Is the number of Christians who are open to universalism dependent on how it's described?

Hmm

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People often say that Christian universalism is a fringe viewpoint that is dismissed as heretical by most Christians. But how true is that? Most people don't know what universalism actually is as was the case with me until I started reading some of the universalist threads here on CF a year or so ago. Rather than rejecting universalism, I think many are in the open/hopeful category but to help them see that, they need to have a conversation or read a thread about what universalism actually means.

The way something is described can affect the answers people give. If I put a poll on this thread with the question 'Do you believe in universalism", most responses would be No. But I think this is because most people think universalism is the same as relativism or Unitarian Universalism and that Jesus is not necessary for salvation.

I used to think that it was just relativism - the idea that all points of view are equally valid - until I learnt that universalism means that Jesus will actually "draw all people" to Himself and that "every knee will bow", and so everyone is saved through Jesus. I think many people would be open to that. Even people who are tied into the more mainstream view of Eternal Conscious Torment don't necessarily want that to be true. They just believe that that's how it works. Sadly, I've known people who abandoned Christianity because of the concept of ECT who may not have done if they had heard of an alternative view.

Of course, there will always be some people who will oppose the idea of universal salvation no matter what but I think generally people are pretty open to the idea when it's explained.

To illustrate my point, if put a poll on this thread that asked "Might you be in favour of universalism" most answers would almost certainly be No, but if it was possible to put a series of questions on the poll, the answer may be different:

Poll 1.

Are you worried about people going to hell?
Ans: Yes

Do you think the Christian message of responsibility and repentance is being softened to make it more appealing to the general population?
Ans: Yes

Are you worried that the objective truth of Christianity is being lost in our post-truth society?
Ans: Yes

Do you think that universalism contributes to this relativism?
Ans: Yes

Might you be in favour of the idea of universal salvation?
Ans: No

Poll 2.

Are you worried about people going to hell?
Ans: Yes

Do you believe that we are all God's children and are loved by Him more than we can ever comprehend?
Ans: Yes

Do you believe that God has the power and will to achieve His purposes?
Ans: Yes

Do you believe that God is the Good Shepherd who searches for every lost sheep until it is found?
Ans: Yes

Might you be in favour of the idea of universal salvation?
Ans: Yes
 

Hmm

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Universalism tends to be packaged as "people are all already saved" where Ultimate reconciliation is what is meant. Wording is important.

I agree with your second sentence but can't relate it to your first. Your description of the "package" of univeralism is idiosyncratic and not the standard meaning. Your first sentence makes no sense and I have no idea of what you are trying to say, sorry.

If you know what you are trying to say, perhaps you can explain it to me as if I am five years old? If you can't, ah well.
 
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If they can describe it in such a way that the truth of God's Word is blinded from the eye of the believer, sure.

It's nice to encounter someone who is able to give an account for their faith, as we are called to do, rather than just dismiss anyone with a different view as "blind".

Oh, wait... does "the truth of God's Word is blinded from the eye of the believer" actually make sense? I don't see it but, again, if what you've just said makes sense to you can you explain it to me as if I was five years old?

And if, on reflection, what you've just said doesn't make sense to you, what is that saying to you?
 
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bling

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People often say that Christian universalism is a fringe viewpoint that is dismissed as heretical by most Christians. But how true is that? Most people don't know what universalism actually is as was the case with me until I started reading some of the universalist threads here on CF a year or so ago. Rather than rejecting universalism, I think many are in the open/hopeful category but to help them see that, they need to have a conversation or read a thread about what universalism actually means.

The way something is described can affect the answers people give. If I put a poll on this thread with the question 'Do you believe in universalism", most responses would be No. But I think this is because most people think universalism is the same as relativism or Unitarian Universalism and that Jesus is not necessary for salvation.

I used to think that it was just relativism - the idea that all points of view are equally valid - until I learnt that universalism means that Jesus will actually "draw all people" to Himself and that "every knee will bow", and so everyone is saved through Jesus. I think many people would be open to that. Even people who are tied into the more mainstream view of Eternal Conscious Torment don't necessarily want that to be true. They just believe that that's how it works. Sadly, I've known people who abandoned Christianity because of the concept of ECT who may not have done if they had heard of an alternative view.

