Is the rapture?

[BABerean2]

Ok two people. prophets
They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

Moses and Elijah did not have the power to shut up heaven or bring down fire, in and of themselves.
It was God who shut up heaven and brought down the fire.
Moses and Elijah were men, made of flesh just like us, who were used by God.


If God desired it, he could use you to announce the shutting up of heaven or the bringing down of fire.

There is a battle going on today in the modern State of Israel between Orthodox rabbis and those who have accepted Christ.

 

[Randy777]

Moses and Elijah did not have the power to shut up heaven or bring down fire, in and of themselves.
It was God who shut up heaven and brought down the fire.
Moses and Elijah were men, made of flesh just like us, who were used by God.


If God desired it, he could use you to announce the shutting up of heaven or the bringing down of fire.

There is a battle going on today in the modern State of Israel between Orthodox rabbis and those who have accepted Christ.

Yes, just as the fire is from God. I fail to see your point and objection to Rev 11 as stated. God will choose these individuals and they will testify for 1260 days.

 

[BABerean2]

God will choose these individuals

Based on the words of Jesus in Revelation 1:20, the candlesticks are not individuals.
They are symbols of the churches.

Based on the words of Paul in Romans chapter 11, the olive trees are not individuals.
They are the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite and Gentile branches.

How do you deal with the description of the witnesses as "candlesticks" and "olive trees" in Revelation chapter 11?

Do you ignore the words of Christ in Revelation 1:20?

.

 

[Randy777]

Based on the words of Jesus in Revelation 1:20, the candlesticks are not individuals.
They are symbols of the churches.

Based on the words of Paul in Romans chapter 11, the olive trees are not individuals.
They are the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite and Gentile branches.

How do you deal with the description of the witnesses as "candlesticks" and "olive trees" in Revelation chapter 11?

Do you ignore the words of Christ in Revelation 1:20?

.

Based on Rev 11 that is clear to all 2 individuals and Zech 14:4 they are two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.
I haven't ignored Jesus's testimony as thats why I read a "1260 days" of testimony by these two witnesses. And they have been given authority to shut up the sky so that it doesn't rain. When they are killed they will be refused burial. Raised to life after 3-1/2 days.

 

[BABerean2]

When they are killed they will be refused burial. Raised to life after 3-1/2 days.

Is their resurrection and ascension in any way related to the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18?




Zec 14:4　 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.　

.

 

[Randy777]

Is their resurrection and ascension in any way related to the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18?




Zec 14:4　 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.　

.

I think not. And I believe rev 11 is self explanatory on its on. God will appoint his two witnesses. I think it’s closer to the sounding of the 5th trumpet of God. Zech 14:4 makes a way of escape from the surrounding armies. Not the 2nd coming. For sure the lords return is close. The beasts reign is only 42 months.

 

[Randy777]

Is their resurrection and ascension in any way related to the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18?




Zec 14:4　 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.　

.

No I think the mount of olives being split makes a way of escape from the surrounding armies. The people flee in the desert. I think that timing is close to the sounding of the 5th trump of God. The beasts reign is 42 months. Do you see rev 12:6 associated with Zech 14:4? Rev 11:13 has an earthquake which could explain the splitting of the Mount of Olives. Its the same city and timing.
IF the splitting is the sounding of the last trump then they would be caught up to the Lord REF people fleeing by the Valley created through the mount of olives.

 

[BABerean2]

I think not. And I believe rev 11 is self explanatory on its on. God will appoint his two witnesses. I think it’s closer to the sounding of the 5th trumpet of God. Zech 14:4 makes a way of escape from the surrounding armies. Not the 2nd coming. For sure the lords return is close. The beasts reign is only 42 months.

Are the two witnesses Christians?

In post #84 you said Zechariah 14:4 deals with the two witnesses.

Is Revelation 11:15-18 about the Second Coming?

.

 

[Randy777]

Are the two witnesses Christians?

In post #84 you said Zechariah 14:4 deals with the two witnesses.

Is Revelation 11:15-18 about the Second Coming?

.

The witnesses in Rev are christians -In the city where their "Lord" was crucified

As I stated rev 11 speaks for itself. God will appoint two witnesses etc etc etc..

You went to another portion of scripture,(in my opinion), to take away from the direct meaning of REV 11 that is clearly speaking of two individuals. Killed and raised on their feet in their human bodies. Then caught up to heaven not raptured at the 2nd coming.

So using your own reasoning I showed TWO Olive Trees and two lamp stands being used to describe two individuals who are set apart to serve, or stand beside, the Lord of all the Earth. Jesus is Lord of all the earth.

Further more if the splitting of the mount of olives is to make a valley to escape the surrounding armies for the people to flee why would they need such help if that was the 2nd coming as they would be raptured if they belong to the Lord? Practicing Judaism does not bring salvation. In fact that religion denies the Lord.

