Is the Great Tribulation impending ?

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Luke17:37]

I agree with you as well, but in part. I was recently reminded that the bible specifically mentions the Nephilum were in the days of Noah. I'm beginning to do research to find out if that scripture meant the reference of Noah and Lot were symbolic or literal when it comes to our time. That will depend on whether or not I fully believe all things that were going on in Noah and Lot's time are also present in our current time.

In the days of Noah and Lot, the wicked were surprised by God's judgment (He destroyed them). So, also, the wicked will be surprised by God's judgment when He returns, and He will destroy them (Revelation 19:21). The taken (Luke 17, Matthew 24) are the wicked who are surprised by God's judgment and are slain (Zechariah 14:12-15, Revelation 19:21). Their bodies will become food for vultures (Luke 17:37, Matthew 24:28, Revelation 19:21). In contrast, the return of Christ will not take faithful Christians by surprise (1 Thessalonians 5:4). This is the clear context of Jesus' words. It is not that everything about Noah's/Lot's time is the same as the return of Christ.

 

[Luke17:37]

The seven bowls full are not part of the great tribulation.
The rapture happens before any of them get poured out, as they are full of the wrath of
God. They will fall upon the wicked. The saints in their new clothes will return out of heaven
before the vials have ended. They come out of heaven as armies with Him. At this time, Jesus
Christ will wear many crowns, unlike the time of Rev. 14 when He reaps the earth-and wears one crown.

I don't agree. People always quote the "won't suffer wrath" verse to say Christians won't be raptured before this part of the Tribulation, but the context is that we inherit salvation as opposed to a place in the Lake of Fire. God does have a precedent for His people hiding behind closed doors in the midst of destruction (see Genesis 7, Exodus 12, and the prophetic Isaiah 26:20-21). God's Word is clear that some Christians will survive to the coming of the Lord (Matthew 24:22, 1 Thessalonians 4:17). In Revelation, God makes provision for 144,000 Jewish believers in Jesus to be protected in some way from the last plagues which will come upon the earth (Revelation 7:1-8) in the trumpets and bowls.

Consider also the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. Both the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest/end of the age. First the wicked are destroyed, then the righteous are gathered. Thus, there can be no pre-Tribulation or mid-Tribulation rapture.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Dave Watchman]

I don't agree. People always quote the "won't suffer wrath" verse to say Christians won't be raptured before this part of the Tribulation, but the context is that we inherit salvation as opposed to a place in the Lake of Fire. God does have a precedent for His people hiding behind closed doors in the midst of destruction (see Genesis 7, Exodus 12, and the prophetic Isaiah 26:20-21). God's Word is clear that some Christians will survive to the coming of the Lord (Matthew 24:22, 1 Thessalonians 4:17). In Revelation, God makes provision for 144,000 Jewish believers in Jesus to be protected in some way from the last plagues which will come upon the earth (Revelation 7:1-8) in the trumpets and bowls.

Consider also the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. Both the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest/end of the age. First the wicked are destroyed, then the righteous are gathered. Thus, there can be no pre-Tribulation or mid-Tribulation rapture.

I don't agree. The seven bowls begin after the seventh trumpet. In the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel:
the mystery of God will be fulfilled <---RAPTURE---> and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints.

And then the time comes for destroying the destroyers of the earth with the seven bowls. Just like in the days of Noah, man and beast will be wiped from the face of the earth, but this time "many" will watch from the air on the Day of Visitation.

"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached to you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​

The "times of restitution of all things" will not happen until after the thousand years of Revelation 20 are finished and after the final judgment.

"And he that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new."​

Isn't "Behold, I make all things new" the equivalent to: "the restitution of all things". So then Jesus can't come to live on earth during His next trip which will only be a Day of Visitation like lightning flashing from the east and to the west to gather us from the air and take us back to His Father's House with many rooms.

"In my Father’s house are many rooms.
If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Luke17:37]

Salvation comes for the church long before the time of the lake of fire scenes. We are not
appointed unto wrath but salvation. This means we are not appointed to God's full measure
wrath of the seven vials. Rev. 15 shows that only seven plagues must end before men
can enter into the temple of God. This is when John actually viewed the events of the
7 trumpets. These trumpet plagues come in less than full measure - such as a third. The OT shows that would God would not punish Israel but by measure. His wrath is reserved for the
wicked.

