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Is there anybody in Heaven?

zeke37

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Ok, well I've shown you before that those "beings" in "heaven" are not actually in heaven.

well Bro...you have shown me nothing of the sort.
You have however shared your opinion

This is how Strong's dictionary defines spirit, and soul:

Strong’s Old Testament Hebrew dictionary definition for Spirit.
H7307 ruach, Pronounced roo'-akh. From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).
Strong’s New Testament Greek dictionary definition for Spirit.
G4151 pneuma, Pronounced pnyoo'-mah. From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
A person’s soul is just simply a living breathing creature. Have you heard the expression; I went to the park and there wasn’t a soul there? A soul just simply means a person and is who and what you are.
Strong’s Old Testament Hebrew dictionary definition for Soul.
H5315 nephesh, Pronounced neh'-fesh. From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental).

Our spirit is basically the breath of life from God. Also, the soul is defined as a person in the bible:
Exodus 1:5 “Seventy souls” went to Egypt.
Acts 2:41 “Three thousand souls” were baptized.
1 Peter 3:20 “Eight souls were saved” in Noah’s day.
no problem there. I too use the strong's

Another thing, the bible proclaims very clearly that the "soul" is mortal and not immortal:
Job 4:17 The Bible calls man mortal.
Revelation 16:3 "Every living soul died in the sea." Souls can die.
Ezekiel 18:4 God said, “The soul that sins, it shall die.”
Exodus 1:5 “Seventy souls” went to Egypt. Souls are people.
Acts 2:41 “Three thousand souls” were baptized. Again, souls are people.
1 Peter 3:20 “Eight souls were saved” in Noah’s day. Again, souls are people.
1 Timothy 6:16 God “only has immortality.” Man is not immortal.
2 Timothy 1:10 “Immortality” comes only “through the gospel.”
Romans 2:7 Christians “seek for immortality.”
1 Corinthians 15:53 At the end, “this mortal” shall “put on immortality.

a person/soul is mortal unless God makes them immortal.
again, no problem

Jesus taught the Resurrection of the dead. He didn't teach that believers would go directly to heaven after they die:
sure He did...you just mis understood as many do...

Matthew 22:23, 29 Jesus rebuked those who said there was “no resurrection.”
Matthew 22:31 Jesus taught “the resurrection of the dead.”
that is one of the places where He taught as I believe (along with Mar12/Luk20) in the parable of the 7 brothers and wife

Luke 14:14 The saints will “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.”
what does recompensed mean?


John 5:28-29 “All who are in their graves” will be resurrected at the second coming of Christ.
to life on earth again....
their spiritual bodies will be the bodies "raised" here then, not heir flesh
I hope you don't believe that the spirits of the dead are in holes in the ground.



John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 All believers will rise “on the last day.”
yeppp....they COME FROM heaven with the Lord

John 11:24 Martha said to Jesus, “I know that he [Lazarus] shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
he'll be back...
but make no mistake that he is in heaven today, waiting with the rest...
Abraham and Lazarus are also there,
waiting to come back in their spiritual/heavenly/angelic/celestial body,
to be raised back to life on earth again


The bible also clearly states that all believers would be resurrected when Jesus returns:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 “The Lord himself shall descend ... the dead ... shall rise ... to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 The saints cry out, “0 death, where is thy sting” when they are resurrected at the second coming of Jesus.
John 14:1-3 Jesus will take us to heaven when He “comes again.”
1 Corinthians 15:12-23 Paul says there is a resurrection of both Christ and the dead, “but every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”
I have no doubt that all believers will be resurrected back to life on earth again,
when Christ comes...no problem! :)

it still does not show your point that the dead do not exist in heaven now.

the bible shows folks in heaven doing things,
so your current understanding is wrong.

the bible also teaches that the dead COME with Him....
not that they are HERE in a hole in the ground until He Comes.
 
