Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[John Mullally]

Are they just regular sheep prior to that?

Probably all three. We were chosen in Him before the foundation of world. And obviously we had to be born. There’s also a change at conversion.

Sheep is a metaphor. I already gave you my answer. Your answer was a dodge - you might as well as not answered.

 

[Hammster]

Sheep is a metaphor. I already gave you my answer. Your answer was a dodge - you might as well as not answered.

I really don’t know where this hatred comes from. I’m asking questions based on your statements. And I answered your question. I’m not sure what type of response you wanted, but it was given in good faith.

 

[Hammster]

Someone becomes Jesus's sheep when they qualify by following Jesus - which is conversion.

Back to this. Are they someone else’s sheep before following, or are they goats, as some assert?

 

[John Mullally]

Back to this. Are they someone else’s sheep before following, or are they goats, as some assert

Search the scripture and get back to me.

Back to what? You dodged my last question. And you did not respond at all to a couple of other recent ones. If you are not answering my questions, then this has become an interrogation.

 

[Hammster]

Back to what? You are dodging my questions.

What questions am I dodging?

 

[John Mullally]

What questions am I dodging?

Specificially question 401. Shown below.

I was wondering when do you see someone becoming "In Him" which is the phrase used in the Epistles? Is at conversion, birth, or from the foundation of the world?

I say it is at conversion.

Probably all three. We were chosen in Him before the foundation of world. And obviously we had to be born. There’s also a change at conversion.

Becoming "In Him" is one event - not three events. If you don't know when you became "In Him", then I don't know why you post so often on Soteriology.

Good bye.,

 

[Hammster]

Specificially question 401. Shown below.

I say it is at conversion.

If you don't know when you became "In Him", then I don't know why you post so often on Soteriology.

Good bye.,

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
— Ephesians 1:4

 

[John Mullally]

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
— Ephesians 1:4

If Paul was are in Christ before the foundation of the world, Paul would not have said this:

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.​

​

And I don't think Paul was talking about their birth dates or else he would mention age.

 

[Hammster]

If Paul was are in Christ before the foundation of the world, Paul would not have said this:

Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.​

​

And I don't think Paul was talking about their birth dates or else he would mention age.

You dismissed my previous answer, even though it was more thorough. So…

 

[John Mullally]

You dismissed my previous answer, even though it was more thorough. So…

How was your previous answer better? It used the word probably, was vague, and if anything it had becoming"In Him" as three events. Paul's statement in Romans 16:7 shows it as one event.

 

[Hammster]

How was your previous answer better? It used the word probably and if anything it had becoming"In Him" as three events. Pauls statement in Romans 16:7 shows it as one event.

How about trying to have an actual conversation and ask for clarification?

Paul talks about it in Ephesians as if it was a done deal in the past. He also talks about it in temporal terms. So there’s a point of view issue. On one hand, from God’s point of view, it happened in eternity past. From our point of view it happened when we put our faith in Christ.

 

[John Mullally]

How about trying to have an actual conversation and ask for clarification?

Ha, Ha. You are the one asking questions non-stop. You term it as "Cross-Examination".

Paul talks about it in Ephesians as if it was a done deal in the past. He also talks about it in temporal terms. So there’s a point of view issue. On one hand, from God’s point of view, it happened in eternity past. From our point of view it happened when we put our faith in Christ.

None of this view junk-ola is scripture. Romans 16:7 indicates we are not "In Christ" from eternity past.

The whole book of Ephesians was written to particular individuals as much as it was written to saved Christians, who Paul identifies as the "faithful in Christ" in Ephesians 1:1. Ephesians 1:1-14 deals with the destiny of saved Christians.

 

[Hammster]

Ha, Ha. You are the one asking questions non-stop. You term it as "Cross-Examination".

I don’t mind the questions, FWIW. I love to defend what I believe. I’m not afraid to be challenged.

None of this view junk-ola is scripture. Romans 16:7 indicates we are not "In Christ" from eternity past.

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
— Ephesians 1:4

It’s both.

The whole book of Ephesians was written to particular individuals as much as it was written to saved Christians, who Paul identifies as the "faithful in Christ" in Ephesians 1:1. Ephesians 1:1-14 deals with the destiny of saved Christians.

I’m not sure of your reason for pointing this out.

 

[John Mullally]

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
— Ephesians 1:4

It’s both.

When Calvinist talk about God's view and man's view, they frequently go to where two contradictory things are true at once like you did. The term for that is "fallacy". I don't believe in fallacies.

The whole book of Ephesians was written to particular individuals as much as it was written to saved Christians, who Paul identifies as the "faithful in Christ" in Ephesians 1:1. Ephesians 1:1-14 deals with the destiny of saved Christians.

I’m not sure of your reason for pointing this out.

Because Ephesians 1:1-14 is about the destiny of saved Christians (the letter is addressed to THEM) and is not about individuals that God predestines to be saved Christians.

 

[Hammster]

When Calvinist talk about God's view and man's view, they frequently go to where two contradictory things are true at once. The term for that is "fallacy". I don't believe in fallacies.

Actually, we realize that two things can happen at once where two views are happening. For instance

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
— Genesis 50:20

Here we see God’s plan and man’s plan at the same time.

Also,

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

God planned it, and insured it would happen, but man is responsible.

So man makes a choice to trust Christ. His decision. But we also see that God makes a decision.

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
— Ephesians 1:4

Because Ephesians 1:1-14 is about the destiny of saved Christians (the letter is addressed to THEM) and is not about individuals that God predestines.

Well, Paul sees it differently.

 

[John Mullally]

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
— Ephesians 1:4

Ephesians was written to the "faithful in Christ". So he chose the the "faithful in Christ" to be in Him from before the foundation of the world.

 

[Hammster]

Ephesians was written to the "faithful in Christ". So he chose the the "faithful in Christ" to be in Him from before the foundation of the world.

I see. He rewards good people.

 

[John Mullally]

Ephesians was written to the "faithful in Christ". So he chose the the "faithful in Christ" to be in Him from before the foundation of the world.

I see. He rewards good people.

You are putting words in my mouth again. This is from Merriam-Websters:

put words in/into someone's mouth​

idiom​

​

: to suggest that someone said or meant something that he or she did not actually say or mean​

 

[Hammster]

You are putting words in my mouth again. This is from Merriam-Websters:

put words in/into someone's mouth​

idiom​

​

: to suggest that someone said or meant something that he or she did not actually say or mean​

I apologize then. Your post indicates that His choice of them being “in Him” from before the foundation of the earth is because they are faithful. Faithful people are those who have done something good.

What other conclusion should I draw?

 

[bbbbbbb]

That’s why I didn’t want to jump the gun.

You said

Taking this at face value, this means that someone doesn’t become a sheep until conversion, correct?

There are two thoughts about that. Some prefer to believe that everyone is born a goat and then decides to meet God's terms (i.e. accept Jesus into their heart) and become a sheep. Others believe that, as in nature, goats are born goats and cannot be genetically modified to become sheep and thus, those who are born sheep always will remain sheep. It becomes quite dicey when the theology supports a concept of goats becoming sheep, but then later becoming goats again, with the possibility of changing species back and forth at will.

Supporting the second view is Jesus' statement in Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’