Is there anybody in Heaven?

[the.Sheepdog]

Swordsman, their is so much to like about you sir!

 

[Zadok7000]

Does it? This isn't wrong, is it?

Sigh

Are you really that immature that you take a contrary opinion as "anti-God"? I didn't have you pegged for one of those...

 

[Swordsmanoffaith]

Swordsman, their is so much to like about you sir!

LOL! God said it all. We just have to pay attention to what He said.

 

[interpreter]

In the Revelation, only the martyrs are seen in heaven at the present time.

 

[Swordsmanoffaith]

In the Revelation, only the martyrs are seen in heaven at the present time.

But most of Revelation is still future. In Revelation, it is the martyrs of the church (of the last 2000 years) who are asking to be avenged. They are asking God for the Day of the Lord to begin, for judgment of the wicked.

That's when it begins. The church is given her garments of salvation, having endured the great tribulation that began with Israel's desolation, and is removed to the throne of God before the Day of the Lord begins and more martyrs die at the hands of the anti-christ.

 

[Mikecpking]

Yes Tracey! When we are called up those who are dead will be called first meaning their perfect bodies will be united with their spirit in heaven then a milisecond or so later the living will be raised and changed into our perfected bodies.

David is with the Lord even now!

Even though scripture tells us he is not! (acts 2:29-34)

Why don't you guys believe the bible anymore?

 

[Mikecpking]

Paul differentiates between those still in the flesh at the time of the Return and those already "asleep". See 1 Thes. 4:

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
"Bring with Him" because they are with Him already in heaven.

Does it? To make it so it doies not disagree with scripture or make it contradict itself, God will bring with him from the grave. I can't see you reasoning.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
"Prevent" = proceed. Meaning those "dead in Christ" already have been changed. Who do you think the white linen wearing "armies in heaven" are in Rev. 19:14 that come with Him?

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
And so they have. Until the 7th Trump when those still in the flesh are changed to join them.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
"As the angels". All in their Spiritual Bodies.

You are quoting from 1 Cor 15..I think you should read a little further.

I think you have to accept what Jesus states:

John 5:28 (New International Version)


28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

Where dooe s Jesus say the dead are? IN THEIR GRAVES

 

[Mr. King]

I don't follow. Paul clearly states that the man went to the third Heaven, which is where God resides. The first Heaven is the atmosphere. The second is outer space. The third is where God actually resides.

"4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

This once again, ends the debate. He went to Heaven. The bible does not contradict itself. You just have to correct your interpretation of other scriptures.

Again, can you confirm this with scriptures? Where in the bible does it explain what the "heavens" mean? Please provide evidence...

 

[Mr. King]

Hence the overlap. God's timing is outside ours. To the dead, the next blink of the eye is at the end of time, at the resurrection and we will be there altogether. To us on earth, it looks like they are still in the grave, "asleep".
The Hebrews believed that a dead person becomes a 'rephaim' (the weak) in sheol (Psalm 88, Job3) until the resurrection. That was their dwelling place.
The general resurection has not happened yet. King David was still buried, and he had not ascended to heaven and he has not come out of his grave until now. (Actws 2:29-34). But to God, we will be given an immortal, incorruptable resurrection body and live with him for ever.

The core, central belief of the Christian faith is the resurrection of the dead, not the immortality of the soul.

Well said.

 

[Husky7]

Just as a heads up to everyone, Mr. King was my other account. I had to use it while my Husky7 account was experiencing some problems.

 

[zeke37]

Abraham, Isaac and Jacb are certainly not walking the earth at the moment, the last time I checked.

no, they are in heaven with God, as Christ taught...

The resurrection will not happen until the last day:

and on that day, they shall walk the earth again....
no problem here???

Being in agreement with scripture means that we don't quote scripture against scripture, nor do we put in ideas and concepts and read into scripture something else that scripture does not mean.

really? your idea of what a scripture means is not necissarily what my idea of what scripture means...

so, at least in this regard, you and I are not in agreement


if there are seeming contradictions in scripture,
those are the very scriptures that we need to unbind
so they are not contradictions...

sometimes that means that the Lord meant us
to understand a thing as not literal...
even if you believe it is literal, doesn't mean it is...

such is the case with what bodies the dead come with,
when they come from heaven with the Lord, as 1Thes4 states..
1Cor15 says...


35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

think about it...

Everyone who dies will be raised at the last day,

especially when that last day, is a 1000 years long...the Day of the Lord!

some are raised at the beginning of that day,
and some are raised at the end of that day. Rev20

so if Jesus said that God is the God of the living, it can only mean that being an overlap in the future coming kingdom of God and not a present state.[/quote]

na...it means Abraham Isaac and Jacob are not dead,
but alive with Him right now in heaven,
as the many proofs given state.

those that come with the Lord, come with bodies....spiritual/heavenly/incorruptible bodies

it is those bodies that are "raised" back to life here again...
no flesh anymore

 

[NJBeliever]

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



No soul sleep.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

No soul sleep.

