Is the number of Christians who are open to universalism dependent on how it's described?

[JulieB67]

The possibility seems to open that the Book of Life contains everyone's names but also that it's not fixed and a name may not be included at one point but added sometime later.

The possiblility is for some to be blotted out as well.

His promise in 1 Corinthians 15:22 that "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ."

But this word "alive" in the Greek does not mean eternal life. This is what happens when someone dies in the flesh. They are made alive/quickened in the spirit.

This is the only time that the word alive is used in this manner. It's usually quicken/quickened.

The Greek word is 2227 zoopoieo- vitalize, make alive, give life, quicken. It is the same word for quickened in this verse,


I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

Quickened in this verse is the very same Greek word as alive in 1st Cor 15:22 -zoopoieo

It means after we die in the flesh we are quickened/made alive in the spirit -all people. We either then go to one side of the gulf or the other and Judgement Day does not arrive until the end.

It was that same spirit that Christ went and taught the spirits in prison. It basically means after we die in the flesh we are vitalized in the spirit.

Hate to double post but wanted to respond.

 

[Andrewn]

Repentance as we know is a change of heart/mind. I feel like that ultimately takes away from Christ's sacrifice if LOF could do that job.

Last night, I watched an excellent movie on Netflix called The Captive. It is about child inappropriate contentography and abuse. Evil is real and is profoundly pernicious. I don't need to describe all the atrocities in the world that we are all aware of. Can these souls, hearts, and minds truly repent in the LOF? Obviously, I don't know. But I tend to doubt it. This extreme evil needs to be completely wiped out.

But what about the spirit? What is the spirit? I don't think in the Bible the spirit is the same thing as the soul. Are you familiar with Molinism?

Molinism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The ancient view of Luis de Molina (1535 – 1600) brings to mind some forms of the Multiverse theory. Is it possible that the spirits of even evil people could behave differently in a different universe?

It probably sounds far-fetched to most people who've never heard of the scientific theory. But we should not put a limit on what God has done to save us and what He can do to save people.

 

[Saint Steven]

It probably sounds far-fetched to most people who've never heard of the scientific theory. But we should not put a limit on what God has done to save us and what He can do to save people.

If this universe only required a week of work... Imagine what God could do in a year. - LOL
"To infinity and beyond!" - Buzz Lightyear

 

[JulieB67]

Are you familiar with Molinism?

No, I'll have to check it out.

But we should not put a limit on what God has done to save us and what He can do to save people.

I'm not trying to do that. I basically just try to go with the scriptures. Perishing, being turned to ashes and being called the second death just tells me personally the LOF is it. If someone hasn't repented then and turned to Christ at some point, I believe that's final.

In the end, I just believe that if certain ones don't want to spend an eternity with our Father he will certainly grant that. Do I believe he will burn them forever? No. I just think they will ultimately be blotted out.

Again, we have to remember that God is long suffering, not willing anyone should perish but that they would come to repentance.
If that is the ultimate reason he is long suffering -he's waiting on as many people to repent- how does that play into the LOF if all he has to do is throw them in there? He could stop his suffering and the type you described in your post as well. (pure evil for sure) But he's waiting on people themselves to repent. If they don't they will perish. That verse tells us so.

No offense but I try and not go beyond the scriptures. If anyone else wants to that's fine. But for me personally I believe Christ when he calls the LOF the second death. The first is physical, the second is the soul. As for the spirit living on, well then it wouldn't be called death at all. But Christ specifically calls it the second death.

 

[Andrewn]

I basically just try to go with the scriptures. Perishing, being turned to ashes and being called the second death just tells me personally the LOF is it. If someone hasn't repented then and turned to Christ at some point, I believe that's final.

You believe the whole person is annihilated: body, soul, and spirit. I think eternity is more complicated and dynamic than this. But you may be right. It sounds more biblical than ECT anyhow.

But for me personally I believe Christ when he calls the LOF the second death. The first is physical, the second is the soul. As for the spirit living on, well then it wouldn't be called death at all. But Christ specifically calls it the second death.

I think the first death is also spiritual. But this is a completely different issue.

Have a happy New Year.

 

[JulieB67]

It sounds more biblical than ECT anyhow.

I don't see that as well. We are told he's long suffering not willing anyone should perish so why would anyone think his nature would be to burn someone for an eternity? I hate the fact that I was indocrinated with that belief for so long. Especially when it never made sense to me.

Have a happy New Year.

You as well!

 

[Der Alte]

I don't see that as well. We are told he's long suffering not willing anyone should perish so why would anyone think his nature would be to burn someone for an eternity? I hate the fact that I was indocrinated with that belief for so long. Especially when it never made sense to me.
You as well!

Most unfortunate that some folks will not accept the words of Jesus, Himself.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
= = =
Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

 

[JulieB67]

Most unfortunate that some folks will not accept the words of Jesus, Himself.

You certainly don't. You don't believe Jesus when he calls it the second death. You don't believe he means death.

 

[Der Alte]

You certainly don't. You don't believe Jesus when he calls it the second death. You don't believe he means death.

Incorrect. Unlike others I accept ALL the words of Jesus. I don't pick and choose some vss. which support some denominational assumptions/presuppositions. I'm fairly sure that includes you. Are you familiar with

Revelation 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

I think we have had this discussion before. IIRC you had some vague argument why vs. 4 does not really mean "no more death." But that is exactly how John's immediate audience, the 7 Asian cities would have understood it, exactly as written. They didn't have years of indoctrination in some NT denomination.
Then the end.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Ten more vss. "The End" no more death, no more salvation, only, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."

 

[JulieB67]

Incorrect. Unlike others I accept ALL the words of Jesus. I don't pick and choose some vss.

You do exactly that. Like I said, you don't believe Christ's when he calls the LOF the second death. You don't believe he means death. If there was anyone that picks out a few verses here and there instead of the entire bible which is what we should be doing, it's you.

I think we have had this discussion before. IIRC you had some vague argument why vs. 4 does not really mean "no more death.

No, I think it means exactly that. If Christ calls the LOF at Judgement Day the second death. I believe that's it. Death means to die. Anyone that does not overcome will suffer the second death. Body and soul. Again, you are the one that doesn't believe Christ's own words. You don't believe he means death.

(6) And he said unto me, It is done.

You refuse to believe these words as well. You say you believe all of Christ's words but if Christ states it is done why would you restart things? He states in verse 4 very specifically that the former things are passed away. He states I make all things new and that "it is done". If you don't understand that context then you're not going to understand it when he is just reiterating what "will" happen to those that overcome and those who don't in verses 7 and 8. That happens at Judgement Day.

And we know later John is taken to what new Jersalem will be like.

 

[Hmm]

I never heard of it as a fringe at all. It is heretical and false.

I feel sorry you've had such a restricted Christian environment then. I'm sure CF will help compensate for that if you keep engaging.