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Mikecpking

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well Bro...you have shown me nothing of the sort.
You have however shared your opinion


no problem there. I too use the strong's



a person/soul is mortal unless God makes them immortal.
again, no problem


sure He did...you just mis understood as many do...


that is one of the places where He taught as I believe (along with Mar12/Luk20) in the parable of the 7 brothers and wife


what does recompensed mean?



to life on earth again....
their spiritual bodies will be the bodies "raised" here then, not heir flesh
I hope you don't believe that the spirits of the dead are in holes in the ground.




yeppp....they COME FROM heaven with the Lord


he'll be back...
but make no mistake that he is in heaven today, waiting with the rest...
Abraham and Lazarus are also there,
waiting to come back in their spiritual/heavenly/angelic/celestial body,
to be raised back to life on earth again


The bible also clearly states that all believers would be resurrected when Jesus returns:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 “The Lord himself shall descend ... the dead ... shall rise ... to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 The saints cry out, “0 death, where is thy sting” when they are resurrected at the second coming of Jesus.
John 14:1-3 Jesus will take us to heaven when He “comes again.”
1 Corinthians 15:12-23 Paul says there is a resurrection of both Christ and the dead, “but every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”
I have no doubt that all believers will be resurrected back to life on earth again,
when Christ comes...no problem! :)

it still does not show your point that the dead do not exist in heaven now.

the bible shows folks in heaven doing things,
so your current understanding is wrong.

the bible also teaches that the dead COME with Him....
not that they are HERE in a hole in the ground until He Comes.

But Zeke,
Jesus tells us they are in the graves; not in heaven.

John 5:28 (New International Version)


28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
 
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H

Husky7

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sure He did...you just mis understood as many do...

No he didn't. If he did, prove it to me...where does Jesus teach that in the bible?
what does recompensed mean?

Free Online Dictionary says:
rec·om·pense (r
ebreve.gif
k
prime.gif
schwa.gif
m-p
ebreve.gif
ns
lprime.gif
)
tr.v. rec·om·pensed, rec·om·pens·ing, rec·om·pens·es 1. To award compensation to: recompensed the victims of the accident.
2. To award compensation for; make a return for: recompensed their injuries.

n. 1. Amends made, as for damage or loss.
2. Payment in return for something, such as a service.
I have no doubt that all believers will be resurrected back to life on earth again,
when Christ comes...no problem! :)

it still does not show your point that the dead do not exist in heaven now.

the bible shows folks in heaven doing things,
so your current understanding is wrong.

the bible also teaches that the dead COME with Him....
not that they are HERE in a hole in the ground until He Comes.
I would like to see the verses that you claim say that people are in heaven...also, why are the dead being resurrected if they are already in heaven? The "saints" do not come from heaven to resurrect the living, that just wouldn't make sense!
 
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UpperEschelon

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I came across a really good post on this topic, ironically I think it may have been way earlier in this one, lol. Just though I'd put it here...

"Paul declares that when a Christian dies their souls go immediately to heaven (2 Cor. 5:6-8). The believer is either in their physical body living on earth or has left their material body and have gone into Christ's presence. There is no third option, such as purgatory or "soul sleep." Nowhere does the passage suggest an intermediate state of unconsciousness. Also, while Paul continues at home in the body, he also continues away from home as regards the Lord (present tense); because of this, his fellowship was incomplete (vs. 7). He then goes on to say that a moment of time is coming (aorist) when the situation will be changed and he will be present with the Lord and absent from the body, which is a clear reference to death.

Further, while on the cross Jesus promised the dying thief that he would be with Him in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43). The word paradise is used three times in the New Testament for heaven, where Christ currently resides.

See also (Phil. 1:21-23). Paul's one desire has a twofold object: departure and being with Christ! If departure didn't mean his immediate being with Christ, another construction would've been used. Therefore, it seems impossible that "soul sleep" was in the mind of the Apostle, since his desire was to enjoy the presence of the Lord.

Lastly, believers are given the guarantee that nothing, including death, will ever separate them from their Lord (Rom. 8:38-39). This assures them that they are not abandoned at the time of physical death."
 
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UpperEschelon

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No he didn't. If he did, prove it to me...where does Jesus teach that in the bible?


