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Just to mention, John had his vision and revelation while on a Grek Island, he had a vision from God, but physically he was on the earth!!!
My main point here is all of relevation is 'picture language' and was a vision from God.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is simply a parable! Jesus was using the theology of the Pharisees to codemn them. The Jewish nation jad already been exposed to the teachings of Plato and Babylonian ideas such as the immortality of the soul, tripartite view of personhood, heaven and hell through interaction with these cultures.
so, "vision" means it's not a real event???
tell no one what you saw....that's how I see it
12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The verse says "no one has ascended into heaven." That means no soul/body. Where from scripture can you show me where it says the souls of christians are in heaven before the return of Christ?
1. I don't know what you mean by "picture language." Either John was in Heaven seeing things or he wasn't. He specifically says he was "in spirit." So the location of his body does not change the reality that he was in heaven.. And he recorded what he saw. And he sees people there. Again, I ask you, Revelation 6, the 5th Seal, Revelation Chapter 7, Revelation 19. These are people in Heaven. You have just overlooked these things to continue in your point, even though they clearly refute it. Paul said he knew a man who went to Heaven. If it's in spirit alone, that is proving my point. I am not saying the e physical body goes to heaven.
Acts 7: 55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
And the examples just continue. We see people in Heaven in the Bible. We are told people have been there. We have Jesus telling someone they would be with Him there that same day. We have Apostles at the point of death looking and speaking directly to God The Father and Jesus Christ our Lord with the expectation of their spirit going to Heaven. It seems quite obvious. The only verse you have based your theory on, I believe is a misinterpretation on your part, which I explained in detail. And to which, you have not answered. Yet you just continue saying "it is so" with no Biblical warrant. I don't understand why this happens so much in this forum.
2. Parable vs. Historical Account -- Again, I have given reasons for why I believe it is an historical account. You don't have to agree with me but replying "It's simply a parable!" doesn't really establish anything or advance the discussion.
From the Jewish encyclopaedia:
The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).
As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2; see Eschatology; Resurrection). Hellenistic View.
(see image) Page from the First Edition of Immanuel ben Solomon's "Meḥabberot," Brescia, 1491.(In the Columbia University Library, New York.)The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, as the Semitic name "Minos" (comp. "Minotaurus"), and the Egyptian "Rhadamanthys" ("Ra of Ament," "Ruler of Hades"; Naville, "La Litanie du Soleil," 1875, p. 13) with others, sufficiently prove.
Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL
So there is the 'proof' Eternal torment in hell was a pPersian idea and has no place in pure Hebrew thought where 'Sheol' is the grave.
Let me make it clear, there will be a judgement and punishment, but the Judgement, punishment and reward will be after the general resurrection when the Lord comes back.
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
my point is that the "soul" does not remain in the grave with the decaying body...One thing I notice is that the souls were UNDER the altar not in front of or behind but UNDER. So if John was in Heaven while in the spirit he had to be looking down to see the souls.
My guess would be that they were still in Abraham's bosom at the time.
my point is that the "soul" does not remain in the grave with the decaying body...
Yes Zeke, it's simply a matter of reading Mike's posts...then you will see.
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I agreemy point is that the "soul" does not remain in the grave with the decaying body...
my point is that the "soul" does not remain in the grave with the decaying body...
the bible says many things, and some seem to be contradictory...What does the bible say?
What Happens at Death?
the bible says many things, and some seem to be contradictory...
since they are not contradictions, we are in error in our understanding.
one meaning may be spiritual and one literal...
one a figure of speech, while another, the reality
soul sleep is not literal...it is a figure of speech...
there are just too many scriptures showing life in heaven.
the folks there are not sleeping
sleeping from life on earth....yes, but not sleeping unconcious
we do not sleep at death....but rather are alive and concious in heaven.
good or bad....
we exist in heaven in a body, and with intelligence,
before Christ brings the righteous back here for life again on earth as promised...
33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: