• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Is there a second chance after death?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by W2L, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,604
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Agreed. Therefore, in context with the passage, Daniel 12:2 can only be properly interpreted to mean that there will only be eternal and everlasting contempt for those who are not saved. Hell, by whatever name it is called or however it is described (lake of fire or eternal darkness) is eternal/everlasting/forever. One cannot have their cake and eat it too. If we are to conclude that Hell is temporary, we must then conclude that Heaven is temporary also. A conclusion that I believe everyone here, to include myself, adamantly reject.
     
  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +921
    Non-Denom
    The koine aionios is indeed from the Hebrew olam.

    Aionios is used to express "everlasting life" & "everlasting punishment".

    Regarding the argument that if the punishment of the unbelievers has an end, then the life of the believers has an end also at the end of the ages.

    Zao life does not end at time because death is abolished (1 Cor. 15:26). The life of the eons ends when all are vivified at the end or consummation of the eons (1 Cor. 15:24).

    Life itself, however, continues on interminably.

    The argument that in 2 Cor. 4:18 eonian must mean eternal because it is set in contrast with the word temporal meaning enduring for time as opposed to eternity.

    But the Greek word translated temporal has no connection with the word for time; it is literally ‘toward season,’ and means temporary or for the era. In this passage eonian is used in contrast between our afflictions which last for a brief season, and our promised long enduring eonian glory, which lasts until all opens out into the glorious consummation when God become All in all.

    All death swallowed in God Life

    Word for today=

    Proskairos

    For a season.

    Rendered “temporal” in 2 Cor. 4.18

    The Greek word translated temporal has no connection with the word for time; it is literally ‘toward season,’ and means temporary or for the era. In this passage eonian is used in contrast between our afflictions which last for a brief season, and our promised long enduring eonian glory, which lasts until all opens out into the glorious consummation when God become All in all.

    God's Kingdom Ministries :: The Meaning of Eternal and Everlasting
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  3. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    +495
    Christian
    Married
    I do not see how you come to that conclusion...even though you seem to have spelled it out and it so convinces you. There is no cake and eat it too about this. Both heaven and hell last an eternity says Daniel 12:2, the Gospels and probably not a few Epistles. The shame and contempt are suffered right along with the punishment of eternal hell fire...in my view.
     
  4. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +757
    Non-Denom
    Married
    In the Kingdom, Age follows Age, until the Son turns said Kingdom over to the Father. Only then does God become All in all, and true eternity ensues. See I Corinthians 15.
     
  5. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,604
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    So would that be a "yes"? Life in heaven is only temporary?
     
  6. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +757
    Non-Denom
    Married
    First, I prefer to use the term "Kingdom" instead of "Heaven." Second, the Ages to come in the Kingdom will be temporal (or temporary if you will), but eventually Eternity ensues...something we can't yet get our minds around.

    No, I don't have all the answers.
     
  7. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    +495
    Christian
    Married
    Please give a citation that states in the Kingdom, Age follows Age...the rest of that passage does read as the Scripture you cite. Also, "true eternity"? Are you stating that there is some "other type of eternity"?
    I'm no so certain you can claim that.
    Also, these passages should weigh in for your consideration (esp. if you are a "millennialist")...
    I Corinthians 15:25-28:
    For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
    Jesus, in other words, is reigning now...from the time of His ascension. ...
    Ephesians 2:6-7:
    And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
    As we do our Kingdom work we are reigning with Christ.
    Hence, the 1000 year reign is figurative language for the period of time from the time of Christ's ascension until the unknown date of His return. All Revelation passages can be understood by the context of the rest of the Bible. It is riddle-like in nature. If you are not familiar with this approach and don't trust it, consider that Christ Himself points us to this riddle-like nature when He unravels for us the meaning of the candlesticks and the stars for example...then too this is a Revelation and revelations need to be made plain.
    Here for example is the back up passage for solving the 1000 year reign...
    II Peter 3:8-9:
    But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
    Why does this solve it? I believe it is obvious, but...
    Jesus points to the 1000 years wherein He reigns with the saints in Revelation 20. This is the Ephesians passage statement above...Jesus and the saints reign until Christ returns on the Judgement Day which is an unknown time as Peter states...basically he is saying it may be short or long. The 1000 Years is used because the Epistle of II Peter has already taught us that. In many ways the book of Revelation is like a quiz or test on the Scriptures requiring us to solve the riddle by using the Scriptures. Where do we go for spiritual knowledge? We are to go to God's Word and find His good and pleasant and precious counsel. He rewards this route.
     
