Is the number of Christians who are open to universalism dependent on how it's described?

Der Alte

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It was more an invitation to a discussion than a specific question. Share your thoughts DA. I am always glad to hear them, always!, as long as they're yours and not taken from that hundred-year-old $60 book of yours.
Which 100 year old $60 book are you referring to? The only 100 year old book that I quote is the Jewish Encyclopedia and it is free online. But as for opinions they are a dime a dozen, you don't want to read mine and I don't want to read yours.
 
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Hmm

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Der Alte

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This one:
Actually, Origen is more than 1000 years old but why shouldn't I quote Origen isn't he considered the grand daddy of UR? With a hidden caveat when something Origen says contradicts UR then UR-ites don't want to hear him. Such as his definition of "aionios" in John 4.
John 4:14]
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.

Now that there is a sure 'nuff definition, the life that Jesus gives is "eternal, never perishes 2X, remains, is not taken away, and is not consumed." Origen defines "aionios with 4 adjectives, one of them twice.
 
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Hmm

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Actually, Origen is more than 1000 years old but why shouldn't I quote Origen isn't he considered the grand daddy of UR? With a hidden caveat when something Origen says contradicts UR then UR-ites don't want to hear him. Such as his definition of "aionios" in John 4.
John 4:14]​
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.

Now that there is a sure 'nuff definition, the life that Jesus gives is "eternal, never perishes 2X, remains, is not taken away, and is not consumed." Origen defines "aionios with 4 adjectives, one of them twice.

Carry on DA. I wouldn't want to change your mind for anything.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Oh, I'm sorry did I hurt your feelings?

Der Alte, you probably need to back off from accosting folks so bluntly. I can understand applying the occasional sarcasm or outright criticism, but that's about all you do.

Remember, this isn't a war. This is instead a discussion among various types of Christians, some of whom happen to disagree with you.
 
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bling

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Nothing esoteric. We can't know for sure but I would guess it's something like He created us because He wanted to enjoy a relationship with us and share His beauty with us.
God is in need of nothing (He would not be in want of anything).

Knowing of God’s Love we can believe: God’s Love would have compelled God to even sacrificially make beings whom He could gift to become like He is, in that they have this extremely powerful wonderful Godly type Love. The greatest gift He could give.

It cost God heavily to allow the few beings who will become Loving like Himself to become Loving like Himself, not only allowing satan to roam around and Christ to go to the cross, but to allow other children of His to be annihilated all to help the few fulfill their objective.
It's not a kidnapping but the word “draw” is the Greek word "helkuo" which means “to drag.” So it indicates that the one doing the dragging is imposing his will to some extent upon the ones being dragged. You wouldn't really say that a fireman is "kidnapping" the person he rescues.
God saves us not much because we want to be saved but because he wants to save us. A fireman would still rescue someone who was having suicidal thoughts at the time and might not want to be rescued. But of they ever got back into their right mind later in life they would be glad that they had been rescued. God saves us all but also brings us into our right minds so that we are glad of it.

Who in their right mind would freely choose hell? By definition, they would not be of sound mind and, like someone contemplating suicide, need help more than the freedom to carry out their desire. Unfettered free-will is not the most important thing in the world. Why don't we let children run into the road?
I am only addressing mature adults like we find in scripture; we can assume children and mentally handicapped would go on to heaven not fulfilling their earthly objective.

They are not making the choice between heaven and hell, since that is not a real choice (hell is like having a gun to your head).

To understand the free will choice everyone is making we can look to our familiar “Prodigal Son” story. We are like the older son being given a strong reason to join the Party (which represents the kingdom of God extending into heaven itself) what more can the father say, so will we join or not. Should the father “drag” the older son to the party if he does not want to go and will that make the older son happy? The problem is the father is going back to the lively party and if the older son continues to refuses to go, where can he go without the Father?
We all need to be saved surely?
I would say a new born is in a safe condition since he/she has not sinned, so not needing to be saved
I wouldn't say that but I didn't ask to be born - I find myself "thrown into existence" to use an existential term - so I certainly don't feel I deserve to be tortured forever, however naughty I've been.
Your kind of did say it by saying: “God who clearly didn't think his child deserved to starve to death”.