Great verses
That parable is the largest study I have of the New Testament

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus
Richman and Lazarus

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html
Richman and Lazarus

 

[Husky7]

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



No soul sleep.

Do you know what the word Hell really means though? According to this verse, and with the understanding that Hell is a physical place of eternal punishing, one would assume that the begger could actually see Lazarus and Abraham afar off from Hell. This obviously doesn't make any sense...

The word “hell” is used 54 times in the Bible. It is translated from several different words with various meanings as indicated below:
In the Old Testament:
31 times from the Hebrew “Sheol,” which means “the grave”
In the New Testament:
10 times from the Greek “Hades,” which means “the grave”
12 times from the Greek “Gehenna,” which means “a place of burning”
1 time from the Greek “Tartarus,” which means “a place of darkness”
“Tartarus” is used once, in 2 Peter 2:4, and means “a place of darkness or restraint.” “Tartarus” is where Satan and his demons reside now. It isn’t a place of punishment or flames.
“Gehenna” means a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment (see Matthew 5:29-30, described in Matthew 13:40-42 and 2 Peter 3:7.) Note these flames are still in the future at the end of the world.
“Hades” means “the grave” (Acts 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:14). The body of Jesus rested there and His saints are resting there now awaiting the resurrection.
The Greek word “Hades” is translated as “Hell” in many English Bibles such as the King James Version. In Revelation 6:8, the King James Version refers to “Death and Hell [Hades].” It does the same in Revelation 20:14. Yet some English Bibles use the word “Hades” itself, such as the New International Version, which translates both Revelation 6:8 and 20:14 as “Death, and Hades.” Now here is the point; In Revelation 20:14 “Hades” (“Hell”) is eventually “cast into the lake of fire.” So as you can therefore see, “Hades” itself is not a fiery place, but is cast into “the lake of fire” (hell fire).
So Biblically speaking, Hades means the grave. This is easy to prove from 1 Corinthians 15:55, which in the King James Version states, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave [Hades], where is thy victory?” If you look in the Strong’s dictionary, you will find that the Greek word here translated “grave” is “Hades.” By looking at the context, it is obvious that “Hades” means “the grave” because it is God’s saints who rise out of “Hades” when Jesus Christ returns. See 1 Corinthians 15:50-55. Therefore, “Hades” cannot mean a place of burning, for who can imagine God’s people writhing in flames as they await the resurrection? That would be absolutely ludicrous! Additional proof that “Hades” means “the grave” is the fact that “Hades” was the place Jesus Christ’s body rested in immediately after His death. Acts 2:31 reads, “His [Christ’s] soul was not left in hell [Hades] neither [did] his flesh see corruption.”

 

[NJBeliever]

Do you know what the word Hell really means though? According to this verse, and with the understanding that Hell is a physical place of eternal punishing, one would assume that the begger could actually see Lazarus and Abraham afar off from Hell. This obviously doesn't make any sense...

You cannot make such an increidbly strong assertion without backing it up. What did Jesus mean in this account He is giving?? You cannot assert that the words of Jesus don't mean what the text says (ie., that the rich man was in hell, that he could see, speak, taste...and Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom etc..) without explaining how you interpet it.

We don't have to assume the rich man could see Lazarus and Abraham. The text clearly says he could. it is your burden to show how the text does not mean what it clearly says.

As for your definitions of hell, if you are really trying to say that Jesus came to Earth, lowered Himself to the form of man, lived a perfect life, became a servant, suffered persecution and rejection and laid his life down just to defeat a hole in the ground, I don't know what to say. He not only defeated us ever dying, He saved us from hell, i.e., where the Rich man went and the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


This passage is undeniable testimony from Jesus Christ Himself that there is no soul sleep. [/quote]

 

[zeke37]

hell, with regards to the rich man, is a condition, not a place...

Lazarus and the rich man are both in heaven, seperated by a great gulf....

 

[Mikecpking]

no, they are in heaven with God, as Christ taught...

There is no scripture to support this view. I highlighted in red in your text that they awere alive unto God which means God considers them alive in the sence they will get eternal life after the resurrection, not 'death' as in the wages of sin is death in Romans 6:23.

and on that day, they shall walk the earth again....
no problem here???


really? your idea of what a scripture means is not necissarily what my idea of what scripture means...

so, at least in this regard, you and I are not in agreement


if there are seeming contradictions in scripture,
those are the very scriptures that we need to unbind
so they are not contradictions...

sometimes that means that the Lord meant us
to understand a thing as not literal...
even if you believe it is literal, doesn't mean it is...

such is the case with what bodies the dead come with,
when they come from heaven with the Lord, as 1Thes4 states..
1Cor15 says...