Rev. 7 is when the great tribulation was seen taking place.
The 7th seal was not yet opened, and men were already seen by John in the temple
in heaven. They could not enter unless the seven trumpet plagues had ended.

Rev. 15:1 has - seven angels -that within this chapter get noted later as -the seven angels.
Rev. 8:2 also mentions - the seven angels. They do their chapter 15 role playing first.
Then the same smoke time occurs. Rev. 8 tells how it was done. Rev. 15 tells why it was done. Rev. 8 is only the story of the trumpet scenes already seen by John back in chapter 7.
These are those which came out of great tribulation. How did those in white robes come out
of great tribulation - the time of the beast of Rev. 13's added mouth that speaks great things? It is because the trib unfolded in Rev. 7. This is where chapters 12,13, 15, and 14
were seen by John. The seven angels are the sealing set of we angels in chapter 7. They
hand off their trumpet plagues to the set of four angels. to whom it was given to hurt
given - handed off - delivered
The four angels will cause the plagues as the seven sealed people angels return to heaven
and sound the seven trumpets.

Did you read Matthew 13?

Again, I don't agree.

The multitude in heaven from Chapter 7 are clothed in white robes. These are "they who came out of the Tribulation." One, they had to have been in it if they came out of it. In Revelation 6, it is the martyrs (seal 5) who get these white robes and are told to wait until the rest of their brothers and sisters appointed to martyrdom join them. I believe the clear context of Scripture is that the great multitude are not the raptured but the martyrs of the Tribulation. And Jesus wipes away their tears.

I don't love the idea of being martyred either, but I want to know and believe the truth regardless of whether I like it. I'm as prepared as I can be for the idea.

I am 100% convinced that Scripture teaches consistently a post-tribulation resurrection/gathering of the Church. I honestly don't have a teeny bit of hope that I, a Gentile woman, has any hope of surviving the Tribulation unless I die before it starts, and likewise I have 0% hope of a pre or mid-Tribulation rapture.

 

[Luke17:37]

I don't agree. The seven bowls begin after the seventh trumpet. In the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel:
the mystery of God will be fulfilled <---RAPTURE---> and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints.

And then the time comes for destroying the destroyers of the earth with the seven bowls. Just like in the days of Noah, man and beast will be wiped from the face of the earth, but this time "many" will watch from the air on the Day of Visitation.

"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached to you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​

The "times of restitution of all things" will not happen until after the thousand years of Revelation 20 are finished and after the final judgment.

"And he that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new."​

Isn't "Behold, I make all things new" the equivalent to: "the restitution of all things". So then Jesus can't come to live on earth during His next trip which will only be a Day of Visitation like lightning flashing from the east and to the west to gather us from the air and take us back to His Father's House with many rooms.

"In my Father’s house are many rooms.
If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Peaceful Sabbath.

The seven bowls and seven trumpets appear to be simultaneous to each other and not consecutive. Compare them side by side... especially the plagues of the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl. They are the same plagues. Also, they are the end. I can see a definite likely relationship between each of the trumpets and bowls. I think the bowls focus on the kingdom of the beast and trumpets are universal.

Matthew 24:27-28
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

When Jesus returns, everyone will see and people will die (Zechariah 14:12) and become food for vultures (Revelation 19:21).

Matthew 24:30-31
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (This is after the Tribulation, btw. See
Matthew 24:29-30 "29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven..."

Jesus' parable of the wheat and the tares (and the parable of the dragnet) in Matthew 13 should put the whole Pre-Tribulation/Mid-Tribulation theories to bed, because the destruction of the wicked clearly precedes the gathering of the righteous.

I have nothing to lose, but you have a lot to lose by putting your faith in "I won't be here." I entreat you, don't listen to the teachers who prophecy things you want to hear. Maybe God will appoint you to die prior to the Tribulation, but you can't count on it.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Salvation comes for the church long before the time of the lake of fire scenes. We are not
appointed unto wrath but salvation. This means we are not appointed to God's full measure
wrath of the seven vials.