I think rather they are believers fleeing the armies of the lawless one and will be given a little help by God for the reign of the beast. So since the angel who comes out of the abyss, who is released at the 5th trumpet of God is responsible for their brief deaths. Since 3-1/2 years is such a short period of time considering Zech 14 was given in the distant past the timing appears very close to gather (2nd coming and the mount of olives being split in two)

When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

[BABerean2]

You went to another portion of scripture,(in my opinion), to take away from the direct meaning of REV 11 that is clearly speaking of two individuals.

It was you in post #84 above that went to Zechariah 14:4, not me.

I went to Revelation 11:15-18, which is in the same chapter as the two witnesses.

.

 

[Randy777]

It was you in post #84 above that went to Zechariah 14:4, not me.

I went to Revelation 11:15-18, which is in the same chapter as the two witnesses.

.

It should be clear to all.
They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
Rev 11
Vs 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.
After the 42 months has been fulfilled

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Randy777]

It was you in post #84 above that went to Zechariah 14:4, not me.

I went to Revelation 11:15-18, which is in the same chapter as the two witnesses.

.

The reference should have been Zech 4:14.
You did go outside chapter 11 to take away from the stated meaning of two appointed by the Lord to prophesy for 1260 days in the city where their lord was crucified.

 

[BABerean2]

You did go outside chapter 11 to take away from the stated meaning of two appointed by the Lord to prophesy for 1260 days in the city where their lord was crucified.

I went to the words of Christ in Revelation 1:20, which reveal that the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches.
If Christ used the candlesticks as a symbol of the churches, why would we think the symbol changed later in the same book?
Since the Book of Revelation comes from Christ, this would seem to be an obvious key to the interpretation of the passage.
I also clearly see the last trumpet in the Bible and the judgment of the dead in the same chapter in Revelation 11:15-18.

We find that the two olive trees are also a symbol of the New Covenant Church in Romans chapter 11. Nobody could honestly argue that Paul did not use this symbol in describing the Church.
You stated that the witnesses are members of the Church.

We often get ourselves into trouble by using less clear passages from the Old Testament, instead of looking through the eyes of the New Testament writers.

.

 

[Randy777]

If Christ used the candlesticks as a symbol of the churches, why would we think the symbol changed later in the same book?


.

Because what was given in the same passage =>And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”a
Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial

And I honestly see the 7th trumpet coming soon not immediately as the beast reign is 42 months.
vs1-2
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
vs 11-12
But after the three and a half days the breathb of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
vs 13-14
At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

Then the 7th trumpet is sounded. which is after vs 12 not at the same time Coming soon the 42 months must be fulfilled first. which would be real soon considering it been almost 2000 years since this testimony was first given.

 

[Randy777]

Moses and Elijah did not have the power to shut up heaven or bring down fire, in and of themselves.
It was God who shut up heaven and brought down the fire.
Moses and Elijah were men, made of flesh just like us, who were used by God.


If God desired it, he could use you to announce the shutting up of heaven or the bringing down of fire.

There is a battle going on today in the modern State of Israel between Orthodox rabbis and those who have accepted Christ.

I agree to the context that God would act according to their bidding in regard to shutting up the heaven so it doesn't rain and turning waters into blood and that the fire that consumes those that try to stop their testimony before the 1260 days is from God. As I believe a loving God warns and warns and its His set purpose to give this last testimony and powerful signs before the beast is released into the world so that any in those days that have even a shred of love and faith for God they will believe. Those that take joy in their murder will most likely be deceived by the powerful delusion that is released into the world by God and so be condemned for they have not believed and have not repented of their evil ways. For if any willfully worship the beast their place will be the 2nd death.
REV 11
They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

They have authority which means when they act God will fulfill the act so in that context they do have power. Just as the apostles had power by the authority Jesus granted them such as,(silver and gold i do not have but what i have i give you in the name of Jesus of Nazareth walk), and Gods Holy Spirit healed at their bidding.

 

[Randy777]

Moses and Elijah did not have the power to shut up heaven or bring down fire, in and of themselves.
It was God who shut up heaven and brought down the fire.
Moses and Elijah were men, made of flesh just like us, who were used by God.


If God desired it, he could use you to announce the shutting up of heaven or the bringing down of fire.

There is a battle going on today in the modern State of Israel between Orthodox rabbis and those who have accepted Christ.

If I went to some one of another faith and attempted (for their salvation) to show the love of God in Christ Jesus and they wanted me to prove Jesus is the one Moses wrote about in the law and in whom the prophets also wrote I would reply "why, I am just trying to help you"

If I went to one in Judaism and they stated that the Gospel message is offensive to them I would reply "but that doesn't make it a lie"

If one in Judaism state to me I don't need Jesus I can just ask God to forgive me I would reply to them "its not for you to choose how to forgive sin"

I learned those replies from a reliable witness

 

[christianforumsuser]

Can't anyone pretend to be holy?
If you have the right gospel and Savior, and they speak a language...how about show the Bible better than they read it in confusion and tradition
With faith
Didn't it say the Greeks seek wisdom and the Jews a sign
I might not understand everything...if they have no need apparent, if they aren't a wicked sinner but perfect, what need of a physician do they have
But lots of people say they're sinners yet find no need to be spiriually minded
They like sin and tradition