Is there anybody in Heaven?

[Husky7]

Firstly, the story is a parable using the Rabbinbical language of the day.

Do you really know what 'soul' is?

Biblically, it is the life, locked in the blood. 'It' dies at physical death

Check out the verses for yourself

Numbers 23:10 The soul dies at physical death
Judges 16:30 The soul dies at physical death
Ezekiel 18:4 The whole person who sins will die.

Genesis 2:7 (whole person is a soul)
Deuteronomy 12:23 The blood IS the soul.
Levitis 17:11 The blood contains or is the vehicle of soul.

So your mis informed statement is an absurdity, because to the Hebrew mindset, there is nothing alive about a corpse and you cannot push the Greek idea from a pagan source into the biblicval definition of soul, even though you love to, I suggest you reject any pagan notion and idea and return to the Hebrew definitions about which you write.

exactly.

 

[NJBeliever]

Firstly, the story is a parable using the Rabbinbical language of the day.

Do you really know what 'soul' is?

Biblically, it is the life, locked in the blood. 'It' dies at physical death

Check out the verses for yourself

Numbers 23:10 The soul dies at physical death
Judges 16:30 The soul dies at physical death
Ezekiel 18:4 The whole person who sins will die.

Genesis 2:7 (whole person is a soul)
Deuteronomy 12:23 The blood IS the soul.
Levitis 17:11 The blood contains or is the vehicle of soul.

So your mis informed statement is an absurdity, because to the Hebrew mindset, there is nothing alive about a corpse and you cannot push the Greek idea from a pagan source into the biblicval definition of soul, even though you love to, I suggest you reject any pagan notion and idea and return to the Hebrew definitions about which you write.

You're talking about pagan notions but then you're basing your argument on the "Hebrew mindset" which is irrelevant to this discussion. I am 100% basing my statement on the Bible. First of all, this story was not a parable. Secondly, Jesus said a man died and went to hell. He said another man died and went to Abraham's bosom. That is what the Bible says.

Paul said he knew a man who went to the third Heaven. 100% biblical.

Enoch was taken up by God. 100% Biblical.

There are souls of martyrs under the altar of God, who speak to God and receive robes. 100% Biblical.

There is a multitude of people in Heaven singing praises and wearing robes in Revelation chapter 7. 100% biblical.

Elijah went up to Heaven in a whirlwind. 100% Biblical.

All this debating over "what is the soul" is pointless. There are people who go to Heaven in the Bible. It's already happened. Once again, this debate should just be over.

 

[Zadok7000]

Take the time to read this

Rich Man and Lazarus; Parable of Jesus

bibleexplained.com?

 

[Zadok7000]

Why do you keeping raising the point 'no flesh anymore? We both aagree that te new resurrection body will be a 'not of flesh and blood' but a new incorruptable one as in 1 Cor 15 so please leave that alone.

So, based on your idea that Old Testament people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are 'alive, how do you explain Peter's teaching that David is still dead and buried and did not ascend to heaven and also Christ's own teaching in John 3:13 which states:

John 3:13 (New International Version)

13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]

Jesus said no man has gone into heaven. This shoots down your theory that they are in heaven. So are you calling Jesus a liar?

Stop with this sophomoric hyperbole.

Jesus preached to the spirits in prison...did He visit graves in the ground? Hardly. He "opened the door to heaven" with His sacrifice. Hence the "graves being opened" in Matt. 27:52-53; the "saints which slept" appeared to the people who knew them to witness to them. They didn't go "back into the ground" afterward.

Zeke (and I) keep talking about flesh not coming back because that is the only thing in the ground. There is literally nothing left to "raise". Bodies decompose and disappear. The flesh bodies of David, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc are long gone. They are not in their graves in any way shape or form. They are with Him in heaven right now. Absent from the flesh body, present with the Lord.

