Is the rapture?

[Randy777]

This is Jesus speaking in Rev 3:10

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

In the original Greek this word is "ek" which means "out of" as opposed to "through" so the proper translation would be:

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

I believe a similar promise was made to King Josiah. How was that fulfilled?

 

[jgr]

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Critics of pretribulationism sometimes state that belief in the rapture is a doctrinal development of recent origin. They argue that the doctrine of the rapture or any semblance of it was completely unknown before the early 1800s and the writings of John Nelson Darby. One of the most vocal and sensational critics of the rapture is Dave MacPherson, who argues that, "during the first 18 centuries of the Christian era, believers were never 'Rapture separaters' [sic]; they never separated the minor Rapture aspect of the Second Coming of Christ from the Second Coming itself."1

A second critic, John Bray, also vehemently opposes a pretribulational rapture, writing, "this teaching is not a RECOVERY of truth once taught and then neglected. No, it never was taught-for 1800 years nearly no one knew anything about such a scheme."2 More recently, pre-trib opponent Robert Van Kampen proclaimed, "The pretribulational rapture position with its dual parousias was unheard of in church history prior to 1830."3 In our previous issue of Pre-Trib Perspectives, I noted that pre-wrath advocate Marvin Rosenthal has also joined the chorus.4

Christian reconstructionists have also consistently and almost universally condemned premillennialism and pretribulationism, favoring instead, postmillen-nialism. One sample of their prolific and often vitri-olic opposition can be seen in Gary North's derisive description of the rapture as "the Church's hoped-for Escape Hatch on the world's sinking ship," which he, like MacPherson, believes was invented in 1830.5

How to Find the Rapture in History

Is pretribulationism as theologically bankrupt as its critics profess, or are there answers to these charges? If there are reasonable answers, then the burden of proof and historical argumentation shifts back to the critics. Rapture critics must acknowledge and interact with the historical and theological evidence.

Rapture critic William Bell has formulated three criteria for establishing the validity of a historical citation regarding the rapture. If any of his three criteria are met, then he acknowledges it is "of crucial importance, if found, whether by direct statement or clear inference." As will be seen, the Pseudo-Ephraem sermon meets not one, but two of his canons, namely, "Any mention that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years," and "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period."6

Pseudo-Ephraem's Rapture Statement

I vividly remember the phone call at my office late one afternoon from Canadian prophecy teacher and writer Grant Jeffrey.7 He told me that he had found an ancient pre-trib rapture statement. I said, "Let's hear it." He read the following to me over the phone:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

I said that it sure sounds like a pre-trib statement and began to fire at him all the questions I have since received many times when telling others about the statement from Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.8 Grant's phone call started me on journey through many of the substantial libraries throughout the Washington, D.C. area in an effort to learn all I could about this historically significant statement. The more information I acquired led me to conclude that Grant is right to conclude that this is a pre-trib rapture statement of antiquity.

Who is Pseudo-Ephraem?

The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin.

It is not at all unreasonable to expect that a prolific and prominent figure such as Ephraem would have writings ascribed to him. While there is little support for Ephraem as the author of the Sermon on the End of the World, Caspari and Alexander have demonstrated that Pseudo-Ephraem was "heavily influenced by the genuine works of Ephraem."9 What is more difficult, though secondary to the main purpose of this article, is determining the exact date, purpose, location of, and extent of subsequent editorial changes to the sermon.10

Suggestions on the date of the writing of the original sermon range from as early as Wilhelm Bousset's 373 date,11 to Caspari's estimation of sometime between 565 and 627.12 Paul Alexander, after reviewing all the argumentation, favors a date for the final form similar to that suggested by Caspari,13 but Alexander also states simply, "It will indeed not be easy to decide on the matter."14 All are clear that it had to have been written before the advent of Islam.

Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon

The sermon consists of just under 1500 words, divided into ten sections and has been preserved in four Latin manuscripts. Three of these date from the eighth century and ascribe the sermon to Ephraem. A fourth manuscript from the ninth century, claims not Ephraem, but Isidore of Seville (d. 636) as author.15 Additionally, there are subsequent Greek and Syriac versions of the sermon which have raised questions regarding the language of the original manuscript. On the basis of lexical analysis and study of the biblical citations within the sermon with Latin, Greek, and Syriac versions of the Bible, Alexander believed it most probable that the homily was composed in Syriac, translated first into Greek, and then into Latin from the Greek.16 Regardless of the original language, the vocabulary and style of the extant copies are consistent with the writings of Ephraem and his era. It appears likely that the sermon was written near the time of Ephraem and underwent slight change during subsequent coping.

What is most significant for present-day readers is the fact that the sermon was popular enough to be translated into several languages fairly soon after its composition. The significance of the sermon for us today is that it represents a prophetic view of a pre-trib rapture within the orthodox circles of its day.

The sermon is built around the three themes of the title On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World and proceeds chronologically. The fact that the pre-trib statement occurs in section 2, while the antichrist and tribulation are developed throughout the middle sections, followed by Christ's second coming to the earth in the final section supports a pre-trib sequence. This characteristic of the sermon fits the first criteria outlined by William Bell, namely "that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years." Thus, phase one is the rapture statement from section 2; the interval of 3 1/2 years, 42 months, and 1,260 days, said to be the tribulation in sections 7 and 8; the second phase of Christ's return is noted in section 10 and said to take place "when the three and a half years have been completed."17

Why Pseudo-Ephraem's Statement is Pretribulational

After learning of Pseudo-Ephraem's rapture statement, I shared it with a number of colleagues. My favorite approach was to simply read the statement, free of any introductory remarks, and ask what they thought. Every person, whether pre-trib or not, concluded that it was some kind of pre-trib statement. A few thought it was a statement from such pre-trib proponents like John Walvoord orCharles Ryrie. Most noted the clear statement concerning the removal of believers before thetribulation as a reason for thinking the statement pre-trib. This is Bell's second criteria for identifying a pre-trib statement from the past, namely, "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period." Note the following reasons why this should be taken as a pre-trib statement:

1) Section 2 of the sermon begins with a statement about imminency: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent [Latin "immineat"] or overhanging."18 This is similar to the modern pre-trib view of imminency and considering the subsequent rapture statements supports a pre-trib scenario.

2) As I break down the rapture statement, notice the following observations: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered . . ." Gathered where? A later clause says they "are taken to the Lord." Where is the Lord? Earlier in the paragraph the sermon speaks of "the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion. . ." Thus the movement is from the earth toward the Lord who is apparently in heaven. Once again, in conformity to a translation scenario found in the pre-trib teaching.

The next phrase says that the gathering takes place "prior to the tribulation that is to come. . ." so we see that the event is pretribulational and the tribulation is future to the time in which Pseudo-Ephraem wrote.

The purpose for the gathering was so that they would not "see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of their sins." Here we have the purpose of the tribulation judgments stated and that was to be a time of judgment upon the world because of their sin, thus, the church was to be taken out.

3) Finally, the Byzantine scholar Paul Alexander clearly believed that Pseudo-Ephraem was teaching what we call today a pre-trib rapture. According to Alexander, most Byzantine apocalypses were concerned with how Christians would survive the time of severe persecution by Antichrist. The normal approach given by other apocalyptic texts was a shortening of the time to three and a half years, enabling the survival of some Christians.19 Unlike those texts, this sermon has Christians being removed from the time of tribulation. Alexander observed:

It is probably no accident that Pseudo-Ephraem does not mention the shortening of the time intervals for the Antichrist's persecution, for if prior to it the Elect are 'taken to the Lord,' i.e., participate at least in some measure in beatitude, there is no need for further mitigating action on their behalf. The Gathering of the Elect according to Pseudo-Ephraem is an alternative to the shortening of the time intervals.20

Conclusion

Regardless of what else the writer of this sermon believed, he did believe that all believers would be removed before the tribulation-a pre-trib rapture view. Thus, we have seen that those who have said that there was no one before 1830 who taught the pre-trib rapture position will have to revise their statements by well over 1,000 years. This statement does not prove the pre-trib position, only the Bible can do that, but it should change many people's historical views on the matter.

ENDNOTES

1 Dave MacPherson, The Great Rapture Hoax (Fletcher, NC: New Puritan Library, 1983), 15. For a refutation of MacPherson's charges see Thomas D. Ice, "Why the Doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture Did Not Begin with Margaret Macdonald," Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (1990): 155-68.

2 John L. Bray, The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching (Lakeland, FL.: John L. Bray Ministry, 1982), 31-32.

3 Robert Van Kampen, The Sign (Wheaton, IL.: Crossway Books, 1992), 445.

4 Thomas Ice, "Is The Pre-Trib Rapture A Satanic Deception?" Pre-Trib Perspectives (II:1; March 1995):1-3.

5 Gary North, Rapture Fever: Why Dispensationalism is Paralyzed (Tyler, TX.: Institute for Christian Economics, 1993), 105.

6 William E. Bell, "A Critical Evaluation of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine in Christian Eschatology" (Ph.D. diss., New York University, 1967), 26-27.

7 For more information on the Pseudo-Ephraem statement see Grant R. Jeffrey, Final Warning (Toronto: Frontier Research Publications, 1995). Forthcoming, Timothy Demy and Thomas Ice, "The Rapture and an Early Medieval Citation" Bibliotheca Sacra 152 (July 1995): 300-11. Grant R. Jeffrey, "A Pretribulational Rapture Statement in the Early Medieval Church" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, ed., When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies (Eugene, Or: Harvest House, 1995).

8 Grant Jeffrey found the statement in Paul J. Alexander, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, by (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985), 2.10. The late Alexander found the sermon in C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters, (Christiania, 1890), 208-20. This German work also contains Caspari's commentary on the sermon on pages 429-72.

9 Paul J. Alexander, "The Diffusion of Byzantine Apocalypses in the Medieval West and the Beginnings of Joachimism," in Prophecy and Millenarianism: Essays in Honour of Marjorie Reeves, ed. Ann Williams (Essex, U.K. : Longman, 1980), 59.

10 Paul J. Alexander, "Medieval Apocalypses as Historical Sources," American Historical Review 73 (1968): 1017. In this essay Alexander addresses in-depth the historical difficulties facing the interpreter of such texts. To these difficulties, issues of theological interpretation and concern must also be added.

11 W. Bousset, The Antichrist Legend, trans. A. H. Keane (London: Hutchinson and Co., 1896), 33-41. An early date is also accepted by Andrew R. Anderson, Alexander's Gate: Gog and Magog and the Enclosed Nations. Monographs of the Mediaeval Academy of America, no. 5. (Cambridge, MA.: Mediaeval Academy of America, 1932):16-18.

12 Caspari, 437-42.

13 Alexander, Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, 147. This leaves the possibility that the work may have been altered or revised prior to the date of the extant manuscripts.

14 Ibid., 145. Earlier, he writes: "All that is certain, is as Caspari pointed out, that it must have been written prior to Heraclius' victories over Sassanid Persia, for the author talks repeatedly of wars between Rome and Persia and such discussions do not make sense after Heraclius' victories and the beginning of the Arab invasions" (144).

15 Ibid., 136-37. The only critical edition is Caspari's which suffers a lack of objectivity in that he relied upon only two of the four extant manuscripts.

16 Ibid., 140-44.

17 Caspari, 219. English citations are taken from a translation of the sermon provided by Cameron

Rhoades, instructor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX.

18 Ibid., 210.

19 Alexander, 209.

20 Ibid., 210-11.

From an article by Thomas Ice:

"A history of the rapture is much more sophisticated and varied than one might initially think. The Pseudo-Ephraem document, Brother Dolcino, and Morgan Edwards could very well fit into some form of a pretribulational rapture. However, other suggested candidates either simply refer to the single second coming or the pre-conflagration view of Joseph Mede, which is dealt with in a separate paper."

Three tentative examples over 1800 years of true Church history does not an enduring doctrine make. Morgan Edwards is the only source who could possibly be considered authoritative.

None of the acclaimed historical giants of the faith, e.g. Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Chrysostom, or any of the Reformers; ever referred to the doctrine.

 

[Randy777]

There is no scripture that declares, states or suggests that anyone alive on earth will be caught up the lord apart from the resurrection of the saints on the last day. "The dead in Christ rise first"

Added for those who strain out a knat
The two witnesses in Rev 11 who were killed and then raised to life were caught up to heaven not the returning Lord on the last day.

 

[Dave Watchman]

There is no scripture that declares, states or suggests that anyone alive on earth will be caught up the lord apart from the resurrection of the saints on the last day. "The dead in Christ rise first"

"Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

"Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

"No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

"These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.​

 

[Randy777]

"Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

"Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

"No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

"These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.​

Thats the two witnesses not the church.
But after the three and a half days the breathb of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

 

[Barney]

"Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

"Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

"No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

"These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.​

If your preacher teaches the pretrib rapture, find another church immediately.

"Come up here" in the passage you quote happens well into the tribulation, not before. And, it's two witnesses taken up, not the body of Christian believers. And, those two witnesses were first killed, and were not taken up without first dying. Did you read the context?

 

[Dave Watchman]

If your preacher teaches the pretrib rapture, find another church immediately.

"Come up here" in the passage you quote happens well into the tribulation, not before. And, it's two witnesses taken up, not the body of Christian believers. And, those two witnesses were first killed, and were not taken up without first dying. Did you read the context?

No it looks like i didn't.

But I was responding to a statement:

"There is no scripture that declares, states or suggests that anyone alive on earth will be caught up the lord apart from the resurrection of the saints on the last day. "The dead in Christ rise first"​

Declares, states or suggests.

I think the two witnesses AND the 144,000 are going to "be caught up to the lord apart from the resurrection of the saints on the last day.

They are the "firstfruits".

They follow the Lamb.

Wherever He goes.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Thats the two witnesses not the church.
But after the three and a half days the breathb of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

That's for sure. And this is probably not the place to get into it but there are some who think the two witnesses are the Bible and the Holy Spirit AND two pairs of the 144,000. The two olive trees and the two lamp stands, two of one kind of thing and two of another kind. Jesus could be about to send out the 72 again in a big way, 72,000 pairs of them.

"They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

"And he said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”​

So it's possible that all of the 144,000 are going to be killed when the two witnesses' 1260 days of authority end. They are poured out as an offering to God and the Lamb. They are the ones that follow the Lamb, they are the ones who lay dead in the street 3.5 days. And they enjoy a private celebration for a job well done just before the second coming.

And if they are distributed to all nations, the whole world will be able to see the ones recognized from their location. They will be responsible for bringing in the numberless multitude that stands around the throne.

"No one could learn the song except the 144,000
who had been redeemed from the earth.

Follow the Lamb,
Wherever He goes.

 

[jgr]

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number can be depicted as 12, representing faithful OT saints, one from each of the 12 tribes.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing the 12 apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20). The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Thus we have...:

• 12 depicting the OT saints within the Church
• 12 depicting the NT saints within the Church
• 1000 depicting a large quantity (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11)

...when multiplied together, yielding 144,000 representing the Church through the ages in its fullness.

The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000

 

[BABerean2]

Rev 11:4　 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.　
Are the above two men made of wood and metal or are they a symbol of something?


Rom 11:24　 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?　

The two olive trees in Romans 11 are a symbol of the Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one New Covenant Church.


Rev 1:20　 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.　

In the verse above from the Book of Revelation Christ says the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches.

If you have been "born again" and want to see one of the two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11, then look in the mirror.

.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Randy777]

That's for sure. And this is probably not the place to get into it but there are some who think the two witnesses are the Bible and the Holy Spirit AND two pairs of the 144,000. The two olive trees and the two lamp stands, two of one kind of thing and two of another kind. Jesus could be about to send out the 72 again in a big way, 72,000 pairs of them.

"They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

"And he said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”​

So it's possible that all of the 144,000 are going to be killed when the two witnesses' 1260 days of authority end. They are poured out as an offering to God and the Lamb. They are the ones that follow the Lamb, they are the ones who lay dead in the street 3.5 days. And they enjoy a private celebration for a job well done just before the second coming.

And if they are distributed to all nations, the whole world will be able to see the ones recognized from their location. They will be responsible for bringing in the numberless multitude that stands around the throne.

"No one could learn the song except the 144,000
who had been redeemed from the earth.

Follow the Lamb,
Wherever He goes.

Killed maybe but not raised up life and caught up to heaven. Those killed will be raised on the last day. See the 1st resurrection. Those faithful witnesses beheaded by the beast are part of the resurrection of us all on the last day. For the lord will send out his angels to gather the elect from the ends of the heavens. A bodily resurrection.

 

[Randy777]

Rev 11:4　 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.　
Are the above two men made of wood and metal or are they a symbol of something?


Rom 11:24　 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?　

The two olive trees in Romans 11 are a symbol of the Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one New Covenant Church.


Rev 1:20　 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.　

In the verse above from the Book of Revelation Christ says the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches.

If you have been "born again" and want to see one of the two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11, then look in the mirror.

.

Killed their bodies refused burial. Raised up on their feet all this states two men not Israel and the church or gentiles.

