Is there Biblical support for praying to the Saints?

[St_Worm2]

that wasn't the point. the point was that communication between the living and the departed is possible if God wills it to be so.

Protestants would agree, of course (we believe that anything is possible w/God), but how do we know that this particular type of communication (from the living here on earth to the departed in Heaven) 1. can actually happen and, especially 2. that it is ordained by God and is therefore His will for us, since we are neither instructed in the Bible to pray to/petition departed saints from here, nor is there any Biblical evidence that such a thing was ever practiced (none that I am aware of anyway)?

Again, it's this kind of Biblical evidence that we Protestants look for as proof.

Thanks!

--David

 

[Anthony70]

Prayers to the Saints seems to be a thing you solely accept based on tradition which doesn’t mean that it’s not true but the Bible doesn’t seem to say anything for or against it. I myself am not sure of it’s good to do so I don’t do it.

 

[Tigger45]

Would it be fair to say that not praying to saints is actually a Protestant tradition? The better I understand the subject properly, there is nothing in scripture that forbids praying to the Saints.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Protestants would agree, of course (we believe that anything is possible w/God), but how do we know that this particular type of communication (from the living here on earth to the departed in Heaven) 1. can actually happen and, especially 2. that it is ordained by God and is therefore His will for us, since we are neither instructed in the Bible to pray to/petition departed saints from here, nor is there any Biblical evidence that such a thing was ever practiced (none that I am aware of anyway)?

Again, it's this kind of Biblical evidence that we Protestants look for as proof.

Thanks!

--David

well, it is in Maccabees. I was just trying to keep it in the Scripture that Protestants use.

but I will add, the Bible also never calls God a Trinity either. never says Three Persons in One Nature. those come from the Fathers after the NT books. so why can you trust the tradition with that, but not with prayer to the saints?

 

[Anthony70]

well, it is in Maccabees. I was just trying to keep it in the Scripture that Protestants use.

but I will add, the Bible also never calls God a Trinity either. never says Three Persons in One Nature. those come from the Fathers after the NT books. so why can you trust the tradition with that, but not with prayer to the saints?

There is prayers for the dead in 2 Maccabees but nothing I know of about prayers to saints.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There is prayers for the dead in 2 Maccabees but nothing I know of about prayers to saints.

there is also Judas Maccabaeus interacting with Onias and Jeremiah, both of whom were already dead.

 

[Anthony70]

there is also Judas Maccabaeus interacting with Onias and Jeremiah, both of whom were already dead.

Well yes they came to him in a dream but he didn’t pray to them.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Is there anything supporting this practice in any of the books of the LXX OT or the NT?

No nothing at all lk16

 

[Anthony70]

No nothing at all lk16

What does Ik16 mean?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well yes they came to him in a dream but he didn’t pray to them.

how do you define prayer?

 

[Anthony70]

how do you define prayer?

Prayer is when you give thanks or make a request to a higher power like God. Jeremiah and Onias came to Judas Maccabeus in a dream. Judas did not pray to them, they came to him.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Prayer is when you give thanks or make a request to a higher power like God. Jeremiah and Onias came to Judas Maccabeus in a dream. Judas did not pray to them, they came to him.

so if God comes to you, and you dialogue with Him, that is not prayer?

 

[Anthony70]

so if God comes to you, and you dialogue with Him, that is not prayer?

I believe it would be called talking. If I talked to you in person does that mean I am praying to you?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I believe it would be called talking. If I talked to you in person does that mean I am praying to you?

depends on what we are talking about. but it certainly can be.

 

[AMM]

I believe it would be called talking. If I talked to you in person does that mean I am praying to you?

I "pray" to my priest, to my girlfriend, to my friends, when I ask them to intercede for me and pray for me. Depends on how you define the term "pray"

 

[icxn]

Prayer is when you give thanks or make a request to a higher power like God. Jeremiah and Onias came to Judas Maccabeus in a dream. Judas did not pray to them, they came to him.

Today we celebrate the memory of Apostle Timothy (one of the seventy). Here's how we address (pray to?) and ask of him:

Since thou hadst been instructed in uprightness thoroughly and wast vigilant in all things, thou wast clothed with a good conscience as befitteth one holy. Thou didst draw from the Chosen Vessel ineffable mysteries; and having kept the Faith, thou didst finish a like course, O Hieromartyr and Apostle Timothy. Intercede with Christ God that our souls be saved.​

Do you find that offensive?

 

[Anthony70]

I just found this Luke 16:27-28
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

So the rich man in hades prays to Abraham to grant him a request. The rich man is not rebuked for praying to him for praying and worship is different. So I believe this parable supports the idea of praying to Saints.

 

[AMM]

I just found this Luke 16:27-28
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

So the rich man in hades prays to Abraham to grant him a request. The rich man is not rebuked for praying to him for praying and worship is different. So I believe this parable supports the idea of praying to Saints.

I agree. We don't worship the saints, we worship God

 

[~Anastasia~]

The definition of "prayer" is one common stumbling block. Sometimes it gets all mixed up with "worship" ... someone mentioned giving thanks. And our hymns often praise too, what God does in the Saint.

But properly - to pray - is just to ask. We ask them to pray for us, since "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" ... and one can't get more righteous than someone beyond temptation already in the presence of God.

And the Saints are NOT omnipresent or omniscient. They are in Christ however, and through Him can be aware of whatever He wills. The souls under the altar in Revelation are aware of what is happening (and not happening) in the earth.

Most importantly to Protestants I think is the injunction against necromancy. We do not, we must never, seek to actually meet and have conversation with any departed person. Just like the Transfiguration or dreams mentioned, if God willed it and sent them, it could happen of course. But we never try to make such things happen or expect them, and our first thought if they did happen would be to carefully suspect it could be demonic or some other source.

We simply ask the Saints to pray to God for us, knowing that if it is God's will, He can let them be aware of the requests. And of course it is His will and commandment that we pray for and love one another, so that's a reasonable understanding of what we see actually happen - that such prayers are indeed often very effective.

 

[abacabb3]

It's Biblically beyond dispute the saints pray for us in heaven:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed (Rev 6:9-11).

The question is whether (Bibically) the saints specifically hear our own petitions for them to forward to God. This now becomes a question of Canon. in 2 Macc 12, Judas Maccabeus communicates with the prophet Jeremiah in a dream. It also becomes a question of interpretation. James 5 says that a prayer of a righteous man avails much. Christ teaches that GOd is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Mark 15:34-36 states that the Jews honestly thought that Christ was calling for Elijah's intercession.

For those who doubt that the Orthodox interpret these Scriptures rightly, the Jews themselves had prayers to the saints in ancient times and this is mainstream history.

So, while there is no explicit "pray to the saints" verse, there is neither an "abortion is evil" verse. Rather, we have Scriptures that point to it an universal Judeo-Christian tradition that affirmed it until the 1500s. So, you're a conspiracy theorist if you doubt it.