Is there anything wrong with an intellectual faith?

[Andy centek]

I have a particular interest in the philosophical and intellectual aspects of the Christian religion, but at the same time, I feel like it's a dead faith to me. Allow me to elaborate. I used to obsess with learning everything I could about Christianity and made sure I had it all right, but multiple times I felt like the Pharisees in the Bible who certainly focused on getting everything right but still missed the point. Also, I feel like there can be a sense of pride or arrogance among the more intellectually inclined, which is what drew me to focus more on introversion and being Spirit-filled. I also started embracing more theologically diverse denominations as I am uncertain about what I believe aside from the basic tenets of the Christian faith that we all share.

Are intellectualism and attempting to understand everything necessarily bad things?

 

[Andy centek]

Faithpilgrim:

The first place that the word faith is used in the King James is here:
Pro_1:3-6 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.Wisdom cries without; she utters her voice in the streets: So that you incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; For the LORD gives wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Faith then demands that ones mind (ear) is where faith is gotten from. However, that faith must be centered on God and His Christ Jesus.
One can receive the wrong kind of faith if it is not center on God and His Christ. This is a gift Given through the Holy Spirit.

Blessiings
Andy Centek

 

[Johnsloan]

Agreed. Good works are the product of repentance and not the cause of it.

Christs good works caused us all onto good works

 

[Major1]

Christs good works caused us all onto good works

IMO, it was not the good works that Christ did that prompts us yo do good work, but instead it is the fact the he sacrificed His life for us to be saved from the judgment that
is the motivator for us.

But that is just me and I would not debate it one way or the other.

 

[Johnsloan]

IMO, it was not the good works that Christ did that prompts us yo do good work, but instead it is the fact the he sacrificed His life for us to be saved from the judgment that
is the motivator for us.

But that is just me and I would not debate it one way or the other.

You contradict your self in this comment. You tell me I am wrong then tell me what it is. Then you contradict yourself.

 

[Andy centek]

Christ good works?

What has works have to do with spiritual salvation?

 

[Andy centek]

WORKS

Rom_4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God.

Rom_9:32-33 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense: and whosoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense: and whosoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed.

Gal 2:15-21 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make Myself a transgressor.

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in Me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved Me, and gave Himself for Me.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Andy Centek

 

[Major1]

You contradict your self in this comment. You tell me I am wrong then tell me what it is. Then you contradict yourself.

no sir. No contradiction at all. Simply your lack of understanding Bible truths.

May the Lord bless you.

 

[Major1]

Christ good works?

What has works have to do with spiritual salvation?

NOTHING!

Good works are the result of being saved and NOT the cause of being saved.

 

[paul becke]

I have a particular interest in the philosophical and intellectual aspects of the Christian religion, but at the same time, I feel like it's a dead faith to me. Allow me to elaborate. I used to obsess with learning everything I could about Christianity and made sure I had it all right, but multiple times I felt like the Pharisees in the Bible who certainly focused on getting everything right but still missed the point. Also, I feel like there can be a sense of pride or arrogance among the more intellectually inclined, which is what drew me to focus more on introversion and being Spirit-filled. I also started embracing more theologically diverse denominations as I am uncertain about what I believe aside from the basic tenets of the Christian faith that we all share.

Are intellectualism and attempting to understand everything necessarily bad things?

In general, yes, if you mean the kind of intellectualism indistinguishable from that of Academia, as we know it. However, I have just read a fascinating article concerning the misunderstanding, and underestimation of Pope Francis, who was four years into his doctorate but, on being called to become a bishop, stopped his work on it.

The article :
New book looks at intellectual history of Francis, and why he is 'pope of polarity'
... explains that Francis, through the works of the theologian, Romano Guardini, had come to understand that spiritual truth tended to reside in a tension between apparent opposites, and also that abstract truths, not rooted in the reality of daily life, i.e akin to the 'wisdom' of the scribes and Pharisees of Christ's day, were anathema to the pastoral theology that reflects Jesus' teaching and mission (to bring good news to the poor, doesn't immediately suggest canon law does it ?).

