Is there anything wrong with an intellectual faith?

[Arsenios]

Here is an interest


Here is the Wikipedia (fount of all wisdom) entry for metanoia - Metanoia - Wikipedia

There is a decided mental aspect to repentance. However, if one claims to change one's mind regarding something, but does not act upon that change, then one has not really changed one's mind.

One example might suffice. If one is in a large building in which a fire has broken out and alarms go off, one might be inclined to change one's mind concerning the state of the building even though there is no physical evidence for a fire where one might happen to be in the building. Having gained the information regarding the fire, if one continues one's activity and does not act on the information and flees the building then there is no actual repentance.

Repentance is physical - "New information" is but the possibility of it...
Hence the preaching of the cross is the preaching of suffering unto death [blood] for the sake of gaining the Kingdom of Heaven, and is in it doing alone able to drive the "old man" from our being to its [eg his] destruction and death. It is progressive... It is akin to athletic training - Indeed even unto the acquisition of any physical skill - Playing piccallo, for instance! [Sousaphone practice will get off bigger chunks!]

So it is in the living of repentance established across time that we demonstrate our sincerity for change to God, and in this way, we ASK God to change us - Not merely asking in words that any hollywood actor can mouth with full emotional conviction, but instead by ammendment of life, our own life, insofar as we have strength to do so... And in this manner, we ask ONTOLOGICALLY - Verbal asking is but a start - A feeble start... God will provide us the strength we need to do His Will...

Arsenios

 

[bbbbbbb]

Repentance is physical - "New information" is but the possibility of it...
Hence the preaching of the cross is the preaching of suffering unto death [blood] for the sake of gaining the Kingdom of Heaven, and is in it doing alone able to drive the "old man" from our being to its [eg his] destruction and death. It is progressive... It is akin to athletic training - Indeed even unto the acquisition of any physical skill - Playing piccallo, for instance! [Sousaphone practice will get off bigger chunks!]

So it is in the living of repentance established across time that we demonstrate our sincerity for change to God, and in this way, we ASK God to change us - Not merely asking in words that any hollywood actor can mouth with full emotional conviction, but instead by ammendment of life, our own life, insofar as we have strength to do so... And in this manner, we ask ONTOLOGICALLY - Verbal asking is but a start - A feeble start... God will provide us the strength we need to do His Will...

Arsenios

I think we are in essential agreement. Repentance results in a definite physical manifestation in our lives as God gives us understanding and opportunities to do the good works He has prepared for us to do (Ephesians 2:10). It is impossible to have true repentance without a radical change of mind resulting in a radically different physical life.

 

[OkieIko]

I enjoy intellectual thought and classical music so I don't fit in to most Christian churches these days. The churches I would "fit in" to have almost altogether denied the resurrection and deity of Christ, or maybe Catholic. I don't mind Catholicism, in most respects. I actually like some of the rituals and music though don't agree with some other aspects.

But in general, I like classical music and opera, and also enjoy the intellectual study and conversation of the Gospels. So I must be lost, right? And I'm a working class truck driver. What a screwed up world up we live in. And, yes, straight as an arrow. And, no, I'm not a white supremacist or nazi.

 

[Major1]

I think we are in essential agreement. Repentance results in a definite physical manifestation in our lives as God gives us understanding and opportunities to do the good works He has prepared for us to do (Ephesians 2:10). It is impossible to have true repentance without a radical change of mind resulting in a radically different physical life.

Agreed. Good works are the product of repentance and not the cause of it.

 

[Major1]

I enjoy intellectual thought and classical music so I don't fit in to most Christian churches these days. The churches I would "fit in" to have almost altogether denied the resurrection and deity of Christ, or maybe Catholic. I don't mind Catholicism, in most respects. I actually like some of the rituals and music though don't agree with some other aspects.

But in general, I like classical music and opera, and also enjoy the intellectual study and conversation of the Gospels. So I must be lost, right? And I'm a working class truck driver. What a screwed up world up we live in. And, yes, straight as an arrow. And, no, I'm not a white supremacist or nazi.

My dear friend, a person is lost when they reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

IF you are involved in a church that denies YOU might want to reconsider your own personal belief on that fact because without the resurrection their is NO salvation.

 

[Arsenios]

My dear friend, a person is lost when they reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

IF you are involved in a church that denies YOU might want to reconsider your own personal belief on that fact because without the Resurrection their is NO Salvation.

Good point... It is not our intellectual understanding that saves us, but Christ Who IS the Truth gives us our Salvation... Christ IS the Resurrection... And until you encounter the Truth as the Person Who is Christ, your intellectual grasp will fall very short of the Reality of God, and you will be left with a nice aesthetic of a nuanced mind and beautiful classical music... There is nothing exactly wrong with nuance and its musical aesthetics, but Christians are Called to become One with the Creator of ALL Creation Who created nuance and mind and music, you see...

And I have not yet met the man of intellect alone who understands the Truth as a Person... Repentance from evil unto what is Good is the only way to this Truth, for this Truth Who is a Person (of the Trinity) utterly transcends every nuance however difficult such nuance may be for the (created) human mind to grasp... The only way to understand Truth as a Person - And I say this as an aging and EX Philosopher Major in Plato and Aristotle, is to encounter Him... It simply cannot be INFERRED from the created DATA of human sensations, percepts, or thoughts...

Arsenios

 

[Major1]

Good point... It is not our intellectual understanding that saves us, but Christ Who IS the Truth gives us our Salvation... Christ IS the Resurrection... And until you encounter the Truth as the Person Who is Christ, your intellectual grasp will fall very short of the Reality of God, and you will be left with a nice aesthetic of a nuanced mind and beautiful classical music... There is nothing exactly wrong with nuance and its musical aesthetics, but Christians are Called to become One with the Creator of ALL Creation Who created nuance and mind and music, you see...