New International Version
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

English Standard Version
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Berean Study Bible
For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

King James Bible
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,​

The way that I know Paul is not talking about the great tribulation or the seven vials is that the wrath mentioned here is tied to salvation. This is the ultimate salvation when the wicked are burnt up by the wrath of God on the final judgment day after the thousand years are finished. This is not talking about being saved during the tribulation. We are not brought into this judgment. God has not destined us for this wrath as we have passed from death into life having obtained salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev. 15 shows that only seven plagues must end before men
can enter into the temple of God.

I can partially agree with you. But I think that the seven last plaques will occur very fast over a matter of days and we will observe them from the air. We won't be raptured and then immediately enter into the temple of God.

When Jesus destroys the destroyers of the earth at the seventh trumpet, how do you think He accomplishes this? How did the destroyers destroy the earth? Have you ever considered the impact of turning all of the H2O into blood on a global scale? I doubt that this condition could be dragged out for more than a matter of days and have flesh still be saved alive. No matter how deep of a hole they dug.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Luke17:37]

New International Version
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

English Standard Version
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Berean Study Bible
For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

King James Bible
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,​

The way that I know Paul is not talking about the great tribulation or the seven vials is that the wrath mentioned here is tied to salvation. This is the ultimate salvation when the wicked are burnt up by the wrath of God on the final judgment day after the thousand years are finished. This is not talking about being saved during the tribulation. We are not brought into this judgment. God has not destined us for this wrath as we have passed from death into life having obtained salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.



I can partially agree with you. But I think that the seven last plaques will occur very fast over a matter of days and we will observe them from the air. We won't be raptured and then immediately enter into the temple of God.

When Jesus destroys the destroyers of the earth at the seventh trumpet, how do you think He accomplishes this? How did the destroyers destroy the earth? Have you ever considered the impact of turning all of the H2O into blood on a global scale? I doubt that this condition could be dragged out for more than a matter of days and have flesh still be saved alive. No matter how deep of a hole they dug.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Jesus came and died to save the Church from wrath - our destiny is Heaven in the presence of the Lord, not eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire. That verse doesn't say that Christians can't live in the Great Tribulation. You are inferring what it doesn't clearly say. It's simply a guess. You have a lot riding on a guess.

The LORD will apply a seal to 144,000 Jewish believers in Jesus so that they can withstand the last plagues. It's possible that some may come to Christ besides them (such as Jewish people) if they haven't already taken the mark of the beast, whatever that is. God makes provision for some Christians so they can survive. But Scripture in Revelation is clear to me that most Christians will be slain during the Tribulation. It is our blood that He will come back to avenge.

It doesn't sound like you and I can possibly agree. I don't have time to write you back anymore. Happy Sabbath.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[stephen583]

"Chinese Foreign Minister "Wang Yi" warns U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry the deployment of the Terminal High Altitude Area Missile Defense (THAD) System in South Korea represents a "serious threat" to China's "security interests" in the region. (MSNBC, Associated Press, February 13, 2016).

Go figure. How does defending South Korea with a missile defense system "threaten" China's security interests ???

What's that put us at now John, Five or Six ?! I lose count.

 

[Dave Watchman]

The seven bowls and seven trumpets appear to be simultaneous to each other and not consecutive. Compare them side by side... especially the plagues of the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl. They are the same plagues.

"Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.​

Seven LAST plagues seems to hint at there being seven FIRST plagues. But I wouldn't want to risk turning this into a dogma of some kind.

Matthew 24:30-31
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you saw "the sign of the Son of Man" appearing in the sky would you mourn? I would only mourn if I was one of the wicked. When He sends His angels we are already in the air, they are gathering us from the stratosphere while "all the tribes of the earth" are mourning.

We won't mourn because we won't be included with "all the tribes of the earth" anymore. A lot can transpire in the twinkling of an eye.

It doesn't sound like you and I can possibly agree. I don't have time to write you back anymore. Happy Sabbath.

No problems Luke and Shabbat Shalom to you as well.

The colorful clouds near the top of this picture are Polar Stratospheric Clouds (PSCs). The PSCs are flying high above the darker cirrus clouds at the bottom of the picture. Image courtesy of NASA (Paul Newman, GSFC).

 

[Dave Watchman]

Hi Dave Watchman,
I'm reading your reply and I wonder if you think God moved Judea to the USA.
When ye see the abomination of desolation- the one foretold by Daniel-we are to read it,
then flee Judea.

