Is the "Secret Rapture" Biblical?

[Big Scary]

Who says it will be a secret? Isn't that an example of the logical fallacy of poisoning the well?

Well, AFPJ wanted to know what verses were used to support it by those who believe in it. I was just telling him what I remember from my youth. The Plymouth Brethren are the--dare I use the word?--denomination in which the doctrine of the secret rapture was developed. The doctrines of the Plymouth Brethren have their origins in the private Bible study of John Nelson Darby. The impetus for Darby's study was that some eschatological passages seemed to him to depict the Second Coming as something the entire world will witness, while other passages seemed to him to depict it as something secret which only the Church will know about. To solve this apparent contradiction, Darby split the Second Coming into two phases, the first being the secret rapture, and the second being the glorious Second Coming of Christ seven years later. I have noticed that Evangelicals who believe in the secret rapture seem not to be using these verses any more (or at least, I'm not hearing anybody quoting them any more), so I provided AFPJ with some information that he requested. There are other verses as well, but other posters quoted them above, so I didn't bother going over them again. I don't claim that anything I said in my previous post is correct doctrine. I'm just relating what some other people believe.

 

[TCassidy]

Yes, I am aware of all of that, but the idea of a "secret" rapture is a fable. How can something be "secret" that millions of people know about?

 

[Big Scary]

How can something be "secret" that millions of people know about?

Because those who don't participate in it won't know what happened and won't have any explanation for it.

 

[TCassidy]

Because those who don't participate in it won't know what happened and won't have any explanation for it.

Sez who?

 

[Big Scary]

Sez who?

Okay Dude, I'm tired of being trolled.

 

[TCassidy]

Okay Dude, I'm tired of being trolled.

It is a legitimate question. Who teaches that those left behind will be unaware of it and/or have no explanation?

The vast majority of Darby/Scofield Dispensationalists do not indicate those left behind will not know what happened nor will they necessarily not have an explanation.

In fact, the main protagonist of the film purporting to tell the story of a man "Left Behind," Rayford Steele, an airline pilot who was told many of his passengers had disappeared, when he went home he realized his wife and son had also disappeared, knew immediately what had happened. (Bearing in mind this is all fiction, not bible.)

If several tens of millions of people disappearing is a "secret" it seems to me to be the worst kept secret of all time.

Don't get me wrong. I don't have a "rapture" agenda. I am an Historic Chiliast, and we tend to be post-trib, also sometimes called “One-coming believers” who see the rapture as coincidental to the second coming. I just don't see any reason to start a discussion with a pejorative that tends to poison the well.

 

[Big Scary]

It is a legitimate question. Who teaches that those left behind will be unaware of it and/or have no explanation?

The vast majority of Darby/Scofield Dispensationalists do not indicate those left behind will not know what happened nor will they necessarily not have an explanation.

If several tens of millions of people disappearing is a "secret" it seems to me to be the worst kept secret of all time.

I just don't see any reason to start a discussion with a pejorative that tends to poison the well.

Dear TCassidy,

I apologize for my last post. However, I must say that I found the wording of your post previous to it rather unconducive to the furtherance of this conversation.

As for who it is who teaches that those left behind by the rapture will not notice that anybody is missing, I would say no one--at least no one that I've ever heard of (although I'll offer a hypothetical counter-example to this below).

As for who it is who teaches that those left behind will have no [VALID] explanation, I would say: every Plymouth Brother that I've ever met. (Yes, I inserted the word "valid" there. I apologize if you think I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm trying to keep this debate as compact as possible.) Your assertion that the vast majority of Darby/Scofield Dispensationalists do not teach that those left behind will lack for a valid explanation certainly comes as quite a surprise to me. I was taught that those left behind would have a false explanation or explanations. This was supported (or prooftexted, depending on how one looks at it) by the following verses: "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2nd Thessalonians 2:11-12) I heard all manner of conjectures as to what these delusions might be, e. g.: "The 'space brothers' abducted them in their UFOs because those taken away would have hindered or prevented the great leap forward in spiritual evolution which we're now experiencing under our new glorious leader (i. e. the Beast)."

I just realized another possible interpretation that I've never heard before. The "strong delusion" might just be that nobody notices that anyone is missing. If I had floated this interpretation among my old Plymouth Brethren congregation, I bet it would have been accepted as yet another valid possibility.

I guess, to sum up, I should say that the "secret" part of the Rapture was viewed, first, as that those left behind would not know the true explanation and would accept a false explanation (excepting those who get saved during the Great Tribulation, who would learn the truth upon their acceptance of the Gospel--but in a sense, it's secret from them too because they didn't experience it), and second, it's a secret even from us today because we don't know the details of the joys that the raptured are supposed to experience in heaven while the Great Tribulation is taking place on the earth.

