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Is there anybody in Heaven?

NJBeliever

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Just to mention, John had his vision and revelation while on a Grek Island, he had a vision from God, but physically he was on the earth!!!

My main point here is all of relevation is 'picture language' and was a vision from God.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is simply a parable! Jesus was using the theology of the Pharisees to codemn them. The Jewish nation jad already been exposed to the teachings of Plato and Babylonian ideas such as the immortality of the soul, tripartite view of personhood, heaven and hell through interaction with these cultures.

1. I don't know what you mean by "picture language." Either John was in Heaven seeing things or he wasn't. He specifically says he was "in spirit." So the location of his body does not change the reality that he was in heaven.. And he recorded what he saw. And he sees people there. Again, I ask you, Revelation 6, the 5th Seal, Revelation Chapter 7, Revelation 19. These are people in Heaven. You have just overlooked these things to continue in your point, even though they clearly refute it. Paul said he knew a man who went to Heaven. If it's in spirit alone, that is proving my point. I am not saying the e physical body goes to heaven.

Acts 7: 55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

And the examples just continue. We see people in Heaven in the Bible. We are told people have been there. We have Jesus telling someone they would be with Him there that same day. We have Apostles at the point of death looking and speaking directly to God The Father and Jesus Christ our Lord with the expectation of their spirit going to Heaven. It seems quite obvious. The only verse you have based your theory on, I believe is a misinterpretation on your part, which I explained in detail. And to which, you have not answered. Yet you just continue saying "it is so" with no Biblical warrant. I don't understand why this happens so much in this forum.

2. Parable vs. Historical Account -- Again, I have given reasons for why I believe it is an historical account. You don't have to agree with me but replying "It's simply a parable!" doesn't really establish anything or advance the discussion.
 
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NJBeliever

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so, "vision" means it's not a real event???

tell no one what you saw....that's how I see it

And you would be right, since the Greek translation of the world indicates that it is referring to a supernatural spectacle, not something that is fictional, a hologram or an illusion.
 
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zeke37

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12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?




13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 
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NJBeliever

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12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.



35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?




13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Precisely. The thing I don't get is that the Bible makes it clear that Jesus rose in a fashion that we are going to as well being His followers. We are going to be resurrected by the same Holy Spirit. Jesus did not soul sleep. We are specifically told he went into the lower parts of the Earth during those 3 days, not that His spirit was in some unconscious state. The same will happen to all those who die in Him.
 
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zeke37

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The verse says "no one has ascended into heaven." That means no soul/body. Where from scripture can you show me where it says the souls of christians are in heaven before the return of Christ?

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
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Mikecpking

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1. I don't know what you mean by "picture language." Either John was in Heaven seeing things or he wasn't. He specifically says he was "in spirit." So the location of his body does not change the reality that he was in heaven.. And he recorded what he saw. And he sees people there. Again, I ask you, Revelation 6, the 5th Seal, Revelation Chapter 7, Revelation 19. These are people in Heaven. You have just overlooked these things to continue in your point, even though they clearly refute it. Paul said he knew a man who went to Heaven. If it's in spirit alone, that is proving my point. I am not saying the e physical body goes to heaven.

Acts 7: 55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


Hi NJ,
This is a common mistake, but one needs to know what "spirit" is in relation to "personhood"

The bible tells us a person is made from dust, breath of life (spirit) to make a 'nephesh' (soul) as a complete living entity or being. Genesis 2:7.

At death, the spirit (breath) goes back to God who gave it (ecclesiates 12:7). The 'breath of life' is not us nor is it the person, but in a living human being is the animating principle, the seat of moral judgement and seeking out God's ways (spirituality). So Stephen was literally speaking out Ecclesiates 12:7 as he died, but he did not go to heaven, but the breath of life that God gave went back to God.

And the examples just continue. We see people in Heaven in the Bible. We are told people have been there. We have Jesus telling someone they would be with Him there that same day. We have Apostles at the point of death looking and speaking directly to God The Father and Jesus Christ our Lord with the expectation of their spirit going to Heaven. It seems quite obvious. The only verse you have based your theory on, I believe is a misinterpretation on your part, which I explained in detail. And to which, you have not answered. Yet you just continue saying "it is so" with no Biblical warrant. I don't understand why this happens so much in this forum.

For me, it is a misunderstanding of the Hebrew root word meanings and trying to read into scripture Greek ideas and speculation into Scripture which simply should not be. My take is from the Hebrew understandings of personhood, the afterlife and I try to convince fellow christians to drop these Greek notions and to embrace what these Hebrew ideas were instead. Then so many contradictions disappear.

2. Parable vs. Historical Account -- Again, I have given reasons for why I believe it is an historical account. You don't have to agree with me but replying "It's simply a parable!" doesn't really establish anything or advance the discussion.