 

[Husky7]

Going back to the Luke 23:43 controversy:
Here is further proof that punctuation is not inspired. Acts 19:12 KJV “So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.” In this verse we see the diseases departed from the sick handkerchiefs or aprons. The comma should have been placed after the word “sick”. There are many such examples through even the King James Bible as well as other translations.
Let’s look at just one more that proves beyond all doubt that punctuation is not inspired by God. This following example involves chapters, verses as well as a comma. Matthew 28:1 reads, “In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.”
The end of the Sabbath which is sunset and dawn are twelve hours apart, so why the apparent contradiction in the above verse? The answer is found in the translation of this passage. By reorganizing the last verse of Matthew 27 and the first verse of Matthew 28, the apparent ambiguity completely disappears. See Matthew 27:62-66.
In Matthew 27:62, a request for a guard on the tomb was made on the Sabbath (the day after the preparation) and that the request was for a guard until the third day. By simply moving the text “in the end of the Sabbath,” from the beginning of Matthew 28:1 to the end of Matthew 27:66, which is where it should have been placed when punctuation and chapters and verse were added, we would have the following.
Matthew 27:66 “So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch in the end of the sabbath.”
Matthew 28:1 “As it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.”
It was the watch guarding the tomb that began at the end of the Sabbath. Since Jesus was to rise the third day, the Roman guards were put in place immediately at the end of the Sabbath because they anticipated that the body of Jesus would be stolen by the Jews sometime on Sunday.

Four reasons why the comma is wrongly placed in Luke 23:43

1. Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. He went to the tomb.
2. Crucifixion is very cruel and it normally takes several days to die and so the thief did not die that day which is why they broke his legs. John 19:31-33 NIV “Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.”
3. Right after His resurrection on Sunday morning, Jesus said to Mary, “I have not yet ascended to My Father.” John 20:17. Thus on Sunday, Jesus had not yet ascended to Paradise. “Paradise” is in heaven where God and “the tree of life” are. Revelation 2:7 “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Revelation 22:1-2 “And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
4. Jesus would not contradict Himself or the rest of the Bible. He said previously that believers go to Heaven “on the last day” when He “comes again.” John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 14:1-3.

 

[Husky7]

But most of Revelation is still future. In Revelation, it is the martyrs of the church (of the last 2000 years) who are asking to be avenged. They are asking God for the Day of the Lord to begin, for judgment of the wicked.

That's when it begins. The church is given her garments of salvation, having endured the great tribulation that began with Israel's desolation, and is removed to the throne of God before the Day of the Lord begins and more martyrs die at the hands of the anti-christ.

During the “fifth seal,” John “saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood.” This scene is symbolic, representing the martyrs who died for their steadfast faith in Jesus Christ. God said to Cain after he murdered his brother Abel, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries unto me from the ground.” Genesis 4:10. These words parallel what John saw in Revelation 6. The blood of Abel did not literally cry out from the ground. Neither are there actual souls underneath a real altar in heaven. The “souls under the altar” scene occurs right after “the fourth seal” scene. There “Hell” is seen following “a pale horse” ridden by “Death.” Revelation 6:7-8. Again, this is obviously symbolic and refers to those martyred for their faith and whose deaths cry out to God for just retribution. Those slain are represented as being told to “wait” for God’s judgment and their future reward at the second coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[Husky7]

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



No soul sleep.

This is the ONLY place in the entire New Testament that suggests that a lost soul goes into a fiery hell immediately at death. This idea is not taught anywhere else - not by Matthew, Mark, John, James, Peter or Paul.

Jesus often told parables. While containing many practical lessons, parables are not meant to be taken literally. Here are 9 reasons why the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is definitely a parable:

1. Jesus often began his parables in the book of Luke with the phrase, “a certain...” See Luke 12:16; 13:6; 14:16; 15:11; 16:1; 19:11-12; 20:9(KJV).
2. A man cannot literally enter into “the bosom” or chest of Abraham.
3. It is impossible for anyone who is literally burning in fire to carry on a normal conversation.
4. Can those in heaven and hell talk to each other?
5. The rich man was represented as being “bodily” in hell, with eyes, a mouth, a tongue, etc. This is obviously symbolic. If the rich man’s grave was dug up, wouldn’t his body be there? Of course.
6. A real man burning in fire would not ask for a little water to cool his tongue. (He would ask for the fire brigade!)
7. Jesus Christ did not interpret every parable He told. Yet He did interpret the parable of the wheat and the weeds in Matthew 13. In His interpretation of this parable, Jesus said plainly that hell-fire occurs at the end, rather than at death. Read Matthew 13:40.
8. Consciousness at death contradicts the rest of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Psalms 6:5; 115:17; 146:4; etc.
9. 2 Peter 2:9 says that the lost will not be punished until “the day of judgment” which occurs at the end of the 1000 years (see Revelation 20:11-15).