 

[Randy777]

From what I see the 2 witnesses give one last warning and testimony before God allows the lie of the beast to enter the world and deceive those who refuse to repent and believe. As a loving God warns and warns up front. Thats why God would not allow the testimony to be stopped until it was completed. 1260 days. And if any in those days has even a shred of faith and love for God they will believe the testimony of the two witnesses. As for those who took joy in the killing of those two witnesses they will most likely be deceived by the beast and worship and follow the beast and be condemned. The beasts will reign will be for 42 months. So I don't see the timing the same as the resurrection as a good reason for putting those together is stated in scripture. My reasoning would be after God has given the world a final last chance to repent and believe by the great signs given in rev 11 for the 2 witnesses are raised up on their feet and taken up to heaven in full view of all then God will punish all those who took joy in the killing of those two witnesses.

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[BABerean2]

Killed their bodies refused burial. Raised up on their feet all this states two men not Israel and the church or gentiles.

Nobody can deny that the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols.

We know the "Lamb" is always Christ, instead of an animal.

We know the "dragon" is always Satan, instead of a giant lizard from the island of Komodo.


Who are His "witnesses"?

Mat_18:16　 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Act_1:8　 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act_2:32　 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Act_5:32　 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Act_10:39　 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Act_13:31　 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

1Th_2:10　 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

1Ti_6:12　 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Heb_12:1　 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


The witnesses are resurrected in Revelation chapter 11, which contains the 7th trumpet in verse 15, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

The time of the judgment of the dead is found in verse 18.

Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　
(The text above states that at the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever"?)

Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　
Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　
Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　


The judgment of "all" the dead is found in John 5:27-30.
These verses contain both the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead.
How many is "all"?


Joh 5:27　 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.　

Joh 5:28　 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,　

Joh 5:29　 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.　


Joh 5:30　 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.　


He will judge both the living and the dead at His return.

2Ti 4:1　 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

.
　

 

[Randy777]

Nobody can deny that the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols.

We know the "Lamb" is always Christ, instead of an animal.

We know the "dragon" is always Satan, instead of a giant lizard from the island of Komodo.


Who are His "witnesses"?

Mat_18:16　 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Act_1:8　 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act_2:32　 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Act_5:32　 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Act_10:39　 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Act_13:31　 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

1Th_2:10　 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

1Ti_6:12　 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Heb_12:1　 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


The witnesses are resurrected in Revelation chapter 11, which contains the 7th trumpet in verse 15, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

The time of the judgment of the dead is found in verse 18.

Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.　
(The text above states that at the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever"?)

Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,　
Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　
Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　


The judgment of "all" the dead is found in John 5:27-30.
These verses contain both the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead.
How many is "all"?


Joh 5:27　 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.　

Joh 5:28　 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,　

Joh 5:29　 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.　


Joh 5:30　 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.　


He will judge both the living and the dead at His return.

2Ti 4:1　 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

.
　

None of all your wrote takes away from the two witnesses as men. Nor places their murder and brought back to life as men and caught up to heaven as the same timing of the resurrection. Nor even hints or states the 144,000 witnesses are also caught up to heaven. Nor teaches a pretribulation gathering of the saints.

ARE you a JW?

Randy

 

[Randy777]

And about the resurrection it was taught and understood by all it would be on the last day. That Jesus would send out His angels ,which includes Michael, to gather the elect from the ends of the heavens. The resurrection of us all. That it is a bodily resurrection. That their will be saints alive on earth on that day and they will be caught up in the air to be clothed with immortality as flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal kingdom God promised to those who love and obey Him. Therefore those who are not raised on that day as in the 2nd resurrection must be those who suffer.

Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
NOT apart from The Lord Jesus.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 

[BABerean2]

None of all your wrote takes away from the two witnesses as men. Nor places their murder and brought back to life as men and caught up to heaven as the same timing of the resurrection. Nor even hints or states the 144,000 witnesses are also caught up to heaven. Nor teaches a pretribulation gathering of the saints.

ARE you a JW?

Randy

Where does the original Greek text say that they are men?


Absolutely not a JW or a pretribber.

I am a member of the one New Covenant Church of Christ, established during the first century.

.

 

[Randy777]

Where does the original Greek text say that they are men?


Absolutely not a JW or a pretribber.

I am a member of the one New Covenant Church of Christ, established during the first century.

.

Ok two people. prophets
They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

But after the three and a half days the breathb of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

 

[Randy777]

Where does the original Greek text say that they are men?


Absolutely not a JW or a pretribber.

I am a member of the one New Covenant Church of Christ, established during the first century.

.

Fair enough -good to know