As above, but the main point about the story of the rich amn and Lazarus being a parable is that Jesus takes the already polluted view of the Pharisees and uses it against them. Here is somthing from Wilipaedia which highlights how Greek philosophy and Persian ideas came to affect Hebrew ideas, then you will notice the pagan influence it had:

From Wikipaedia:
Hellenistic period (332 - 54 BCE)

The Hellenistic period of Jewish history began in 332 BCE when Alexander the Great conquered Persia. Upon his death in 323 BCE, his empire was divided among his generals. At first, Judea was ruled by the Egyptian-Hellenic Ptolemies, but in 198 BCE,the Syrian-Hellenic Seleucid Empire, under Antiochus III, seized control over Judea.
The Hellenistic Period saw the canonization of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), according to one theory, see Development of the Jewish canon for details, and the emergence of extra-Biblical sacred traditions. The earliest evidence of a Jewish mysticism tradition surrounds the book of Ezekiel, written during the Babylonian Exile. Virtually all known mystical texts, however, were written at the end of the Second Temple period. Scholars like Gershom Scholom have discerned within the esoteric traditions of the Kabbalah(Jewish Mysticism, which were restricted to sages), the influence of Persian beliefs, Platonic philosophy and Gnosticism.
2 Esdras 14:45-46, which was written in the second century CE, declares: "Make public the twenty-four books that you wrote first, and let the worthy and the unworthy read them; but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people." This is the first known reference to the canonized Hebrew Bible, and the seventy non-canonical texts may have been mystical; the Talmud suggests other mystical traditions which may have their roots in Second Temple Judaism.
The Near East was cosmopolitan, especially during the Hellenistic period. Several languages were used, and the matter of the lingua franca is still subject of some debate. The Jews almost certainly spoke Aramaic among themselves. Greek was at least to some extent a trade language in the region, and indeed throughout the entire eastern portion of the Mediterranean. Judaism was rapidly changing, reacting and adapting to a larger political, cultural, and intellectual world, and in turn drawing the interests of non-Jews. Historian Shaye Cohen observed:
All the Judaisms of the Hellenistic period, of both the diaspora and the land of Israel, were Hellenized, that is, were integral parts of the culture of the ancient world. Some varieties of Judaism were more hellenized than others, but none was an island unto itself. It is a mistake to imagine that the land of Palestine preserved a "pure" form of Judaism and that the diaspora was the home of adulterated or diluted forms of Judaism. The term "Hellenistic Judaism" makes sense, then, only as a chronological indicator for the period from Alexander the Great to the Macabees or perhaps to the Roman conquests of the first century BCE. As a descriptive term for a certain type of Judaism, however, it is meaningless because all the Judaisms of the Hellenistic period were "Hellenistic." (Cohen 1987: 37)[edit] Cultural Struggles with Hellenism

Many Jews lived in the Diaspora, and the Judean provinces of Judea, Samaria, and the Galilee were populated by many Gentiles (who often showed an interest in Judaism, see Proselytes). Jews had to grapple with the values of Hellenism and Hellenistic philosophy, which were often directly at odds with their own values and traditions. Broadly, Hellenistic culture saw itself as a civilizor, bringing civilized values and ways to peoples they thought of as insular or either backwards or degenerate.
 
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Mikecpking

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From the Jewish encyclopaedia:

IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL (print this article)
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By : Kaufmann Kohler




The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).
As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2; see Eschatology; Resurrection). Hellenistic View.
(see image) Page from the First Edition of Immanuel ben Solomon's "Meḥabberot," Brescia, 1491.(In the Columbia University Library, New York.)The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, as the Semitic name "Minos" (comp. "Minotaurus"), and the Egyptian "Rhadamanthys" ("Ra of Ament," "Ruler of Hades"; Naville, "La Litanie du Soleil," 1875, p. 13) with others, sufficiently prove.


Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL

So there is the 'proof' Eternal torment in hell was a pPersian idea and has no place in pure Hebrew thought where 'Sheol' is the grave.

Let me make it clear, there will be a judgement and punishment, but the Judgement, punishment and reward will be after the general resurrection when the Lord comes back.​
 
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Husky7

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From the Jewish encyclopaedia:

IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL (print this article)
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spacer.gif

spacer.gif
By : Kaufmann Kohler




The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).
As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2; see Eschatology; Resurrection). Hellenistic View.
(see image) Page from the First Edition of Immanuel ben Solomon's "Meḥabberot," Brescia, 1491.(In the Columbia University Library, New York.)The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, as the Semitic name "Minos" (comp. "Minotaurus"), and the Egyptian "Rhadamanthys" ("Ra of Ament," "Ruler of Hades"; Naville, "La Litanie du Soleil," 1875, p. 13) with others, sufficiently prove.



So there is the 'proof' Eternal torment in hell was a pPersian idea and has no place in pure Hebrew thought where 'Sheol' is the grave.​


Let me make it clear, there will be a judgement and punishment, but the Judgement, punishment and reward will be after the general resurrection when the Lord comes back.​

Again, I agree.
 