Of course, there will always be some people who will oppose the idea of universal salvation no matter what but I think generally people are pretty open to the idea when it's explained.

To illustrate my point, if put a poll on this thread that asked "Might you be in favour of universalism" most answers would almost certainly be No, but if it was possible to put a series of questions on the poll, the answer may be different:

Poll 1.

Are you worried about people going to hell?
Ans: Yes

Do you think the Christian message of responsibility and repentance is being softened to make it more appealing to the general population?
Ans: Yes

Are you worried that the objective truth of Christianity is being lost in our post-truth society?
Ans: Yes

Do you think that universalism contributes to this relativism?
Ans: Yes

Might you be in favour of the idea of universal salvation?
Ans: No

Poll 2.

Are you worried about people going to hell?
Ans: Yes

Do you believe that we are all God's children and are loved by Him more than we can ever comprehend?
Ans: Yes

Do you believe that God has the power and will to achieve His purposes?
Ans: Yes

Do you believe that God is the Good Shepherd who searches for every lost sheep until it is found?
Ans: Yes

Might you be in favour of the idea of universal salvation?
Ans: Yes
With the question: Do you believe that God has the power and will to achieve His purposes?

What assumptions are you making about “God’s will”?

It was certainly God’s will to place each individual here on this messed up world for a limited amount of time, but what is God’s reason (will/desire) for doing such a thing?

I see God’s reason/will: To allow at least some people to fulfill a wonderful earthly objective with all the help God can provide those willing individuals. It is not God’s will to overpower humans into doing that which they freely oppose (make them robots/take away their free will) and have the ability to oppose (there is no gun to their head).

There is no reason for humans to spend time on a messed-up earth if God is just going to bring everyone to heaven in the end.

With the question: Do you believe that God is the Good Shepherd who searches for every lost sheep until it is found? You are taking this parable out of context (Luke 15) because this is specifically addressing sheep who do not know the way home, while the prodigal son parable has a lost child who knows his way home and must of the child’s own free will choose to turn to the father. If the child wanted to be macho take the punishment, he fully deserves he could have stayed and starved to death in the pigsty.
 
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People often say that Christian universalism is a fringe viewpoint that is dismissed as heretical by most Christians. But how true is that? Most people don't know what universalism actually is as was the case with me until I started reading some of the universalist threads here on CF a year or so ago. Rather than rejecting universalism, I think many are in the open/hopeful category but to help them see that, they need to have a conversation or read a thread about what universalism actually means.

The way something is described can affect the answers people give. If I put a poll on this thread with the question 'Do you believe in universalism", most responses would be No. But I think this is because most people think universalism is the same as relativism or Unitarian Universalism and that Jesus is not necessary for salvation.

I used to think that it was just relativism - the idea that all points of view are equally valid - until I learnt that universalism means that Jesus will actually "draw all people" to Himself and that "every knee will bow", and so everyone is saved through Jesus. I think many people would be open to that. Even people who are tied into the more mainstream view of Eternal Conscious Torment don't necessarily want that to be true. They just believe that that's how it works. Sadly, I've known people who abandoned Christianity because of the concept of ECT who may not have done if they had heard of an alternative view.

Of course, there will always be some people who will oppose the idea of universal salvation no matter what but I think generally people are pretty open to the idea when it's explained.

To illustrate my point, if put a poll on this thread that asked "Might you be in favour of universalism" most answers would almost certainly be No, but if it was possible to put a series of questions on the poll, the answer may be different:

Poll 1.

Are you worried about people going to hell?
Ans: Yes

Do you think the Christian message of responsibility and repentance is being softened to make it more appealing to the general population?
Ans: Yes

Are you worried that the objective truth of Christianity is being lost in our post-truth society?
Ans: Yes

Do you think that universalism contributes to this relativism?
Ans: Yes

Might you be in favour of the idea of universal salvation?
Ans: No

Poll 2.