You seem to indicate that I began this discussion with a "pejorative." I don't know what you're referring to. Could you please explain so that I might respond?

 

[TCassidy]

You seem to indicate that I began this discussion with a "pejorative." I don't know what you're referring to. Could you please explain so that I might respond?

I was referring to the OP by AFPJ as seen in the title.

I have read just about every major published work on Dispensationalism (and several minor ones) and I can't find where any of the authors believed or even mentioned a "secret rapture." That would include the works of such luminaries among Dispensationalists as Lewis Sperry Chafer, Charles Ryrie, John H. Gerstner, Harry Ironside, R. B Thieme, and some of the more contemporary authors such as Craig Blaising and Darrell Bock.

The only people I have noticed using the term "secret rapture" are those who are setting up an argument against a pre-trib catching away of the saints. Rather similar to non-futurists (or perhaps more correctly anti-futurists) who commit the logical fallacy (guilt by association) of trying to link futurism, including Premillennialism, to the 16th century Catholic Jesuit Francisco Ribera, when, in reality, pre-Christian Jews had a futuristic theology which was even mentioned in the New Testament in John 6:15 where the Jews are going to take Jesus and make Him King by force.

I am all in favor of discussing dispensationalism, but I don't think it is a good starting point to force, via the thread title and the OP, those who are dispensationalists to defend something they don't accept as either true or necessary to the dispensationalist position.

Maybe I am just being pedantic. If so just mark it off to a retired teacher with too much time on his hands.

 

[DeaconDean]

I do not see any mention of the Bride of Christ, or His Bride in that passage. Can you give any scripture that references the Bride you mention here?

I Corinthians 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
​

Paul, talking to the brethren, states there is an instantaneous raising of the dead. We are told of two resurrections in the Revelation, and this refers to the first resurrection. Notice it happens at the LAST TRUMP. If the events of the Tribulation Period, and Great Tribulation, happen after this (hence, pre-trib. rapture) how many trumpets are to be blown after the last trump?
.

Just want to say that there is always a trumpet sounding in reference to the Lord except on His birth.

In Psalms we read:

"God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet." -Psa. 47:5 (KJV)

Now strangely enough, we don't see this happening in the passage referring to Jesus' ascent into heaven.

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." -Acts 1:9-11 (KJV)

This is the only passage in the New Testament that records Jesus' ascent into heaven. That don't necessarily mean it didn't happen, just that it wasn't recorded.

In both passages of Paul's writings, 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-18 we do have the sounding of the trumpet.

However, in 2 Cor. 1:7-8, Rev. 19:11-21; there are very different events described.

Then you have to factor in the seven trumpets of Revelation. (These are judgments though)

In order for scripture to harmonize, in order for scripture to not contradict itself, Acts 1:9-11; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-18 "harmonize."

2 Thes. 1:7-8; Rev. 19:11-21 do not.

Now, having said that, Acts 1:11 says: "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Show me, I challenge you, show me where Jesus ascended up into heaven:

"the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" -1 Thess. 1:7-8 (KJV)

Or, that Jesus ascended up into heaven:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." -Rev. 19:11 (KJV)

1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-18 must be a separate event than the ones recorded as shown.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hammster]

ADVISOR HAT ON


Thread cleaned due to a troll.


ADVISOR HAT OFF

 

[OzSpen]

It is a legitimate question. Who teaches that those left behind will be unaware of it and/or have no explanation?

The vast majority of Darby/Scofield Dispensationalists do not indicate those left behind will not know what happened nor will they necessarily not have an explanation.

In fact, the main protagonist of the film purporting to tell the story of a man "Left Behind," Rayford Steele, an airline pilot who was told many of his passengers had disappeared, when he went home he realized his wife and son had also disappeared, knew immediately what had happened. (Bearing in mind this is all fiction, not bible.)

If several tens of millions of people disappearing is a "secret" it seems to me to be the worst kept secret of all time.

Don't get me wrong. I don't have a "rapture" agenda. I am an Historic Chiliast, and we tend to be post-trib, also sometimes called “One-coming believers” who see the rapture as coincidental to the second coming. I just don't see any reason to start a discussion with a pejorative that tends to poison the well.

TC,

So, you don't expect this to happen with a secret rapture:

I, like you, consider the Bible teaches historic premillennialism - the rapture coincides with the second coming. Some call it post-tribulation rapture.

Oz

 

[TCassidy]

So, you don't expect this to happen with a secret rapture:

I doubt the guy sitting next to him would have called it a secret.

 

[OzSpen]

I doubt the guy sitting next to him would have called it a secret.

TC,

I've done a wee bit of research into the origin of the pre-trib rapture, based on a previous thread on CF.com. This is not in any way comprehensive, but one early document has been found, according to Norm Geisler, that supports pre-mill pre-trib rapture.