The purpose of this parable was to teach the greedy Pharisees that contrary to their present opinions, the rich are not necessarily blessed and the poor cursed (16:14, 22-23), that a man’s destiny is fixed at death (16:26), that speaking against Him with their “tongues” would result in their going into hell-fire (16:4), and that if they would not believe Moses and the prophets, a resurrection would not convince them (16:29, 31). Thus Jesus declared that we must believe Moses and the prophets. Nowhere in the writings of “Moses and the prophets” do people instantly go to heaven or into hell-fire at death. Why did Jesus use the name Lazarus? Because this parable was also a prophecy. At the end of His life Jesus would resurrect a real person named Lazarus, yet this miracle would still not convince the Pharisees that He was the Messiah. John 11:1-53.
Note: We should interpret parables in the light of the rest of the Bible, rather than the rest of the Bible in the light of one parable.

 

[Swordsmanoffaith]

During the “fifth seal,” John “saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood.” This scene is symbolic, representing the martyrs who died for their steadfast faith in Jesus Christ. God said to Cain after he murdered his brother Abel, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries unto me from the ground.” Genesis 4:10. These words parallel what John saw in Revelation 6. The blood of Abel did not literally cry out from the ground. Neither are there actual souls underneath a real altar in heaven. The “souls under the altar” scene occurs right after “the fourth seal” scene. There “Hell” is seen following “a pale horse” ridden by “Death.” Revelation 6:7-8. Again, this is obviously symbolic and refers to those martyred for their faith and whose deaths cry out to God for just retribution. Those slain are represented as being told to “wait” for God’s judgment and their future reward at the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Yes, I know. They are the souls of those who died as martyrs, just as the Bible says.

Luk 18:7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?

They are told to wait for God's judgment but not their future reward at the second coming of Christ. They are given white robes at the time of the 5th seal.

 

[NJBeliever]

This is the ONLY place in the entire New Testament that suggests that a lost soul goes into a fiery hell immediately at death. This idea is not taught anywhere else - not by Matthew, Mark, John, James, Peter or Paul.

Dude, seriously? With all due respect, at least 4 times in the past 2 pages of this thread I posted that Paul clearly said he knew a man who to Heaven. That ends the discussion. John writes about multitudes which no man can number, in Heaven (and we know they came from Earth since they came out of Great Tribulation). How can this not end the debate??? Seriously. They're in Heaven. Singing..wearing clothes. That's it.

Jesus often told parables. While containing many practical lessons, parables are not meant to be taken literally. Here are 9 reasons why the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is definitely a parable:

1. Jesus often began his parables in the book of Luke with the phrase, “a certain...” See Luke 12:16; 13:6; 14:16; 15:11; 16:1; 19:11-12; 20:9(KJV).

Jesus also never gave ANY character from a parable a proper name. The proper name indicates that this is an account, not a parable.

1. A man cannot literally enter into “the I bosom” or chest of Abraham.

Come on. The Bible is clearly not saying that it's literal. Although so you know, the word for "bosom" does not mean chest. It can also refer to the chest area of the garment that men wore at that time. But either way "bosom" is obviously not literal in this sentence.

It is impossible for anyone who is literally burning in fire to carry on a normal conversationCan those in heaven and hell talk to each other?

You have no warrant to say these things aren't possible. When in the Bible does it say they can't? Especially when Jesus specifically describes how the entire place is set up (one side Hades, one side the Bosom, with a chasm in between). Why should we doubt Jesus' description?

1. The rich man was represented as being “bodily” in hell, with eyes, a mouth, a tongue, etc. This is obviously symbolic. If the rich man’s grave was dug up, wouldn’t his body be there? Of course.
   [*]
   [*]

This of course assumes that are spirit cannot feel things. Jesus repeatedly says that in hell there will be weeping and ganshing of teeth. So clearly things can be felt.

1. A real man burning in fire would not ask for a little water to cool his tongue. (He would ask for the fire brigade!)

Again, just unbiblical speculation. Jesus tells us exactly what the man wanted.

1. Jesus Christ did not interpret every parable He told. Yet He did interpret the parable of the wheat and the weeds in Matthew 13. In His interpretation of this parable, Jesus said plainly that hell-fire occurs at the end, rather than at death. Read Matthew 13:40.

This is just ignoring the context, which is end-times. That parable is talking about the end of the world, not a past event. There will be a future gathering and separation of the wheat and the tares in the last days. That does not reference what happens to people before then. And thinking it through further if this point was true, Jesus would be contradicting what he said about the Rich Man. So that obviously can't be the case.

1. Consciousness at death contradicts the rest of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Psalms 6:5; 115:17; 146:4; etc.