I have heard atheist use the excuse: “I didn't ask to be born”, which brings up the issue of free will. If you are never, ever to exist, then we all know including God what you did which is nothing, but as soon as you are to exist God at the end of time knows all the choices you made and if you went to heaven or were annihilated. To know if you went to heaven, you first have to be in the plan to exist. At the moment it is planned for your existence, everything happens for God at the end of time.

For God to create beings who will become like Himself in Love, there has to be free will, so for some it would be better if they had never been created, but God is willing to create them for the sack of those who will become like Himself.

It is good for you not to want to be tortured and/or annihilated, so that helps you with your choice to join the party, but to feel you have done nothing deserving of torture and/or annihilation means God would be forgiving you of very little and the love you obtain is very little (Luke 7).
 
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Der Alte

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Der Alte, you probably need to back off from accosting folks so bluntly. I can understand applying the occasional sarcasm or outright criticism, but that's about all you do.
Remember, this isn't a war. This is instead a discussion among various types of Christians, some of whom happen to disagree with you.
I responded to sarcasm with sarcasm. He who live in grass house should not stow thrones.
 
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public hermit

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I responded to sarcasm with sarcasm. He who live in grass house should not stow thrones.

Was "stow thrones" purposeful? If it was, brilliant! ^_^

Edit: I just saw "grass house" so I feel confident that was on purpose. Stealing this.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I responded to sarcasm with sarcasm. He who live in grass house should not stow thrones.

:rolleyes: :oops: ............:rolleyes:............................:oops:

M'boy! I had a feeling you'd say something like that.
 
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Der Alte

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:rolleyes: :oops: ............:rolleyes:............................:oops:

M'boy! I had a feeling you'd say something like that.
Auf ein mal [that is how you say once upon a time in German] a king on some remote jungle island lived in a castle made of bamboo and grass. He got tired of his old stone throne so he had a new one made. He did not want to throw the old throne away so he stowed it in the attic. After a period of time the stone throne smashed through the bamboo and grass ceiling killing the king. Moral. He who live in grass house should not stow thrones.
 
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Der Alte

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Was "stow thrones" purposeful? If it was, brilliant! ^_^

Edit: I just saw "grass house" so I feel confident that was on purpose. Stealing this.
Explained in my post #32 this thread. Just sayin'!
 
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Saint Steven

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Some Christians have a problem with God's judgment and character in the Old Testament.
Well... I thought even you would wince a bit at the idea of babies heads being smashed on the rocks. But... maybe not?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Auf ein mal [that is how you say once upon a time in German] a king on some remote jungle island lived in a castle made of bamboo and grass. He got tired of his old stone throne so he had a new one made. He did not want to throw the old throne away so he stowed it in the attic. After a period of time the stone throne smashed through the bamboo and grass ceiling killing the king. Moral. He who live in grass house should not stow thrones.

That's an amazing lesson! I haven't heard that one yet, even though I've taken a class on Asian/Eastern Philosophy.

So, are you wanting me to relay it on to @Hmm?
 
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Der Alte

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That's an amazing lesson! I haven't heard that one yet even though I've taken a class on Asian/Eastern Philosophy.
So, are you wanting me to relay it on to @Hmm?
Be my guest. He has probably seen it already.
 
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public hermit

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Well... I thought even you would wince a bit at the idea of babies heads being smashed on the rocks. But... maybe not?

That is such a horrible passage. But I'm sure someone could devise a justification for its goodness and usefulness. I'm still waiting for someone to give an uplifting sermon on Judges 19.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That is such a horrible passage. But I'm sure someone could devise a justification for its goodness and usefulness. I'm still waiting for someone to give an uplifting sermon on Judges 19.

Want me to give it? I can. But I might have to deliver my message in piecemeal fashion ....

(complimentary drum roll can be inserted at this time.... :boh:)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That is such a horrible passage. But I'm sure someone could devise a justification for its goodness and usefulness. I'm still waiting for someone to give an uplifting sermon on Judges 19.

But yeah, Judges 19 is pretty horrible. Then too, I think the whole Book of Judges is horrible, and it took me a long time (and some study) to come to realize that that is kind of the main point of this gutwrenching book. It's horrible for a reason.

This, and the realization that I shouldn't trust any woman named Delilah.

(more drum rolls ...) :boh:
 
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That is such a horrible passage. But I'm sure someone could devise a justification for its goodness and usefulness.
I suppose they would say, it is "God;s justice. Demonstrating his wrath gives him glory". (something like that)
 
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