Free Online Dictionary says:
rec·om·pense (r
ebreve.gif
k
prime.gif
schwa.gif
m-p
ebreve.gif
ns
lprime.gif
)
tr.v. rec·om·pensed, rec·om·pens·ing, rec·om·pens·es 1. To award compensation to: recompensed the victims of the accident.
2. To award compensation for; make a return for: recompensed their injuries.

n. 1. Amends made, as for damage or loss.
2. Payment in return for something, such as a service.

I would like to see the verses that you claim say that people are in heaven...also, why are the dead being resurrected if they are already in heaven? The "saints" do not come from heaven to resurrect the living, that just wouldn't make sense!

Resurrection consistently implied a reunion with a physical body in scripture, which is what is meant by the resurrection of dead saints. Dead saints do not come from heaven to resurrect the living, of course this doesn't make sense...because nowhere does Scripture ever say this.
 
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Mikecpking

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I came across a really good post on this topic, ironically I think it may have been way earlier in this one, lol. Just though I'd put it here...

"Paul declares that when a Christian dies their souls go immediately to heaven (2 Cor. 5:6-8). The believer is either in their physical body living on earth or has left their material body and have gone into Christ's presence. There is no third option, such as purgatory or "soul sleep." Nowhere does the passage suggest an intermediate state of unconsciousness. Also, while Paul continues at home in the body, he also continues away from home as regards the Lord (present tense); because of this, his fellowship was incomplete (vs. 7). He then goes on to say that a moment of time is coming (aorist) when the situation will be changed and he will be present with the Lord and absent from the body, which is a clear reference to death.

Actually, 2 cor 5:8 doesn't say anything about his soul going anywhere. In contest wiyth 1 cor 15 and John 5:28, Acts 2:29-34 etc, he is simply stating his wish is to be with Christ when he gets resurrected at the last day; like veryone else. The intermediate state is unconciousness as Ps 146:4, Psalm 115:17 proves.
Further, while on the cross Jesus promised the dying thief that he would be with Him in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43). The word paradise is used three times in the New Testament for heaven, where Christ currently resides.



There is no punctuation in Greek and would be a contradiction as Christ was in the grave for 3 days and did not ascend til sometime later after his resurrection.
See also (Phil. 1:21-23). Paul's one desire has a twofold object: departure and being with Christ! If departure didn't mean his immediate being with Christ, another construction would've been used. Therefore, it seems impossible that "soul sleep" was in the mind of the Apostle, since his desire was to enjoy the presence of the Lord.

Lastly, believers are given the guarantee that nothing, including death, will ever separate them from their Lord (Rom. 8:38-39). This assures them that they are not abandoned at the time of physical death."

Pslam 139:8 affirms the Lord is in sheol/Hades, but I think you need to look into this a lot more deeply as the odea of an immortal soul surviving physical death is not biblical.
 
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H

Husky7

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[/b]
Actually, 2 cor 5:8 doesn't say anything about his soul going anywhere. In contest wiyth 1 cor 15 and John 5:28, Acts 2:29-34 etc, he is simply stating his wish is to be with Christ when he gets resurrected at the last day; like veryone else. The intermediate state is unconciousness as Ps 146:4, Psalm 115:17 proves.
[/b]

There is no punctuation in Greek and would be a contradiction as Christ was in the grave for 3 days and did not ascend til sometime later after his resurrection.


Pslam 139:8 affirms the Lord is in sheol/Hades, but I think you need to look into this a lot more deeply as the odea of an immortal soul surviving physical death is not biblical.


Yes, thank you.
 
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zeke37

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But Zeke,
Jesus tells us they are in the graves; not in heaven.

John 5:28 (New International Version)


28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
figure of speech
 
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UpperEschelon

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Pslam 139:8 affirms the Lord is in sheol/Hades


"If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there."


A terrible misappropriation of Psalm 139.


“(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth?” (Ephesians 4:9)

“For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.” (Psalm 16:10)


“So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.” (Mark 16:19-20)


Christ is in heaven seated at the right hand of God.

There is no punctuation in Greek and would be a contradiction as Christ was in the grave for 3 days and did not ascend til sometime later after his resurrection.

Regardless, Christ himself made the promise that the thief would be with him in paradise. This single handedly refutes a non-conscious after life and the idea that believer’s are not with Christ at death.


“For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.”