As quoted already, Jesus clearly says Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive, not dead [/quote]

1. 2 Peter 2:9 says that the lost will not be punished until “the day of judgment” which occurs at the end of the 1000 years (see Revelation 20:11-15).[/quote]

Again, out of context. hThat passage is just talking about God's justice. There is no indication that Peter is making an end-times reference. He's just saying, if God didn't spare Sodom and Gomorrah, don't think he's going to spare the unjust of today either. They will all die and be judged like those in the past who died in their sins.

and that if they would not believe Moses and the prophets, a resurrection would not convince them (16:29, 31).

Yes, this point is true.

Thus Jesus declared that we must believe Moses and the prophets. Nowhere in the writings of “Moses and the prophets” do people instantly go to heaven or into hell-fire at death.

That's not the point actually. The point is that if the people do not believe the Word of God through prophets, they are going to reject Christ as well, which the Pharisees were doiung.

Why did Jesus use the name Lazarus? Because this parable was also a prophecy. At the end of His life Jesus would resurrect a real person named Lazarus, yet this miracle would still not convince the Pharisees that He was the Messiah. John 11:1-53.

This is more unbiblical speculation. There is no indication that Jesus was speaking of his friend Lazarus when he said this. Moreover, Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha, was not a beggar! He was not living outside someone's gate. Why would Jesus make up these things about his friend? That is not prophecy! Prophecy has to be true.

People have already gone to Heaven. It's quite clear in Scripture.

 

[Mikecpking]

You're talking about pagan notions but then you're basing your argument on the "Hebrew mindset" which is irrelevant to this discussion. I am 100% basing my statement on the Bible. First of all, this story was not a parable. Secondly, Jesus said a man died and went to hell. He said another man died and went to Abraham's bosom. That is what the Bible says.

It was a parable as many theologians would say based on solid cultural and historical basis. Look into it!

Paul said he knew a man who went to the third Heaven. 100% biblical.

Paul did not know whether it was 'in the body or not. It could well have been a vision; just like the Revelation of John.

Enoch was taken up by God. 100% Biblical.

All it says is God took him. Jesus said in John 3:13 no one has ever been to heaven so that is 100% biblical.

There are souls of martyrs under the altar of God, who speak to God and receive robes. 100% Biblical.

How does a disembodied soul recieve a robe to wear? This is purely a vision; not literal. It can be compared with Gen 4:10 where God hears Abel's blood crying from the ground. Does blood make a sound?

There is a multitude of people in Heaven singing praises and wearing robes in Revelation chapter 7. 100% biblical.

Elijah went up to Heaven in a whirlwind. 100% Biblical.

All this debating over "what is the soul" is pointless. There are people who go to Heaven in the Bible. It's already happened. Once again, this debate should just be over.

You seem to disbelieve a lot of what the bible says about the nature of personhood, what happens in between death and the resurrection and the fact that in 2 places, John 3:13 and Acts 2:29 to 34 where it clearly states people have not ascended to heaven.

So, please explain, what did Jesus mean when he states that no one has gone to Heaven in John 3:13??

 

[Mikecpking]

Stop with this sophomoric hyperbole.

Only, because jesus disagrees with you?

Jesus preached to the spirits in prison...did He visit graves in the ground?

Please do not misrepresent me. I never said the ground, it was the grave (sheol, Hades)

To the Hebrew, Sheol is the abode of the dead and took on a new status as 'rephaim' which, if you like, a 'spirit' so there is no disagreement with the Peter quote (spirits in Prison). The 3 days between the crucifiction and the resurrection, Jesus was in Sheol. No mystery there!

Hardly. He "opened the door to heaven" with His sacrifice. Hence the "graves being opened" in Matt. 27:52-53; the "saints which slept" appeared to the people who knew them to witness to them. They didn't go "back into the ground" afterward.

Zeke (and I) keep talking about flesh not coming back because that is the only thing in the ground. There is literally nothing left to "raise". Bodies decompose and disappear. The flesh bodies of David, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc are long gone. They are not in their graves in any way shape or form. They are with Him in heaven right now. Absent from the flesh body, present with the Lord.

Ah, but Davis is in the Grave as it clearly states in Acts 2:29 to 2:34. The difference is they are alive unto God, but it does not mean they are alive right now as the resurrection (the general one on the Lord's return) has not happened yet.
Jesus clearly states people who are in their graves.