See my article: What is the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture of Christians?
This is taken from my article:

Geisler claimed that with the discovery of Ephraem of Syria’s teaching (from ca. AD 306-373), it can be established that pretribulationism was taught in the early church. Earlier in this volume, Geisler established that premillennialism was taught in the early church shortly after the time of the apostles. His view is that the imminence of Christ’s return was emphasised from the start of the church, that ‘pretribulationism is based on a realistic concept of imminence’, and that ‘there is ample New Testament evidence to support pretribulationism’ (Geisler 2005:632).​

Oz

 

[TCassidy]

I have no doubt that historic writings can be understood to support pre-trib pre-mil. My opinion is that those wrings do not necessarily require a dispensational hermeneutic.

 

[OzSpen]

I have no doubt that historic writings can be understood to support pre-trib pre-mil. My opinion is that those wrings do not necessarily require a dispensational hermeneutic.

TC,

Why don't you provide links to those historic writings supporting pre-trib pre-mill?

Oz

 

[now faith]

Frankly I do not know, when we look at our world today it makes you wonder are we there yet?

Here is a passage that would suggest mid trib.

Daniel 12: 1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
[ They that turn many to rightousness?]
[I suppose to do this you would have to be on earth.]
[So the dead in Christ shall rise, and judged.]

1 Thessalonians 4: 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord .

The time of trouble in Daniel prior to being caught up, seems to be the key.

No debate please, this is only observation.
I doubt anyone could know how it will unfold.

 

[now faith]

I have pondered this passage all my Christian life...51 years

Matthew 24: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

We very well could be in the time of tribulation now.
Knowledge has increased by a huge margin in a short time.
It seems everywhere you turn we have Paul's statement :

2 Timothy 3: 1. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4. Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

There are strange things going on world wide.
Strange clouds,red tide killing huge amounts of fish and whales are beaching themselves.
Strange colors in the sky, we had a lightning storm with a pink ball in the middle.
Africa has a crack in the earth large enough to be broken off into the sea.
And so on many more things.
People have become narrissisic beast, along with those proclaiming Christ that are tainted with the Blood of the innocent on there garment.
Mankind has become more irrational evil gets a pass , and those who are good get accused of what the evil ones have been doing for years.

I certainly hope it is soon, this World is not my home.

 

[OzSpen]

We very well could be in the time of tribulation now.
Knowledge has increased by a huge margin in a short time.
It seems everywhere you turn we have Paul's statement :

nf,

Compared with what is currently experienced by people (incl Christians) in the Middle East, we in the Western world have seen nothing of the great tribulation - in my view.

Take a read of the persecution in China and the blowing up of an evangelical church building.

The newsletter of Christian Faith & Freedom provides further insight into what the church in the third world is experiencing.

Oz

 

[now faith]

Exactly it's World wide.
To quote Reagan:
America is the shining city on the hill for the rest of the World.)
This would include our allies as part of the Western World.
Corruption is everywhere , and it begins with the falling away from God.

 

[DeaconDean]

Frankly I do not know, when we look at our world today it makes you wonder are we there yet?

Here is a passage that would suggest mid trib.

Daniel 12: 1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
[ They that turn many to rightousness?]
[I suppose to do this you would have to be on earth.]
[So the dead in Christ shall rise, and judged.]

1 Thessalonians 4: 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord .

The time of trouble in Daniel prior to being caught up, seems to be the key.

No debate please, this is only observation.
I doubt anyone could know how it will unfold.

No debate, however, I just want to point one verse that everybody overlooks.

When addressing the "Great Tribulation", everybody wants to pull out of Matthew 24 and believe that settles the score, or is the last word.

Wrong.

I have said it over and over again. There are only two types of people in the world; Jew; Gentile.

Now it is true also that we become heirs of Abraham upon being born again, but either you are born a Jew or your born a Gentile.

In Luke 21:24, we read:

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

I want to point out this:

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:" (21:24a)

This, has already happened. History has proven it.

"Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (21:24b)

Jerusalem, is the birthplace for three of the worlds major religions; Judaism, Christianity, Islam.

For 1915 years, almost two millennia, Jerusalem was held by "Gentiles". 1948 changed that, to a degree.

As I have said, Jerusalem, is the birthplace for three of the worlds major religions.

However, since the early AD 900's, Islam has held one of the worlds most sacred spots, and they have built a shrine to the place. It's called the Dome of the Rock. Where supposedly, Mohamed was taken up.

While Israel is considered by the United Nations a "Free and Independent State", Jerusalem is still "trodden down of the Gentiles". And its just my opinion that until Israel regains control of the Dome of the Rock, we are close but not yet in the tribulation period.

God Bless

Till all are one.