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graymonkey

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9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


One thing I notice is that the souls were UNDER the altar not in front of or behind but UNDER. So if John was in Heaven while in the spirit he had to be looking down to see the souls.

My guess would be that they were still in Abraham's bosom at the time.
 
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zeke37

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One thing I notice is that the souls were UNDER the altar not in front of or behind but UNDER. So if John was in Heaven while in the spirit he had to be looking down to see the souls.

My guess would be that they were still in Abraham's bosom at the time.
my point is that the "soul" does not remain in the grave with the decaying body...
 
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Mikecpking

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Yes Zeke, it's simply a matter of reading Mike's posts...then you will see.
^_^


Hi Zadok,
That is very friendly of you!

Since you guys cannot explain what a 'soul' is I leave you with a link that looks at the subject in the most greatest of detail. 18 pages worth.

Dr. Tory Hoff

Your comments please!
 
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zeke37

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What does the bible say?
What Happens at Death?
the bible says many things, and some seem to be contradictory...
since they are not contradictions, we are in error in our understanding.

one meaning may be spiritual and one literal...
one a figure of speech, while another, the reality

soul sleep is not literal...it is a figure of speech...
there are just too many scriptures showing life in heaven.
the folks there are not sleeping



sleeping from life on earth....yes, but not sleeping unconcious

we do not sleep at death....but rather are alive and concious in heaven.
good or bad....

we exist in heaven in a body, and with intelligence,
before Christ brings the righteous back here for life again on earth as promised...

33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
 
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Husky7

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the bible says many things, and some seem to be contradictory...
since they are not contradictions, we are in error in our understanding.

one meaning may be spiritual and one literal...
one a figure of speech, while another, the reality

soul sleep is not literal...it is a figure of speech...
there are just too many scriptures showing life in heaven.
the folks there are not sleeping



sleeping from life on earth....yes, but not sleeping unconcious

we do not sleep at death....but rather are alive and concious in heaven.
good or bad....

we exist in heaven in a body, and with intelligence,
before Christ brings the righteous back here for life again on earth as promised...

33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Ok, well I've shown you before that those "beings" in "heaven" are not actually in heaven. This is how Strong's dictionary defines spirit, and soul:

Strong’s Old Testament Hebrew dictionary definition for Spirit.
H7307 ruach, Pronounced roo'-akh. From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).
Strong’s New Testament Greek dictionary definition for Spirit.
G4151 pneuma, Pronounced pnyoo'-mah. From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
A person’s soul is just simply a living breathing creature. Have you heard the expression; I went to the park and there wasn’t a soul there? A soul just simply means a person and is who and what you are.
Strong’s Old Testament Hebrew dictionary definition for Soul.
H5315 nephesh, Pronounced neh'-fesh. From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental).

Our spirit is basically the breath of life from God. Also, the soul is defined as a person in the bible:
Exodus 1:5 “Seventy souls” went to Egypt.
Acts 2:41 “Three thousand souls” were baptized.
1 Peter 3:20 “Eight souls were saved” in Noah’s day.

Another thing, the bible proclaims very clearly that the "soul" is mortal and not immortal:
Job 4:17 The Bible calls man mortal.
Revelation 16:3 "Every living soul died in the sea." Souls can die.
Ezekiel 18:4 God said, “The soul that sins, it shall die.”
Exodus 1:5 “Seventy souls” went to Egypt. Souls are people.
Acts 2:41 “Three thousand souls” were baptized. Again, souls are people.
1 Peter 3:20 “Eight souls were saved” in Noah’s day. Again, souls are people.
1 Timothy 6:16 God “only has immortality.” Man is not immortal.
2 Timothy 1:10 “Immortality” comes only “through the gospel.”
Romans 2:7 Christians “seek for immortality.”
1 Corinthians 15:53 At the end, “this mortal” shall “put on immortality.

Jesus taught the Resurrection of the dead. He didn't teach that believers would go directly to heaven after they die:
Matthew 22:23, 29 Jesus rebuked those who said there was “no resurrection.”
Matthew 22:31 Jesus taught “the resurrection of the dead.”
Luke 14:14 The saints will “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.”
John 5:28-29 “All who are in their graves” will be resurrected at the second coming of Christ.
John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 All believers will rise “on the last day.”
John 11:24 Martha said to Jesus, “I know that he [Lazarus] shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

The bible also clearly states that all believers would be resurrected when Jesus returns:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 “The Lord himself shall descend ... the dead ... shall rise ... to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 The saints cry out, “0 death, where is thy sting” when they are resurrected at the second coming of Jesus.
John 14:1-3 Jesus will take us to heaven when He “comes again.”
1 Corinthians 15:12-23 Paul says there is a resurrection of both Christ and the dead, “but every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”
 
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