With 'Absent from the flesh body, present with the Lord'; this simple means after Paul dies, his next waking moment will be at the resurrection, not wafting up to heaven. Otherwise, what is the point of a resurrection if we go straight to heaven any way?

 

[NJBeliever]

It was a parable as many theologians would say based on solid cultural and historical basis. Look into it!

I have looked into it. And Jesus never refers to anyone real in parables. In this he refers to a man named Lazarus and Abraham. And discusses a conversation therein. All this lends to it being a historical account and not a parable.

Paul did not know whether it was 'in the body or not. It could well have been a vision; just like the Revelation of John.

Why do people keep saying this? John was in Heaven.

Revelation 4: 1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John was not just having a vision. He was literally in Heaven. In Spirit form, he was actually there.

And besides, Paul never in any way indicates that the man he is referring to "had a vision" that is just unbiblical speculation. Paul says the man went to Heaven, period. Whether it was in body or spirit is irrelevant. He was there. And again, that ends the debate.

All it says is God took him. Jesus said in John 3:13 no one has ever been to heaven so that is 100% biblical.

I believe you have misunderstood that verse. When looking at the verse contextually, there are 2 points you are missing. For one, Jesus is establishing his authority to Nicodemus. Remember the conversation that Jesus is having. He is telling Nicodemus how to get to Heaven. This is obviously extremely important. So Jesus wants Nicodemus to know the importance of it. So let's go back a few verses:

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus is establishing that He has and is, in Heaven and has come up and down to Earth, and thus He can say these things. He is qualified to be our Messiah. No one else has done this.

Now you may think I am just speculating, but remember, much of what Jesus said was direct fulfilment of Old Testament Scripture. And this time is no different:

Deuteronomy 30:12 It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Provers 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?

His Name is Jesus. This verse is Jesus stating that He is this one being spoken of. He is God in human form. Which is why in the same verse He states that He "IS" in Heaven, in present tense. No one else ever can do what He can do. Go up and down from Heaven as He wants.

And that of course leads to point 2) -- The actual meaning of "ascended." The Greek translation means that the person is going up on their own power. Enoch was taken. Elijah went up in a whirlwind. Lazarus was carried by angels. Jesus goes up to Heaven on His own power. So contextually, I think this is the proper meaning of this verse. You cannot try and deny Enoch going to heaven based on this Scripture at all.

How does a disembodied soul recieve a robe to wear? This is purely a vision; not literal.

OK, you and I clearly have vastly different models for BIblical interpetation. There is nothing, IMO, in that passage in Rev 6 to indicate that John did not literally see the souls of martyrs under the altar. Furthermore, he details a conversation they have with The Lord. Why would he make this up? It doesn't even make sense. And I did not say that the souls wore the robes. I said they were given robes and told to "Wait." I don't believe they wore the robes until Chapter 7 when they received their glorified bodies.

It can be compared with Gen 4:10 where God hears Abel's blood crying from the ground. Does blood make a sound?

Yes, yes, yes I do! Why? Because God said it. Again, how can you just change meaning of the Scripture. God says He could hear Abel's blood. THere is nothing grammatical or contextual that indicates God was just exaggerating or making a figure of speech.

You seem to disbelieve a lot of what the bible says about the nature of personhood, what happens in between death and the resurrection and the fact that in 2 places, John 3:13 and Acts 2:29 to 34 where it clearly states people have not ascended to heaven.

So, please explain, what did Jesus mean when he states that no one has gone to Heaven in John 3:13??

I have explained it. I believe the BIble 100%. But you have to study things in context or else you will have seeming contradictions. I noticed you overlooked the multitude in Rev 7 who are in Heaven. I assume you think that was not literal too? The fact of the matter is that many have gone to Heaven already and many more will, as soon as they die. Myself included!

 

[Mikecpking]

I have looked into it. And Jesus never refers to anyone real in parables. In this he refers to a man named Lazarus and Abraham. And discusses a conversation therein. All this lends to it being a historical account and not a parable.




Why do people keep saying this? John was in Heaven.

Revelation 4: 1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John was not just having a vision. He was literally in Heaven. In Spirit form, he was actually there.

And besides, Paul never in any way indicates that the man he is referring to "had a vision" that is just unbiblical speculation. Paul says the man went to Heaven, period. Whether it was in body or spirit is irrelevant. He was there. And again, that ends the debate.



I believe you have misunderstood that verse. When looking at the verse contextually, there are 2 points you are missing. For one, Jesus is establishing his authority to Nicodemus. Remember the conversation that Jesus is having. He is telling Nicodemus how to get to Heaven. This is obviously extremely important. So Jesus wants Nicodemus to know the importance of it. So let's go back a few verses:

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus is establishing that He has and is, in Heaven and has come up and down to Earth, and thus He can say these things. He is qualified to be our Messiah. No one else has done this.

Now you may think I am just speculating, but remember, much of what Jesus said was direct fulfilment of Old Testament Scripture. And this time is no different:

Deuteronomy 30:12 It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Provers 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?

His Name is Jesus. This verse is Jesus stating that He is this one being spoken of. He is God in human form. Which is why in the same verse He states that He "IS" in Heaven, in present tense. No one else ever can do what He can do. Go up and down from Heaven as He wants.

And that of course leads to point 2) -- The actual meaning of "ascended." The Greek translation means that the person is going up on their own power. Enoch was taken. Elijah went up in a whirlwind. Lazarus was carried by angels. Jesus goes up to Heaven on His own power. So contextually, I think this is the proper meaning of this verse. You cannot try and deny Enoch going to heaven based on this Scripture at all.



OK, you and I clearly have vastly different models for BIblical interpetation. There is nothing, IMO, in that passage in Rev 6 to indicate that John did not literally see the souls of martyrs under the altar. Furthermore, he details a conversation they have with The Lord. Why would he make this up? It doesn't even make sense. And I did not say that the souls wore the robes. I said they were given robes and told to "Wait." I don't believe they wore the robes until Chapter 7 when they received their glorified bodies.


Yes, yes, yes I do! Why? Because God said it. Again, how can you just change meaning of the Scripture. God says He could hear Abel's blood. THere is nothing grammatical or contextual that indicates God was just exaggerating or making a figure of speech.



I have explained it. I believe the BIble 100%. But you have to study things in context or else you will have seeming contradictions. I noticed you overlooked the multitude in Rev 7 who are in Heaven. I assume you think that was not literal too? The fact of the matter is that many have gone to Heaven already and many more will, as soon as they die. Myself included!

Just to mention, John had his vision and revelation while on a Grek Island, he had a vision from God, but physically he was on the earth!!!

My main point here is all of relevation is 'picture language' and was a vision from God.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is simply a parable! Jesus was using the theology of the Pharisees to codemn them. The Jewish nation jad already been exposed to the teachings of Plato and Babylonian ideas such as the immortality of the soul, tripartite view of personhood, heaven and hell through interaction with these cultures.

 

[janwoG]

Dear Mikecpking

Jeus spoke to Moses and Eliyah at mount Tabor. He was speaking with living not with dead prophets. Now where they are?

 

[Zadok7000]

Only, because jesus disagrees with you?

It's not me He disagrees with, friend.

 

[addo]

Dear Mikecpking

Jeus spoke to Moses and Eliyah at mount Tabor. He was speaking with living not with dead prophets. Now where they are?

It was a vision.

Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” (Matthew 17:9)
​

The same Greek word for 'vision' is used in other contexts where it is quite clear that they weren't actually real.

 

[Zadok7000]

It was a vision.

Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” (Matthew 17:9)
​

The same Greek word for 'vision' is used in other contexts where it is quite clear that they weren't actually real.

Not only were they not real, but Jesus spoke to people who weren't there...RIIIIIGHT.

 

[SharonL]

What about the verse that says the angels will escourt your soul into Heaven. And again, absent from the body - present with the Lord. What about the visions God gave his deciples of Heaven. What about the verse about Lazarath in the bosom of Abraham speaking to the rich man in Hell. How can we return with Jesus if we are not in HEaven? This earthly body will not be in Heaven.

 

[Mikecpking]

What about the verse that says the angels will escourt your soul into Heaven.

Does not exist.

And again, absent from the body - present with the Lord.

Already answered a few posts ago.

What about the visions God gave his deciples of Heaven. What about the verse about Lazarath in the bosom of Abraham speaking to the rich man in Hell.

Already answered, it was a parable

How can we return with Jesus if we are not in HEaven? This earthly body will not be in Heaven.

The fundamental core central belief in Christianity is the resurrection of the dead, not the immortality of the soul like the pagan Greek philosophers would have us believe.

 

[Mikecpking]

Not only were they not real, but Jesus spoke to people who weren't there...RIIIIIGHT.

The word, 'vision' stands there.. why can't you see it?