And I have not yet met the man of intellect alone who understands the Truth as a Person... Repentance from evil unto what is Good is the only way to this Truth, for this Truth Who is a Person (of the Trinity) utterly transcends every nuance however difficult such nuance may be for the (created) human mind to grasp... The only way to understand Truth as a Person - And I say this as an aging and EX Philosopher Major in Plato and Aristotle, is to encounter Him... It simply cannot be INFERRED from the created DATA of human sensations, percepts, or thoghts...

Arsenios

Agreed completely.

I can not tell you how many intellectuals I have spoken to who said ...... " I just can not accept the concept of a God man who did do what "you" say Jesus did. My intellect will not allow me to believe that".

To them, I have always said, No your intelligence is not the problem. The problem is YOUR SIN.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Agreed completely.

I can not tell you how many intellectuals I have spoken to who said ...... " I just can not accept the concept of a God man who did do what "you" say Jesus did. My intellect will not allow me to believe that".

To them, I have always said, No your intelligence is not the problem. The problem is YOUR SIN.

That was exactly my own problem, having been raised in a liberal church which denied the existence of a personal God and which insisted that nobody is sinful. It was not until God literally intruded into my life to reveal Himself as the personal, holy One who could not tolerate my sinful state that I experienced a total and complete repentance and conversion.

 

[ToBeLoved]

My problem w intellectual faith is that there is really no way to know what is right or truth until after death.

I think that God will tell me many many things I got wrong when I meet Him.

 

[bbbbbbb]

My problem w intellectual faith is that there is really no way to know what is right or truth until after death.

I think that God will tell me many many things I got wrong when I meet Him.

I disagree. I have met many individuals who have a purely intellectual faith and are absolutely certain about their understanding of the truth. Although I think they could be misguided, their faith is solid and unshakeable.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I disagree. I have met many individuals who have a purely intellectual faith and are absolutely certain about their understanding of the truth. Although I think they could be misguided, their faith is solid and unshakeable.

I think we all believe we have truth, but I think God will tell us different when we get to heaven if we ask if our theology is truth.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think we all believe we have truth, but I think God will tell us different when we get to heaven if we ask if our theology is truth.

I wonder if we will remember much of our sins and errors when we get to heaven.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I wonder if we will remember much of our sins and errors when we get to heaven.

Well God tells us that once we repent and our sin is forgiven it is cast as far as the east is from the west to be remembered no more.

So I think God will use it as a teaching experience myself and then it will be gone.

 

[Arsenios]

Is there anything wrong with an intellectual faith?

Nothing at all, unless, of course, you compare and contrast it with an ONTOLOGICAL FAITH...

I mean, does God want a Holy People?
Or does He prefer a bunch of intellectual assenters?

Arsenios

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

When mysticism appeared in the institutional Church near the start of the Middle Ages, one of the Church fathers of the time, who was faithful to God, wrote and criticised the change from an intellectual approach to faith to a mystical approach to God, which he felt that was not supported in Scripture. (The History of Christian Thought, p211).

 

[prodromos]

When mysticism appeared in the institutional Church near the start of the Middle Ages, one of the Church fathers of the time, who was faithful to God, wrote and criticised the change from an intellectual approach to faith to a mystical approach to God, which he felt that was not supported in Scripture. (The History of Christian Thought, p211).

Do you mind providing the context? Who was the Church Father and what was his response?
What too is this "institutional Church" you refer to?

 

[Arsenios]

When mysticism appeared in the institutional Church near the start of the Middle Ages, one of the Church fathers of the time, who was faithful to God, wrote and criticised the change from an intellectual approach to faith to a mystical approach to God, which he felt that was not supported in Scripture. (The History of Christian Thought, p211).

Paul wrote in around 50AD +or- "We are holding the Mystery of the Church in a purified conscience."

Latin Scholasticism tried to explain the Faith as a logical (eg legalistic) system where they are the authority of its enforcement... They rejected "Mysticism" as a consequence, except for their own "Mystics"... The Church historically has always been itself a Mysterey of Mysteries... The very word for the Sacraments in the Orthodox Christian Faith has always been, and is to this day, the Holy Mysteries...

Arsenios

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul wrote in around 50AD +or- "We are holding the Mystery of the Church in a purified conscience."

Latin Scholasticism tried to explain the Faith as a logical (eg legalistic) system where they are the authority of its enforcement... They rejected "Mysticism" as a consequence, except for their own "Mystics"... The Church historically has always been itself a Mysterey of Mysteries... The very word for the Sacraments in the Orthodox Christian Faith has always been, and is to this day, the Holy Mysteries...

Arsenios

The mysticism that I am referring to is the type that is similar to the mysticism of the New Age movement. Both come from the same spirit, and it is not the Holy Spirit.

 

[Arsenios]

The mysticism that I am referring to is the type that is similar to the mysticism of the New Age movement. Both come from the same spirit, and it is not the Holy Spirit.

The mysticism of the New Age Movement is imaginative in its practice...

The Mystery of the Faith of Christ is not...

And the mysticism of the New age Movement is NOT that of the Christian Faith...

They are fundamentally opposed...

Read "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church" by Vladimir Lossky if you desire to understand the difference...

Arsenios

 

[Andy centek]

Trying to understand everything is a desire of the mind in the physical body. This mind is hostile to the things of God, because it cannot understand it. To create a faith based on leaning on our own understanding, even if it is scripture based, is still carnal and of the flesh.