Mikecpking
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- Aug 29, 2005
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So basically, you're trying to say John saw their blood. That just doesn't follow grammatically. Their blood were given robes??? Seriously? There is no logical reason to define souls as "blood" in this passage. Not to mention none of the blood in Leviticus, is in Heaven, which is the relevant point. Human blood could not even enter Heaven until it is glorified. But your soul can. And they are in soul form, under the altar. Not to mention, as stated, that you blur the words "sleep" and "Rest".
And then of course we see the entire church n Heaven in Revelation 7. Wearing said robes.
There is absolutely nothing whatsoever to to indicate that Elijah was just moved to another place on Earth.
So where are you trying to say that Enoch is?
But the point is that someone was in the Third Heaven, specifically. You, once again, have no warrant to say "it was a vision." Paul said the person was in the third Heaven. That ends the debate.
There is no soul sleep.
Luke 16: 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
The beggar did not go to sleep. He was carried away by angels. Why was he not snoozing comfortably in his grave?? Because there is no soul sleep.
Matthew 22: 31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are all alive. The only thing on Earth is their bodies.
Philipians 3: 20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
The word "conversation" here means citizenship. We are citizens from Heaven once we are saved. The only thing that needs to be resurrected IS YOUR BODY. When you are Born Again, you already have a new spirit. That can already enter Heaven. It's your body that cannot.
1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
This was the whole point of Jesus dying for us. Jesus defeated death and the grave. Anyone who believes in Him will not taste death. Our bodies will "sleep" awaiting the resurrection, but our souls will never be in the grave. Our born again spirit is sinless in Christ. Our born again spirit is already free from the law in Christ. It happens at the moment you are saved. Please, for those who are considering this incorrect doctrine of "soul sleep", please just consider what Jesus promises in the Gospels. You have eternal life (which means you do not die until the rapture). Believe in Christ today and enjoy eternal life today. I know I am!
What is the point of resurrection if we fly either to heaven or hell upon death?
Indeed, the 'souls under the alter' is purely figurative (picture language) as the definition of soul is literlaly the blood, and you cannot deny scripture
DET 12:23 For the soul (nephesh) of a creature is the blood.
Then Rev 6:9 makes sense, especially when you compare Geneses 4:10 when God 'heard' Abel's blood crying from the ground.
The Hebrews certainly did not believe in dualism, to them, there was no such thing as a disembodied soul and at death, the soul (actually life would be a better definition) died at physical death
Judges 16:30
Numbers 23:10
Ezekiel 18:4
'Soul sleep' is a misnoma as the status of a dead person is 'dust' in the grave (dan 12:2 and they are called 'rephaim' whose dwelling is sheol (psalm 88, Job 3) where the dead awqait resurrection.
Clearly, Luke 16 is a parable, because, by then through contact with Babylonian and Greek philosophy and I quote from the Jewish encyclopaedia
The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8). As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2
Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL
Jesus was using the popular rabbinical teaching of the day to bring a point against the Pharisees who were present there at the time, not teaching about the afterlife.
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