  8. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +757
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Don't read too much into my terminology, for I am not a theologian. Citation is possible tomorrow, tired and signing off.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  9. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    +495
    Christian
    Married
    OK, I won't, but wanted some further insight into your insights. :)
    No comment at all on my approach...or don't I count?
     
  10. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,604
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yet he wrote a 217 page book on how hell is either temporary or nobody goes there. I cannot help but notice that his point of view leave more questions than those answered.
     
  11. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    +495
    Christian
    Married
    I will reply that it is not temporary and that is made clear from the Bibles own words which describe eternity as I have already mentioned.
    What do you think of the amillennialism? My post on it (only in part of course) is post #168. This doctrine precludes any second chance for heaven...or second judgement...second chance.
     
  12. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    +495
    Christian
    Married
    hmmm...didn't know that...unusual. Did the book sell well?
     
  13. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    +495
    Christian
    Married
    Well, signing off...look forward to some dialogue later.
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +921
    Non-Denom
    Aionios zoe is defined by St. John not as length, but rather, quality of union and communion.

    "This is life aionios, that we may know You, and Jesus Christ whom You did send."

    And they [the goats] will go away into lasting correction, but the righteous into lasting life .

    Lasting correction is correction which endures. At some point it comes to an end. Lasting life is life which endures. But it just so happens that the lasting life we receive from Christ endures forever. But the idea of “forever” is not inherent in the word “αἰωνιος”.

    The true Greek word for “eternal” is “αἰδιος”. That word is found in the following verse:

    Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal (αἰδιος) power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. Romans 1:20
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  15. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    +495
    Christian
    Married
    Even by the account of poor Lazarus and the rich man we see no change could be made in the rich man's judgement/position once he died...nothing could persuade God.
     
  16. (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

    (° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,604
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    He said it was unpublished. So perhaps it is still in work. My thoughts are that 217 pages is a relatively small number given the sheer number of biblical passages that will have to be addressed. His argument is basically that all the theological work that has been done in the last 2000 years has been wrong and he is right. Anytime someone makes such a claim my spider senses are triggered.
     
  17. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    +495
    Christian
    Married
    Oh, yes, I agree. One needs to humble oneself to arrive at truth and it doesn't come with the thought that one is always right. As for the "book"...best left unpublished.
     
  18. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    +757
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I would never state that I am always right, but for you to dismiss my book having never read it, is worse.

    My method was not to put a pedestal under myself, but to find an answer to my own trilemma, which was this: Which is correct, damnation, annihilation or universal reconciliation? Note that I tossed out reincarnation from the start. The fellow you quoted above, who has funny faces for a forum name, seems to think the conventional damnationist view is correct and dominant, but there are powerful arguments for all three (as I treated them) hypotheses about our post-death destinies. Be aware that the terms of my being here on the Christian Forums does not allow me to argue fully in the General Theology sub-forum. I will ask this - if all are saved, should you not greet it with joy? Further, should you not eagerly seek to see if it is true?
     
  19. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    +495
    Christian
    Married
    I dismiss many books and topics, so no offense on that basis. I do not make it my chief endeavor to study all the many philosophies and so called doctrines and theories there are in the world in great depth...I'd be running my race in vain. I only study the Bible in-depth and compare what I do hear with what I find in the word of God.
    I notice you do not address my many points...from the Scriptures. Also, upon hearing that you do not believe in heaven for the just...righteousness declared by God on the basis of faith and damnation for the evil...I conclude, better that a book such as yours not be printed...for your sake (in hopes you'll find true faith and not have to deal with the huge mistake of publishing a book which you'd very much regret as a Christian...a book lending confusion to the unsaved.) I hope if you do publish a book you will leave room for a sequel with greater hopes.
     
Loading...