No reference to the future coming of Christ, Paul is clearly telling us that departure from his physical body equates to him going to be with Christ. It is incontrovertible.

The intermediate state is unconciousness as Ps 146:4, Psalm 115:17 proves.


"His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;
In that very day his plans perish."


No state of unconsciousness is implied at all, you would be misappropriating the text. It does tell us “his spirit departs”, meaning it simply goes elsewhere.

“The dead do not praise the LORD,
Nor any who go down into silence.”


Claiming this is a reference to unconscious after life is an extortion of the text. This passage simply means to reveal the nature of Sheol (in OT times, a critical point to understand) and that it is cut off from the land of the living.

but I think you need to look into this a lot more deeply as the odea of an immortal soul surviving physical death is not biblical.

9 “ Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:

‘ Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.’"



(Isaiah 44)

This passage is in reference to Sennacherib, the deceased king of Babylon. Those in Sheol are conscious of their state and can even perceive those who enter.


" 14 ‘So that no trees by the waters may ever again exalt themselves for their height, nor set their tops among the thick boughs, that no tree which drinks water may ever be high enough to reach up to them.


‘ For they have all been delivered to death,
To the depths of the earth,
Among the children of men who go down to the Pit.’

15
“Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. 16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. 17 They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.
18
‘To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,’ says the Lord GOD.”


(Ezekiel 21)


Graves are not made in the depths of the earth but its surface, hence this is Sheol (hell). Men are brought down to the Pit (Sheol) and are found with others around them. A similar passage is found in Ezekiel 32 and speaks specifically of Egypt sharing this same fate.


"So Jacob tore his clothes, and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days.
35Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, "Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son." So his father wept for him."(Genesis 35)


Jacob acknowledges his son is in Sheol and despite his perceived death, Jacob still referred to Joseph as his son (a person continuing to exist). He even expresses a desire to reunite with him..."surely I will go down to Sheol".


The hebrew word "rephaim" is also a term that refers to the actual residents of Sheol, see Isa. 14:9, 26:14,19; Ps. 88:11; Prov. 2:18, 9:18, 21:16; Job. 26:5.


Also, the Hebrew equivalent for grave “kever” is never equated with “Sheol” and these two are consistently portrayed as opposites, hence “kever” being the state of the physical body and “sheol” being the state of the soul. One represents unconsciousness (grave) while the other represents consciousness (after life). Same goes for the greek counterparts, “mneema” meaning grave is consistently contrasted with “Hades” in the septuagint, which is the NT word for Sheol, the conscious state of the after life. There is a very big significance to this distinction, if there truly was no conscious state at death then there would not exist a distinction between kever/mneema (grave) and Sheol/Hades.
 
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zeke37

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No he didn't. If he did, prove it to me...where does Jesus teach that in the bible?

post 12 and 16 and 26

you responded with 32, said you'd read through it and respond

then I posted 33...

you respond with 34, and I respond with 37


and then 50

Zadok has a good post at 72 and rebuttal in 78

so, I continue in post 91

Zadok in 104...


etc...


it's been said!

I would like to see the verses that you claim say that people are in heaven...
I have shown you many already in the past, in this thread....many

Rev5 and Rev6 and Rev12 to start with


1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.



9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


also, why are the dead being resurrected if they are already in heaven?
to life on earth again...forever and ever....

heaven will be on earth eventually...and the righteous will dwell there

The "saints" do not come from heaven to resurrect the living, that just wouldn't make sense!
the "saints" come from heaven and the living are changed when they do

the faithfull righteous will be gathered together Mar13

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
 
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UpperEschelon

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when the flesh dies, the spirit goes to heaven...conscious intellect...and waits there, in a spiritual body

that spiritual body is the body that is "raised" here to life on earth again....

so, the spirits of those who believe in Christ,
who are dead in the flesh, are alive in heaven today.
and they will return here to earth with Christ when He comes
and be gathered together with the alive ones who are faithful to Christ at His Coming

the dead are very much alive today...not sleeping, not in the ground....those are figures of speech

I couldn't have put it any better! And they are truly figures of speech inescapably. When the dead are spoken of as "sleeping" it is always a clear reference simply to bodily inactivity.
 