That IS funny, are you making fun of me vinsight?

Not then flee Judea.

Those who are IN Judea flee into the mountains.

My version of Matthew is different but I think it's the Q source for the book because it's the only one with the correct and complete genealogy.


THOSE WHO ARE IN Judea:

The Hebraic du Tillet version of Matthew reads like this:

24:16 "then let them which be in Judah flee unto the mountains"

Think of "Judah" as in "Lion of the tribe of".

Those who are in Jesus:

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless
you abide in me.
I am the vine;
you are the branches.
Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you,
that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me,
may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me
may be in them, and I in them.”

From another member:

"Is it possible that the lion represents the Lion of the tribe of Judah, who is Christ, who now lives in me as the temple of God?"
(end quote)​

"then let them which be in Judah flee unto the mountains"

In Judah?

The Lion of the tribe of Judah?,

"I am in the Father and the Father is in me"

"I am in my Father, and you IN me, and I IN you"

them which be IN Judah
flee unto the mountains

them which be IN Jesus

--> may your flight not be in winter
or on a Sabbath.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[stephen583]

Vladimir Putin is NOT the antichrist.

There are a number of descriptions of the Antichrist figure called the "Abomination of Desolation" found in the Book of Daniel, which is exactly where the prophecy of Matthew 24:15 tells you to look for them. They appear to fit Vladimir Putin like a glove. It says he will be a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences, (Daniel 8:23). I'd say invading the Crimea in 2014, supporting a civil war in Ukraine in 2015, threatening the Baltic w/ invasion, moving tens of thousands of Russian troops toward the Ukrainian border, threatening to use nuclear weapons against NATO if they intervene in the Ukraine (July 2016 A.P. News), and going into Syria and Iraq to fight ISIS and the anti-Assad forces simultaneously (Sept. 2015), attacking U.S. military advisers on the ground in Syria that were supporting the anti-Assad forces (Oct. 12, 2015), and sending a Russian heavy bomber a mile and a half into Turkish airspace (Jan. 2016 CNN News), does sort'a strike me as "fierce". Especially considering, except for the Crimea invasion of 2014, all these events took place in just five months.

When Vladimir Putin began his career with the K.G.B. he was stationed first in Dresden, East Germany where he worked as a K.G.B "case officer" responsible for recruiting and developing counter-intelligence "human assets" through blackmail, threats and coercion. In other words, as part of his duties he developed a pretty good working knowledge of how to use "dark sentences" to manipulate the unwilling into doing the K.G.B's bidding.

The description goes on to say, "He will become strong with a small people", (Daniel 11:23). We already covered the beginning of his career with the K.G.B, (a relatively exclusive and small, but politically strong intelligence community within the Soviet government). The K.G.B was described as one of the three pillars of the Soviet government. General Secretary Andropov and Michael Gorbachev were both ex-K.G.B.

The same verse says, "After an alliance is made with him, he will practice deception, and he will go up and gain power", (Dan. 11:23). Vladimir Putin's first act as president of Russian, was to pardon his predecessor, Boris Yeltsin for any crimes committed while he was president, and Yeltsin named Putin beforehand as his choice for his successor.

According to a 2012 U.S. State Department report on Russian Human Rights Violations, Vladimir Putin stands accused of illegally rigging election results to extend his term as president, using Federal Russian officers to systematically torture and murder political dissidents and opposition members, and outlawing any non-govt. (N.G.O) organizations in Russia supported by Western money, virtually setting up a Stalinist dictatorship in Russia. By the way, you can "google" that State Department report, it is available "on-line". I think that pretty much takes care of the "deception" and "gaining power" part of the prophecy nicely, don't you ?!

Another passage says, "He will exalt himself above everything, (Daniel 11:36). This goes to the very heart of Vladimir Putin's character and his twisted personality. He is a classic pathological case of "megalomania" (thinks he's God), and a "narcissist" (simply defined as self love). He has nurtured a "cult of personality" about himself in Russia. Putin portrays himself as an expert Judo Martial artist, athlete, successful entrepreneur, (has his own brand of caviar and vodka), businessman, entertainer (he writes and performs his own music), sportsman, conservationist, unparalleled international statesman and military hero, (Putin is a military pilot and has appeared publicly in photos wearing Spetsnaz Russian Special Force's uniforms). If you think I'm exaggerating about this guys "megalomania and narcissism", that is also described on-line on various Putin websites.