To his critics today, some of whom, by the way, in their rancorous attacks on him, seem to be designating him as a renegade - think today's Mass Gospel and hell-fire - he is just confusing everyone.

There is a sovereign irony to these 'contrasts', as they are apparently called - I should have thought 'paradoxes' to be 'le mot juste' - in that they reflect what seems to have been occurring in quantum physics, and which Niels Bohr dilated upon with great delight, i.e. the deeper the truth the more paradoxical it will be. 'But is the theory crazy enough to be true?' he would ask ! Some wonderful quotes from him here :

Niels Bohr Quotes (Author of The Philosophical Writings of Niels Bohr, Vol. 1)

All the mainstream religions have noted that ultimately the divine things, the spiritual realities, are inexpressible; as NDEers put it, we simply do not have words for experiences with which we have no acquaintance here below. In his book on comparative religion, Aldous Huxley quotes from many sources, Christian and otherwise. One that tickled me,as being a rather unhelpful response, was was given by the Bayazid of Bistun to a friend of his who was knocking on his door. After almost giving up, a vice called out : 'Is anyone her but God ?'(!!!!)

But the incarnational thing in terms of daily life is pivotal, and seems to me to have been what Graham Greene was aiming at. Life is messy. God doesn't change his message on that account, but He does deeply and compassionately understand our difficulties, here below, in this vale of tears : difficulties tending to be faced far more by the vast majority of mankind, who are poor (and that is relative to the standards of the society in which we live), and struggling to survive and, when parents, protect their families in this increasingly vicious world in which we live. He came to bring the Good News to the poor, not those who consider themselves righteous and punctilious observers of the law. Christianity as not all about God's throne-room, as Francis and Vatican II have tried to convey. Every best wish.

 

[MoneyGuy]

Trying to understand everything is a desire of the mind in the physical body. This mind is hostile to the things of God, because it cannot understand it. To create a faith based on leaning on our own understanding, even if it is scripture based, is still carnal and of the flesh.

I think it's logical.

 

[Johnsloan]

no sir. No contradiction at all. Simply your lack of understanding Bible truths.

May the Lord bless you.

So dont you think you owe me a better understanding?

 

[paul becke]

Agreed completely.

I can not tell you how many intellectuals I have spoken to who said ...... " I just can not accept the concept of a God man who did do what "you" say Jesus did. My intellect will not allow me to believe that".

To them, I have always said, No your intelligence is not the problem. The problem is YOUR SIN.

As James said in an Epistle, 'The devils believe, and tremble.' I believe that we believe what we want to believe, since the greatest truths are so abstruse and paradoxical ; in the case of Christians, what touches our hearts profoundly, what we find morally beautiful, meaningful to us at a deeper level than we can even understand. Surely, God would have made the world and our purpose in it , to match the beliefs that He, himself, would instilled in us. Why should the truth be cold, hard, not to be wished for, not to be hoped for, undesirable ? In fact, it is living and dynamic, the ultimate reality being the Most Holy Trinity, infinitely personal, and yet also paradoxical.

There are many atheist intellectuals who deliberately close their eyes and stop their ears from all the evidence that today, above all, points to the existence of God. They are truly numbskulls despite their great intellects, like Satan's, though of a lower order. Here is an illuminating(!) quote from eminent geneticist, Richard Lewontin :

‘Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.'

Nuff said, Richard... Thank you.

It seems to me that religious faith, just like secular faith, forms a continuum, a confusion of concepts. When I come into a room in the evening, I switch the light on. I can't be absolutely sure the bulb didn't blow the last time it was switched on, and that anyone has replaced it, since then. But I do have faith/knowledge that there is a first-rate chance that the bulb will be OK.

So, knowledge-faith matches the space-time continuum of physics, in a general way space being a 'thing' in physics, including what is in the world.