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UpperEschelon

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Scripture is clear that people are in the graves until the resurrection

Acts 2;29-34.

Peter is stating that David is in the grave and he did not ascend to heaven.
John 5:28 Jesus is saying people are in the graves and will come out
Dan 12:2 clearly state the dead are in the dust of the ground until the resurrection.

'Spirit' as in the human spirit is the 'breath of life' (Gen 2:7), the spirit is not 'the essence of a person' going to heaven, it really is just the breath of life from God who gave it.

Call me late, but I just recognized others had actually commented on a something I had posted a while ago. Firstly, if you do study the scriptures you'll easily be able to understand that it firmly reveals to us the conscious state of the after life. At which point it would be a question of whether or not you wish to believe believer's go to be in heaven upon death, but scriptural support would be strongly in favor of believer's meeting christ in heaven upon death (Philippians 1:23 is inescapable). The living have their bodies at the coming of Christ, not the dead, hence the reason for the word "resurrection". This is a basic biblical principle, as "resurrection" throughout the bible consistently indicated the re-union of a man's soul and his body. Thus at the coming of Christ, the dead are reunited with their bodies, the living are caught up, and all believer's at that point will receive their new, glorified bodies which will be in the same likeness as Christ Himself. Just to touch on one aspect...
 
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NJBeliever

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The living have their bodies at the coming of Christ, not the dead, hence the reason for the word "resurrection". This is a basic biblical principle, as "resurrection" throughout the bible consistently indicated the re-union of a man's soul and his body. Thus at the coming of Christ, the dead are reunited with their bodies, the living are caught up, and all believer's at that point will receive their new, glorified bodies which will be in the same likeness as Christ Himself. Just to touch on one aspect...

Exactly. Very, very well said.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Acts 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Acts 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. [/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Genesis 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Genesis 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. [/FONT][/FONT]

This is why it was so important for Jesus to show he was PHYSICALLY alive after his Resurrection. This is why He ate and drank with them and let Thomas feel Him.

If it was not the rejoining of soul and body, then Thomas would have just needed to see Jesus to know He was resurrected. but no, he says he must touch and FEEL Him to know it was true. This is the meaning of resurrection.
 
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Mikecpking

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Exactly. Very, very well said.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Acts 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Acts 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. [/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Genesis 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Genesis 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=times new roman,times]Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. [/FONT][/FONT]

This is why it was so important for Jesus to show he was PHYSICALLY alive after his Resurrection. This is why He ate and drank with them and let Thomas feel Him.

If it was not the rejoining of soul and body, then Thomas would have just needed to see Jesus to know He was resurrected. but no, he says he must touch and FEEL Him to know it was true. This is the meaning of resurrection.

Hi,
The 'ghost' given up is the Hebrew 'ruach' which means breath.

You must go to the original langauge and not read into other meanings of these verses.

Ecclesiates 12:7 has the idea that Ruach breath is what God gives us life and it goes back to God who gave it.

Death, biblically speaking is the undoing of Genesis 2:7
 
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Mikecpking

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Call me late, but I just recognized others had actually commented on a something I had posted a while ago. Firstly, if you do study the scriptures you'll easily be able to understand that it firmly reveals to us the conscious state of the after life. At which point it would be a question of whether or not you wish to believe believer's go to be in heaven upon death, but scriptural support would be strongly in favor of believer's meeting christ in heaven upon death (Philippians 1:23 is inescapable). The living have their bodies at the coming of Christ, not the dead, hence the reason for the word "resurrection". This is a basic biblical principle, as "resurrection" throughout the bible consistently indicated the re-union of a man's soul and his body. Thus at the coming of Christ, the dead are reunited with their bodies, the living are caught up, and all believer's at that point will receive their new, glorified bodies which will be in the same likeness as Christ Himself. Just to touch on one aspect...

The bible tells us we are unconcious in death

Psalm 146:4 and Psalm 115:17 show this.

From the Jewish encyclopedia

ARTICLE HEADINGS:
Hellenistic View.
Immortality of Martyrs.
In Jewish Philosophy.