Are you worried about people going to hell?
Ans: Yes

Do you believe that we are all God's children and are loved by Him more than we can ever comprehend?
Ans: Yes

Do you believe that God has the power and will to achieve His purposes?
Ans: Yes

Do you believe that God is the Good Shepherd who searches for every lost sheep until it is found?
Ans: Yes

Might you be in favour of the idea of universal salvation?
Ans: Yes
Some Christians have a problem with God's judgment and character in the Old Testament. When Jesus Christ of Nazareth appeared He brought with Him the Good News establishing , in a sense, a percieved new type of God. One less about condemnation and wrath and more about love and forgiveness.
Where Universalists are mistaken is God has not changed. He was just as loving in the OT as He is wrathful in the NT. There are still consequences for those who reject Him. There is really no getting around that even with scriptural sophistry and wishful thinking.
Blessings.
 
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Jeff Saunders
Jeff Saunders
Most of the UR people I listen to do not believe that the people who reject Jesus in this life do not escape the consequences of their actions, they go to the lake of fire and they will pay dearly. All who reject Jesus’s sin payment will pay for what they did.
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With the question: Do you believe that God has the power and will to achieve His purposes?

What assumptions are you making about “God’s will”?
I'm not making assumptions. I'm just looking at what scripture says about God's will such as the following:


John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Matthew 17:11
He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.

Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Luke 2:10
And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.


2 Samuel 14:14
We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Lamentations 3:31-33
For the Lord will not cast off forever, but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not afflict from his heart or grieve the children of men.

etc. etc. etc.

Why do you put "God's will" in quotes btw? Do you not believe He has a will? Do you think He doesn't will that all are saved?


With the question: Do you believe that God is the Good Shepherd who searches for every lost sheep until it is found? You are taking this parable out of context (Luke 15) because this is specifically addressing sheep who do not know the way home, while the prodigal son parable has a lost child who knows his way home and must of the child’s own free will choose to turn to the father. If the child wanted to be macho take the punishment, he fully deserves he could have stayed and starved to death in the pigsty.

The prodigal's father is an image of God who clearly didn't think his child deserved to starve to death even though you may think he did. That's why God is God and we are human I guess. Grace is wildly generous to the point of irrationality to us. It is simply given to us.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I agree with your second sentence but can't relate it to your first. Your description of the "package" of univeralism is idiosyncratic and not the standard meaning. Your first sentence makes no sense and I have no idea of what you are trying to say, sorry.

If you know what you are trying to say, perhaps you can explain it to me as if I am five years old? If you can't, ah well.
Universalism, meaning everyone, is already saved.

Ultimate Reconciliation, meaning same script as eternal torment ... minus the eternal part, there's still torment.
 
Jeff Saunders
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I think that the idea that when Jesus said he was the savior of the world, that it was a proclamation and it is but the process has taken thousands of years and is not done even now , but someday it will be done.
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Hmm

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Universalism, meaning everyone, is already saved.

Ultimate Reconciliation, meaning same script as eternal torment ... minus the eternal part, there's still torment.

Universalism doesn't say we are already saved. Why do you think it does?

I have no idea what your second sentence is saying.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Universalism doesn't say we are already saved. Why do you think it does?

I have no idea what your second sentence is saying.
There is a class of universalist teachings that teach that, I was under the impression that the term Universalism referred to beliefs that state salvation is already applied to everyone.

I just use the words I use. Sorry about that.
 
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There is a class of universalist teachings that teach that, I was under the impression that the term Universalism referred to beliefs that state salvation is already applied to everyone.

And what class of universalism is this? If you are unable to say then perhaps consider that your impression is incorrect.

I just use the words I use. Sorry about that.

I only brought it up because you gave me this little homily earlier:

Wording is important.

If you're going to lecture people, you must set a good example yourself :)
 
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Gregory Thompson

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And what class of universalism is this? If you are unable to say then perhaps consider that your impression is incorrect.



I only brought it up because you gave me this little homily earlier:



If you're going to lecture people, you must set a good example yourself :)
It sounds like you're playing dumb though, so no need to put in extra effort when that happens.
 
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It sounds like you're playing dumb though, so no need to put in extra effort when that happens.

Oh dear. I take that as a gracious acknowledgment that there is no "class of universalism" that says "salvation is already applied to everyone" as you previously maintained :sigh:
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Oh dear. I take that as a gracious acknowledgment that there is no "class of universalism" that says "salvation is already applied to everyone" as you previously maintained. So that's something eh?
You're talking funny today. Maybe we can try again tomorrow.
 