In terms of science and technological development, Christendom had a good start on the rest of the world, basically for two reasons :

In Genesis, we are told that God made the world and it was very good ; and in the New Testament we learn that we are made in the image of God. For the eastern religions, the world is illusory, an illusion. Now nothing can hold the other nations back, and our former sense of racial superiority is being shown up as illusory. If I were a bit younger, I would look forward to the day when the countries of sub-Saharan Africa would be permitted by our countries that are currently pillaging them, and preventing their developing at their natural pace, will show the world they are at least equal to best - with perhaps the exception of Israel, who under God's tutelage, moreover, started writing their own history at least 1500 years before the first of the rest of us.

But in heaven, the very notion of worldly intelligence would be laughable, if it made any sense at all there. Why would God deny any of his sons and daughters, his 'other Christs', such a lowly form of intelligence as worldly intelligence, or indeed anything. Only our capacity for love could define our capacity for spiritual knowledge, which would subsume all lower forms of knowledge.

 

[Major1]

So dont you think you owe me a better understanding?

No Sir. I do not owe you one single thing.

However, I will be glad to speak with you on any Bible subject you would like clarification on.

Pick ONE and post it and I will be glad to help you.

 

[Andy centek]

Paul Becke: Greetings; perhaps the following will show that ALL THINGS are under God's control. That was is that which shall be!

To every thing there is a season
And a time to every purpose under the heaven

A time to be born
And a time to die
A time to plant
And a time to pluck up that which is planted

A time to kill
And a time to heal
A time to break down
And a time to build up
A time to weep
And a time to laugh
A time to mourn
And a time to dance

A time to cast away stones
And a time to gather stones together
A time to embrace
And a time to refrain from embracing
A time to get
And a time to lose
A time to keep
And a time to cast away

A time to rend
And a time to sew
A time to keep silence
And a time to speak
A time to love
And a time to hate

A time of war
And a time of peace

Andy Centek

 

[Andy centek]

Christs good works caused us all onto good works

Major 1

I wounder who the US is that you stated? For NOT ALL are called into the body of Christ, only those whom the Father calls, the Elect of God.

Andy Centek

 

[paul becke]

Paul Becke: Greetings; perhaps the following will show that ALL THINGS are under God's control. That was is that which shall be!

To every thing there is a season
And a time to every purpose under the heaven

A time to be born
And a time to die
A time to plant
And a time to pluck up that which is planted

A time to kill
And a time to heal
A time to break down
And a time to build up
A time to weep
And a time to laugh
A time to mourn
And a time to dance

A time to cast away stones
And a time to gather stones together
A time to embrace
And a time to refrain from embracing
A time to get
And a time to lose
A time to keep
And a time to cast away

A time to rend
And a time to sew
A time to keep silence
And a time to speak
A time to love
And a time to hate

A time of war
And a time of peace

Andy Centek

Greetings to you, Andy. Yes, there is something about the strange, deep wisdom of that passage that speaks to the heart of many people, I think. It ought to sound fatalistic, I think, but it doesn't. As you say, it speaks comfortingly of a divine, all-encompassing Providence.

 

[Johnsloan]

No Sir. I do not owe you one single thing.

However, I will be glad to speak with you on any Bible subject you would like clarification on.

Pick ONE and post it and I will be glad to help you.

You are to lay down your life and die to self. So you you sinened up for the work of Christ. You owe everyone eveything. You seen totally confused about what the commision and calling of Christ is.

 

[Major1]

You are to lay down your life and die to self. So you you sinened up for the work of Christ. You owe everyone eveything. You seen totally confused about what the commision and calling of Christ is.

I owe Jesus Christ everything.

I asked you if there was a Bible subject you need to have clarified.

Is there? Certainly your understanding of the atonement is flawed, Is that what you would like to discuss?

 

[Major1]

Major 1

I wounder who the US is that you stated? For NOT ALL are called into the body of Christ, only those whom the Father calls, the Elect of God.

Andy Centek

Certainly that is true. For proper context for me, what is the post that you are referring to.