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Featured Is there a second chance after death?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by W2L, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Several things have to be kept in mine:
    There will be a time every knee will bow, but that is not the way to salvation, but an acknowledgement of the truth. With any "Day of the Lord" it is too late, people who put their trust in walls, soldiers, wealth, false gods, and so on will have only God to trust.
    Man's earthly objective can only be fulfilled with a free will choice with likely alternatives (not a gun to your head). There has to be likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season is man's likely alternative).
     
  2. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're taking the language too literally. Bowing the knee won't do the wicked any good- God is not as if he were some human monarch that can be flattered by our piety. People will be judged by what they did in this life, not in the next, as far as we can know from the Bible.
     
  3. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Christ defeated death when he resurrected from the dead. Therefore, God is sovereign over death and has authority over death. It is really not more complicated than that. Otherwise, how then do you explain the fact that people are still dying? How then do you reconcile Daniel 12:2:

    “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

    Pay very close attention to the words "everlasting contempt". Everlasting means exactly that. I understand that the thought of a loved one spending eternity in hell is a very uncomfortable thought. But that does not excuse eisegesis or forcing scripture to mean what it was never intended to mean so that people can have a false sense of hope for the damned. I am sure you have a lot to write about on the topic because your position requires a lot of scripture to be turned upside down. What you are doing is very similar to any other fringe theologies like "Queer Theology" where they try to suggest Jesus and John were lovers and promiscuity is praised as "the gift of bodily hospitality".
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  4. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And what are your thoughts about Daniel 12:2?

    “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
     
  5. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Hell advocates have already turned the Scriptures upside down, and I resent being grouped with '...other fringe theologies like "Queer Theology"...'. We are done here. Insult someone else, sir.
     
  6. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

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    These "Hell Advocates" represent an incredible majority of Christians. Jesus himself spoke of hell. Your point of view is equivalent to queer theology because it is an attempt to twist scripture to make it fit what you what it to mean. In this case, people don't want to believe that their loved ones may be in hell for all eternity. So their solution is to make scripture fit with their wishful thinking. By the way, don't think I have not noticed that you completely ignored my question regarding Daniel 12:2. Would you consider "everlasting contempt" to be forever on God's "naughty list" while in heaven?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  7. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Bible says Jesus is the light of all people (John 1:9). I don't believe only Christians are accepted by God- I don't think God is tribalistic like that.
     
  8. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    So, can you give some scripture that supports the idea that people who reject Christ will be accepted when they die?

    I know, to humans, it is hard to think of an all loving God to reject people... However, it is impossible for a human soul to exist in the presence of God, period.

    We are all sinners... and as a result, unrighteous. We must all pay with our death. Our soul must die.

    Only..... Only those who accept that Christ paid this price, this death sentence, our debt, and thus are pardoned from our crime, can be accepted as righteous and exist in the presence of God.

    So, it's not God's choice, it is a simple fact.

    This generation that we are living in with the "nothing is wrong", "everybody wins", "nobody fails", "that's good enough", "don't discipline your kid you'll give them a psychological problem"...is deceptive..

    With God there is no "grey area". There is no "oh, you were nice, go ahead into heaven".

    There is only those who are righteous in God's sight and those that are not.

    The only human that lived sinless, was Christ. He died for sins that He did not commit.... your sins, my sins...

    But, if you reject this truth..... you will face your judgement as a soul that must pay for it's debt...on it's own... which, is death.
     
  9. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus has a human soul, so his soul obviously exist's in God's presence.

    As John Dominic Crossan points out in some of his writings, the New Testament's frequent assertion that only believiers are saved is a reflection of the zeal of a new religious movement.

    Religions that threaten people with hell typically only do so to manipulate people into seeing things there way. I do not necessarily espouse universalism but I also think it is better to have confidence that Jesus is the savior of all people and that there are many people who live righteous lives outside the institutional boundaries of orthodox Christianity and who will have a share in the world to come.
     
  10. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    I suppose someone has already quoted you this passage, but if so, here it is again...
    John 14:6:
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Based on reading 2-3 of your posts I would say you appear to not be very familiar with the Scriptures...that or you simply do not accept them. Be careful. Just as God is very exact in all He does, so we also should strive to be exact in following His teachings. We must be careful so that we too are not found wanting when weighed on God's scales as was Belshazzar--based on Daniel 5:27
     
  11. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry, I don't know why or what you are asking me about this verse.
     
