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Is the fundamental gap between creationists and non-creationists...

chad kincham

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It appears that you do not even understand what Pasteur demonstrated with his "Law of Biogenesis". Most creationists do not either. All he proved is that in a limited time modern day bacteria do not form in a solution of sterilized and sealed broth. He did not disprove abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis is spontaneous generation all over again: the claim that non living organic compounds can assemble themselves into a living cell.

Amino acids occur naturally in weak concentrations with equal amounts of L and R handed molecules, and both bind together equally well, yet a living cell must have all L hand amino acids - even one R handed one inactivates the protein chain.

The chirality problem falsifies abiogenesis.

Before information theory, the famous astronomer Hoyle calculated the odds for abiogenesis occurring, as equivalent to the odds of a tornado in a junkyard assembling a working 707.

Information theory calculated the odds at 1 in 97 billion, if memory serves - which is staggeringly impossible odds.
 
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chad kincham

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The problem is that Tour gets so much wrong, as shown in this video here:


By the way, if he is an "expert" as he claims, then why can't he write a proper peer reviewed article on the topic?

He has many such articles, and holds patents in the field as well.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Abiogenesis is spontaneous generation all over again: the claim that non living organic compounds can assemble themselves into a living cell.

Amino acids occur naturally in weak concentrations with equal amounts of L and R handed molecules, and both bind together equally well, yet a living cell must have all L hand amino acids - even one R handed one inactivates the protein chain.

The chirality problem falsifies abiogenesis.

Not necessarily.

It could have been something equivalent to "genetic drift" where L & R handed primitive cells formed and through random drift of the population one ended up dominant without any selective advantage.

It could have been that a L organism was the first to "invent" a particularly advantageous modification and its descendants took over the world.

It could also be that some of the pre-biotic mechanisms for making organic inputs (like amino acids) favor the L orientation, even slightly. (I thought I read something to this effect a few years ago.)

[Fun fact: Like everyone in the Mirror Universe, Mirror Spock had right-handed amino acids.]
 
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chad kincham

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Amino acids aren't a precursor to RNA?

No one is claiming to have demonstrated either a new abiogenesis or what the original was... I was pointing out your lie about the "Law of Biogenesis" somehow disproving the possibility of abiogenesis.

No, amino acids are not a DNA precursor.

DNA is complex information encoded in a biological programming language, and amino acids build protein chains.

There is no mechanism in nature that can write information in a four letter biological programming code.

Scientist Francis Collins who headed the human genome project, wrote a book called The Signature of God about DNA and the fact that it requires intelligence from a mind to write DNA - and many others acknowledge that DNA is a four letter biological programming code, just as computer programming language is a two letter (binary) code that requires a programmer.
 
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chad kincham

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Not necessarily.

It could have been something equivalent to "genetic drift" where L & R handed primitive cells formed and through random drift of the population one ended up dominant without any selective advantage.

It could have been that a L organism was the first to "invent" a particularly advantageous modification and its descendants took over the world.

It could also be that some of the pre-biotic mechanisms for making organic inputs (like amino acids) favor the L orientation, even slightly. (I thought I read something to this effect a few years ago.)

[Fun fact: Like everyone in the Mirror Universe, Mirror Spock had right-handed amino acids.]

Nothing like tenuous and completely unproven speculation to provide a counter-argument.
 
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chad kincham

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Are you talking about the video where he was caught lying so badly that he apologized to Nobel laureate Jack Szostak?

You’re completely inaccurate.

Tour pointed out some errors in a chart, and said Szostack was lying to the public, which Tour apologized for, as being inappropriate to call a mistake in a chart a lie.
 
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chad kincham

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James Tour:
Basically a materials scientist who rejects ID:..

Dr. Tour is one of the world’s top synthetic organic chemists. He has authored 680 scientific publications and holds more than 120 patents (here is a partial list). In 2014, Thomson Reuters named him one of “The World’s Most Influential Scientific Minds,” and in 2018 Clarivate Analytics recognized him as one of the world’s most highly cited researchers.

Your mischaracterizing of him is now refuted.
 
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chad kincham

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Good one! Thanks for that .. cleared up a few questions I had, too.
(Hurd needs a haircut! :) )

Hurd is a troll, slanderer, and ignoramus, to whit:

Renowned scientist James Tour at Rice University is facing the wrath of Internet trolls because of his candid evaluation of origin of life research in a recent public lecture in Dallas. For his frankness, Tour is being vilified by detractors as an attention-grabbing charlatan, an incompetent scientist, and even a “Liar for Jesus”!