The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).
As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2; see Eschatology; Resurrection). Hellenistic View.
(see image) Page from the First Edition of Immanuel ben Solomon's "Meḥabberot," Brescia, 1491.(In the Columbia University Library, New York.)The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended


Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL

Tha last part shows you where your belief came from and it was clearly from a pagan source.
 
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UpperEschelon

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The bible tells us we are unconcious in death

Psalm 146:4 and Psalm 115:17 show this.

From the Jewish encyclopedia

ARTICLE HEADINGS:
Hellenistic View.
Immortality of Martyrs.
In Jewish Philosophy.



The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).
As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2; see Eschatology; Resurrection). Hellenistic View.
(see image) Page from the First Edition of Immanuel ben Solomon's "Meḥabberot," Brescia, 1491.(In the Columbia University Library, New York.)The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended


Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL

Tha last part shows you where your belief came from and it was clearly from a pagan source.


The soul is immortal, the Bible clearly states that man was made in the image of God, hence he is an eternal being. The end result of every human living an eternity in either Gehenna or the New Jerusalem is a Biblical certainty. Not only that, but taking two small, isolated passages and extorting them to prove your point is in itself bad theology, as Psalm 146:4 and Psalm 115:17 do not prove unconsciousness whatsoever in any way or form. You can waste time beating around the bush with theological writings, but the final authority is ultimately dictated by the Word of God. I would also assume you would consequentially be advocating the "annihilation" of the human soul, whereby they cease to exist at some point. This is so blatantly and horrendously contradictory to the scriptures, and if that is the case then I would simply leave you to your belief if you'd still be willing to hold to it.

Scripture isn't ambiguous when it comes to revealing the consciousness of the after life. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is an absolutely clear reference to a conscious after life. Aside from that, I am going to repost something I had previously posted...

"9 “ Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:

‘ Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.’"



(Isaiah 44)

This passage is in reference to Sennacherib, the deceased king of Babylon. Those in Sheol are conscious of their state and can even perceive those who enter.


" 14 ‘So that no trees by the waters may ever again exalt themselves for their height, nor set their tops among the thick boughs, that no tree which drinks water may ever be high enough to reach up to them.


‘ For they have all been delivered to death,
To the depths of the earth,
Among the children of men who go down to the Pit.’

15
“Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. 16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. 17 They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.
18
‘To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,’ says the Lord GOD.”


(Ezekiel 21)


Graves are not made in the depths of the earth but its surface, hence this is Sheol (hell). Men are brought down to the Pit (Sheol) and are found with others around them. A similar passage is found in Ezekiel 32 and speaks specifically of Egypt sharing this same fate.


"So Jacob tore his clothes, and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days.
35Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, "Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son." So his father wept for him."(Genesis 35)


Jacob acknowledges his son is in Sheol and despite his perceived death, Jacob still referred to Joseph as his son (a person continuing to exist). He even expresses a desire to reunite with him..."surely I will go down to Sheol".


The hebrew word "rephaim" is also a term that refers to the actual residents of Sheol, see Isa. 14:9, 26:14,19; Ps. 88:11; Prov. 2:18, 9:18, 21:16; Job. 26:5.


Also, the Hebrew equivalent for grave “kever” is never equated with “Sheol” and these two are consistently portrayed as opposites, hence “kever” being the state of the physical body and “sheol” being the state of the soul. One represents unconsciousness (grave) while the other represents consciousness (after life). Same goes for the greek counterparts, “mneema” meaning grave is consistently contrasted with “Hades” in the septuagint, which is the NT word for Sheol, the conscious state of the after life. There is a very big significance to this distinction, if there truly was no conscious state at death then there would not exist a distinction between kever/mneema (grave) and Sheol/Hades."
____________

Also, make note that your biblical evidence is limited to two misappropriated verses, with the rest being mere theological opinions, whereas I use 100% scripture to prove my point and provide anything but meager evidence. This fact speaks volumes.

Edit: Two additional items. Christ promised the thief next to him that he would be with Him in paradise. Since we know Jesus is not a liar, this would imply a conscious after life the thief would experience. Paul in Philippians also expresses the desire to depart and be with Christ, automatically implying that upon death he would not only be conscious but would also be in the presence of Christ.
 
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