  12. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    I do not hold much faith even in death bed conversions.

    And what you are describing goes way, way beyond that.

    M-Bob
     
  13. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Context of 1 Peter 3:18: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, the subject of this reference is the Spirit by whom in other words, through the Spirit He went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were disobedient, once in the days of long-suffering they waited in the time of Noah while the ark was being prepared.

    See in Isaiah 61, part of the ministry of Christ, it says: He came to set the captives free and opening the prison to them that are bound. So it’s simply saying that part of the work of Christ was to try to save people, even during the time of Noah, through the same Spirit He tried to save those people whose spirits were imprisoned (being held captive) by the devil. He’s not talking about how their "ghosts" were in hell, chained up, or anything.

    Doesn't mention hell at all.

    Isaiah 61:1

    The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;

    Ecclesiastes 9

    5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything.

    The dead are not capable of knowing anything .... whether they died in a saved state or whether they died in an unsaved state.

    Hebrews 9:27
    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    No second chances ... and all the dead are incapable of knowing anything (which dismisses the idea of any preaching going on with the dead)
     
  14. childeye 2

    childeye 2 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I've heard that interpretation before many times. The term prison is being applied as a state of mind or unrighteousness, being preached to as "spirits" in the days of Noah. However I just don't see that actually being articulated by Peter.

    Respectfully, Isaiah 61 is about the Gospel and the New Covenant. I don't see that as something being preached by Noah in his day, particularly since it comes through a promise made after the flood yet before the Old Covenant. Ironically and contrary to this interpretation of the term "captive", scripture uses this same reference to say that when Jesus descended into the lower parts, he ascended from there carrying captivity captive.

    I note that when Peter says Jesus was put to death in the flesh but quickened in the Spirit, he appears to be referencing Jesus' death and being resurrected. He then immediately says "by which", he preached to those who were in prison. Hence it appears Peter is saying that through his death and resurrection he went somewhere to preach.

    Finally if the dead are not capable of knowing anything, then why does Jesus tell the story of the rich man and Lazarus? Clearly there was a conversation happening between the dead in this story. And so it's perfectly plausible that Jesus did preach to the actual dead, since scripture also says the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life with Christ. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  15. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    And..........He was sinless. Your point?

    John Dominic Who?.....said "what".

    Jesus Christ said:

    John 14:6 King James Version (KJV)
    6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    I could take time and post a whole book of proof from the bible that people need to accept Christ or endure eternal death, or Hell. But.... I think my time would be wasted here.



    Religions that "threaten" people with hell....... hmmm.... I don't think it's a threat. It's a solid fact.

    It's kinda like "don't stick your finger in that fire"... or " Don't drink that methanol".... Or " Don't sleep on that train track".

    I would rather that type of religion than one that sugar coats everything:

    2 Timothy 4:3 King James Version (KJV)

    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;


    So, as you can see, it's another sign of the times... "don't tell ME what is going to happen to my soul when I die... I'll just talk to Jesus and we'll smooth things over".....

    Religions that don't preach the truth... are far worse than those that tell it like it is.
     
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The incredible majority of Christians must be right!
     
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    And, St. Peter continues>>>>

    “Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

    Dead= ?

    Disobedient= ?

    Live= ?
     
  18. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-

    Dead=

    nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

    Breathed his last/ lifeless.

    Deceased/ departed.

    Destitute of life/ without life.

    Inanimate.

    Disobedient= apeitheo=

    Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

    To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

    To refuse belief and obedience.

    Not to comply with.

    Live=

    Zao-

    To live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)

    Active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God

    To be in full vigour
     
  20. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit

    Physical death .... can one be physically dead and physically alive at the same time? No

    Can one be alive and spiritually dead? Yes

    If one is disobedient are they physically or spiritually dead? spiritually

    Dead or alive?

    Revelation 3:1

    "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

    Ephesians 2:1

    And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

    Ephesians 2:5

    even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

    Colossians 2:13

    When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

    Romans 8:6

    For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

    Romans 8:10

    If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    John 5:25

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

    Luke 15:24

    for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

    Luke 15:32

    'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"

    1 John 3:14

    We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

    Romans 7:10

    and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;

    Jeremiah 21:8

    "You shall also say to this people, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death.

    Romans 7:9

    I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
     
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