Vladimir Putin is the "Abomination of Desolation" Antichrist described by the Prophet Daniel.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Hi vinsight

I would think when the great tribulation is about to start, which is soon after
the abomination of desolation, the people in that area would be the ones warned to flee.
Since the people in Judea are told to leave, then how could an abomination done in the USA
fit?

I would think when the great tribulation is about to start, which is soon after
the abomination of desolation, the people in that area WILL be the ones warned to flee. I don't think that this will be left to chance. I'm not blaming the USA for this, it's difficult to explain. It's the indicator and trigger event. But I also understand it to be a global phenomenon so it's not the fault of just one nation. Prior to June 26, 2015, when the USA became the 21st nation, there were 20 other nations that made legal the sodomite marriage. And there have been many other transgressions prior to this. But eventually the rebels will reach their limit and they may have done so now. And it's amazing because if this is it, it was set to be and predicted by the Lord to happen at the foundation of the universe.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,​

Consider the possibility that these are solar and lunar eclipses. The sun will be "darkened" is not the same thing as "turned into darkness", it might be more like a partial eclipse. If we were to measure the 1290 days from June 26, 2015 it brings us to a partial solar eclipse followed by a lunar eclipse.

http://www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=6&d1=26&y1=2015&m2=1&d2=6&y2=2019

http://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2019-january-6

http://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/lunar/2019-january-21

I'm not too sure about Daniel 11 but I thought our part didn't begin until 11:36

“And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. ​

I'll boost up the Babylon post latter, I'm sure Luke 17 has the hint.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Luke17:37]

"Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.​

Seven LAST plagues seems to hint at there being seven FIRST plagues. But I wouldn't want to risk turning this into a dogma of some kind.



If you saw "the sign of the Son of Man" appearing in the sky would you mourn? I would only mourn if I was one of the wicked. When He sends His angels we are already in the air, they are gathering us from the stratosphere while "all the tribes of the earth" are mourning.

We won't mourn because we won't be included with "all the tribes of the earth" anymore. A lot can transpire in the twinkling of an eye.



No problems Luke and Shabbat Shalom to you as well.

The colorful clouds near the top of this picture are Polar Stratospheric Clouds (PSCs). The PSCs are flying high above the darker cirrus clouds at the bottom of the picture. Image courtesy of NASA (Paul Newman, GSFC).

Of course, Christians won't mourn. Perhaps they will be indoors or figuratively hidden.

Isaiah 26:20-21
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Noah and his family were behind the shut door of the ark when the flood came upon the earth, so their eyes didn't see the destruction of the wicked. The Israelites in Egypt were behind the closed blood-stained doors when the death angel(s) went through Egypt. When Jesus returns, the door of salvation through Jesus is figuratively closed at that point. God will be bringing judgment to many. Except, He can still save those left (some will apparently remain) or who are born during the thousand years.

Since Jesus comes back with the dead in Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." Revelation 19:14 "And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses."), they will see it from above.

I don't think we can be dogmatic that surviving Christians won't see it, but anyway His return will be characterized by the mourning of the wicked. Christ gave two signs to help people distinguish His true return from the fake ones: it will be as lateral lightning (not missed by anyone... not secret) (Matthew 24:27, Luke 17:24) and people will die and vultures will eat their carcasses (Luke 17:37, Matthew 24:28, Revelation 19:17-18, 21).

 

[vinsight4u]

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[stephen583]

I am 100% convinced that Scripture teaches consistently a post-tribulation resurrection/gathering of the Church.

THANK YOU LUKE 17:37 !!! The eschatological premise that the Church must be brought through the entire Tribulation Period for the purpose of refinement, purification, martyrdom, reformation and preparation for its' being presented a worthy bride to Christ is so fundamental to Christian theology, I can't believe it's even a matter of contestation in some of these posts. I'm not even going to bother posting all the Scriptural proof, as stated by the Apostles, because this is Sunday School Christian doctrine 101 time. Again. Thanks for the "Wake Up Call". It seems many are presently ASLEEP.