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I'm not making assumptions. I'm just looking at what scripture says about God's will such as the following:


John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Matthew 17:11
He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.

Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Luke 2:10
And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.


2 Samuel 14:14
We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Lamentations 3:31-33
For the Lord will not cast off forever, but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not afflict from his heart or grieve the children of men.

etc. etc. etc.

Why do you put "God's will" in quotes btw? Do you not believe He has a will? Do you think He doesn't will that all are saved?
I was really referring to “God’s will to achieve His purpose” which is in quotes because I am quoting you.

Before we get into a lengthy discussion of the word “will” we need to establish what you mean by “God’s purpose”.

In one respect God’s will is what happens, God either directly caused it to happen or it was God’s will to allow it to happen. In another respect there is God’s desire, like it was not God’s desire for Eve or Adam to sin, but God also allowed them to sin.

Just like the in the banquet parables everyone who came to the banquet was selected to be there, since they were all personally invited, but not everyone went to the banquet.

The “draw” of man is the wonderful invitation and not a kidnapping. The invitation is good news to everyone, but some will still refuse.

You are placing everything on God’s will being to save everyone, but God’s will seems to be to provide salvation to all who need to be saved (this is not everyone, since the person must be mature enough to know they are being rebelliously disobedient to the Creator to be lost).

God does desire everyone to be saved, but He is not going to force His Love on a person (holding the shotgun at a shotgun wedding), since that is not loving o His part nor would the Love they received be Godly type Love.
The prodigal's father is an image of God who clearly didn't think his child deserved to starve to death even though you may think he did. That's why God is God and we are human I guess. Grace is wildly generous to the point of irrationality to us. It is simply given to us.
So, you think you deserve eternal life with God in heaven by God’s definition of deserve?

To the contrast: the father did fully know the young son fully deserved to starve to death in the pigsty for his choices. The father also had forgiven the son, but the son had never of his own free will humbly accepted that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity until he showed that acceptance and humility in returning and speaking.

God’s forgiveness is huge and can result in us obtaining a huge Godly type Love (Luke 7, If you are forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt you will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love), but repeatedly refusing that forgiveness to the point of never free willingly accepting that forgiveness, results in not going to heave and the second death.
 
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Before we get into a lengthy discussion of the word “will” we need to establish what you mean by “God’s purpose”.

Nothing esoteric. We can't know for sure but I would guess it's something like He created us because He wanted to enjoy a relationship with us and share His beauty with us.

The “draw” of man is the wonderful invitation and not a kidnapping. The invitation is good news to everyone, but some will still refuse.

It's not a kidnapping but the word “draw” is the Greek word "helkuo" which means “to drag.” So it indicates that the one doing the dragging is imposing his will to some extent upon the ones being dragged. You wouldn't really say that a fireman is "kidnapping" the person he rescues.

God saves us not much because we want to be saved but because he wants to save us. A fireman would still rescue someone who was having suicidal thoughts at the time and might not want to be rescued. But of they ever got back into their right mind later in life they would be glad that they had been rescued. God saves us all but also brings us into our right minds so that we are glad of it.

Who in their right mind would freely choose hell? By definition, they would not be of sound mind and, like someone contemplating suicide, need help more than the freedom to carry out their desire. Unfettered free-will is not the most important thing in the world. Why don't we let children run into the road?


You are placing everything on God’s will being to save everyone, but God’s will seems to be to provide salvation to all who need to be saved (this is not everyone, since the person must be mature enough to know they are being rebelliously disobedient to the Creator to be lost).

We all need to be saved surely?

God does desire everyone to be saved, but He is not going to force His Love on a person (holding the shotgun at a shotgun wedding), since that is not loving o His part nor would the Love they received be Godly type Love.

I think I've already addressed this above.

So, you think you deserve eternal life with God in heaven by God’s definition of deserve?

I wouldn't say that but I didn't ask to be born - I find myself "thrown into existence" to use an existential term - so I certainly don't feel I deserve to be tortured forever, however naughty I've been.
 
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Not sure how anyone in this forum could answer the OP question.

It was more an invitation to a discussion than a specific question. Share your thoughts DA. I am always glad to hear them, always!, as long as they're yours and not taken from that hundred-year-old $60 book of yours.
 
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