35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

think about it...


especially when that last day, is a 1000 years long...the Day of the Lord!

some are raised at the beginning of that day,
and some are raised at the end of that day. Rev20

so if Jesus said that God is the God of the living, it can only mean that being an overlap in the future coming kingdom of God and not a present state.

na...it means Abraham Isaac and Jacob are not dead,
but alive with Him right now in heaven,
as the many proofs given state.

those that come with the Lord, come with bodies....spiritual/heavenly/incorruptible bodies

it is those bodies that are "raised" back to life here again...
no flesh anymore

Why do you keeping raising the point 'no flesh anymore? We both aagree that te new resurrection body will be a 'not of flesh and blood' but a new incorruptable one as in 1 Cor 15 so please leave that alone.

So, based on your idea that Old Testament people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are 'alive, how do you explain Peter's teaching that David is still dead and buried and did not ascend to heaven and also Christ's own teaching in John 3:13 which states:

John 3:13 (New International Version)

13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]

Jesus said no man has gone into heaven. This shoots down your theory that they are in heaven. So are you calling Jesus a liar?

 

[Mikecpking]

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



No soul sleep.

Firstly, the story is a parable using the Rabbinbical language of the day.

Do you really know what 'soul' is?

Biblically, it is the life, locked in the blood. 'It' dies at physical death

Check out the verses for yourself

Numbers 23:10 The soul dies at physical death
Judges 16:30 The soul dies at physical death
Ezekiel 18:4 The whole person who sins will die.

Genesis 2:7 (whole person is a soul)
Deuteronomy 12:23 The blood IS the soul.
Levitis 17:11 The blood contains or is the vehicle of soul.

So your mis informed statement is an absurdity, because to the Hebrew mindset, there is nothing alive about a corpse and you cannot push the Greek idea from a pagan source into the biblicval definition of soul, even though you love to, I suggest you reject any pagan notion and idea and return to the Hebrew definitions about which you write.

 

[Mikecpking]

hell, with regards to the rich man, is a condition, not a place...

Lazarus and the rich man are both in heaven, seperated by a great gulf....

Take the time to read this

Rich Man and Lazarus; Parable of Jesus

 

[Mikecpking]

Do you know what the word Hell really means though? According to this verse, and with the understanding that Hell is a physical place of eternal punishing, one would assume that the begger could actually see Lazarus and Abraham afar off from Hell. This obviously doesn't make any sense...

The word “hell” is used 54 times in the Bible. It is translated from several different words with various meanings as indicated below:
In the Old Testament:
31 times from the Hebrew “Sheol,” which means “the grave”
In the New Testament:
10 times from the Greek “Hades,” which means “the grave”
12 times from the Greek “Gehenna,” which means “a place of burning”
1 time from the Greek “Tartarus,” which means “a place of darkness”
“Tartarus” is used once, in 2 Peter 2:4, and means “a place of darkness or restraint.” “Tartarus” is where Satan and his demons reside now. It isn’t a place of punishment or flames.
“Gehenna” means a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment (see Matthew 5:29-30, described in Matthew 13:40-42 and 2 Peter 3:7.) Note these flames are still in the future at the end of the world.
“Hades” means “the grave” (Acts 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:14). The body of Jesus rested there and His saints are resting there now awaiting the resurrection.
The Greek word “Hades” is translated as “Hell” in many English Bibles such as the King James Version. In Revelation 6:8, the King James Version refers to “Death and Hell [Hades].” It does the same in Revelation 20:14. Yet some English Bibles use the word “Hades” itself, such as the New International Version, which translates both Revelation 6:8 and 20:14 as “Death, and Hades.” Now here is the point; In Revelation 20:14 “Hades” (“Hell”) is eventually “cast into the lake of fire.” So as you can therefore see, “Hades” itself is not a fiery place, but is cast into “the lake of fire” (hell fire).
So Biblically speaking, Hades means the grave. This is easy to prove from 1 Corinthians 15:55, which in the King James Version states, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave [Hades], where is thy victory?” If you look in the Strong’s dictionary, you will find that the Greek word here translated “grave” is “Hades.” By looking at the context, it is obvious that “Hades” means “the grave” because it is God’s saints who rise out of “Hades” when Jesus Christ returns. See 1 Corinthians 15:50-55. Therefore, “Hades” cannot mean a place of burning, for who can imagine God’s people writhing in flames as they await the resurrection? That would be absolutely ludicrous! Additional proof that “Hades” means “the grave” is the fact that “Hades” was the place Jesus Christ’s body rested in immediately after His death. Acts 2:31 reads, “His [Christ’s] soul was not left in hell [Hades] neither [did] his flesh see corruption.”

Right on the nail.

In the new international version of Acts 2:31 reads as follows:

Acts 2:31 (New International Version)

31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[a] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay.

Psuche is translated as 'he' and 'hades' is translated as grave.

This is a much more accurate translation of 'psuche' (soul) and 'hades' (grave) as more and more theologians and biblle translators realise that it is time to throw off the Greek philisophical influence that has polluted the church's thinking for the last two millenia.