Some further background might help you better appreciate the chutzpah of these claims. Dr. Tour is one of the world’s top synthetic organic chemists. He has authored 680 scientific publications and holds more than 120 patents (here is a partial list). In 2014, Thomson Reuters named him one of “The World’s Most Influential Scientific Minds,” and in 2018 Clarivate Analytics recognized him as one of the world’s most highly cited researchers.

Tour is also fearless. He joined more than a thousand other scientists in signing the “Scientific Dissent from Darwinism.” More recently, he has become a thorn in the side of the origin of life research community, offering blunt assessments of the current state of origin of life research.

Heretical Views
Such heretical views can get you into trouble. In January, Tour delivered a lecture on “The Mystery of the Origin of Life” to an audience of nearly 1,000 at a Discovery Institute conference in Dallas. The lecture has already attracted over 74,000 views on YouTube — for good reason. Tour’s public talks sizzle, and his rollicking Dallas lecture was no exception.

At one point, Tour got a bit carried away while critiquing an article by Nobel laureate Jack Szostak, one of the world’s top origin of life researchers. Highlighting an inaccurate diagram in Szostak’s article, Tour made an off-the-cuff remark about Szostak, telling the audience that “he’s lying to you.” It was an uncharitable characterization. To Tour’s credit, when he was challenged on his use of the term “lying,” he apologized directly to Szostak by phone, and he followed up with a statement to someone else, which he authorized for release to the public. Part of Tour’s statement read:

That was a strong word (“lying”) which I regret saying. I have already apologized to Jack Szostak by phone, and he very graciously accepted the apology. If given a chance, I would likewise apologize to any of those cited in that talk to whom I said such a thing. My behavior was inappropriate.

Exemplars of Civility?
Tour was right to apologize. At the same time, his detractors aren’t exactly exemplars of civility, and I suspect that some of them were far more interested in smearing Tour than promoting respectful dialogue. Take Gary Hurd, Internet atheist, troll extraordinaire, and the Internet’s main attack dog against Tour right now. Hurd’s rhetoric makes Tour’s off-the-cuff swipe at Szostak seem genteel. Hurd is the one who characterizes Tour as a “Liar for Jesus.” He also says: “James Tour lies his ass off for money, adulation, and I suppose his hopes for salvation.” Hurd (whose doctorate is in “Social Science,” not chemistry) goes on to accuse Tour of telling “15 lies in under 4 minutes counting repeated lies. That is Trumpian. And, his lies are exposed by undergraduate level chemistry. They are not even sophisticated lies. They are stupid obvious lies.”

I wonder how many people who objected to Tour’s comment about Szostak have called on Hurd to apologize for his vicious personal slurs against Tour?

The Substance of the Attack
Regardless, what about the substance of Hurd’s attack? Is Tour really a serial liar who, in less than four minutes, shows that he doesn’t understand undergraduate level chemistry? You be the judge:

1. According to Hurd, Tour was lying when he criticized as scientifically inaccurate two figures in Jack Szostak’s article labeled “Simple sugars.” When I asked Tour about this criticism, he responded that Szostak himself conceded to him that these figures were inaccurate! Tour wrote me:

As listed, the sugars do not look like sugars. One needs to have the double bond shown to one of the oxygen atoms or they are not sugars. Shown are a diol and a triol. Even Jack, when he and I spoke on the phone, conceded that point. And he blamed the error on a staff artist from Scientific American, and the mistake was transcribed when the article was used by Nature. I have written several times for the News and Views section of Nature and Nature series journals. It is an honor to be so asked. But we are asked as authors to show care to ensure accuracy. And the galley proofs are returned to us for our careful check and documented approval.

So much for this supposed lie by Tour.

2. According to Hurd, Tour was lying when he questioned the scientific accuracy of two figures in Szostak’s article labeled “Cyanide derivatives.” Not so, says Tour, who responded to me:

Either we fill in the hydrogen atoms or we show the pi bonds. But we cannot omit both. Moreover, the convention is that all heteroatoms should bear the hydrogen atoms. Only carbon can be devoid of hydrogen in the convention. But that is only to fill the valance states. So one needs to see the pi bonds if we are omitting the hydrogen atoms. Therefore, as drawn, the organic starting materials are glycerol (1,2,3-propanetriol or glycerin), ethylene glycol (1,2-ethanediol), diaminomethane (methanediamine), and 1-aminopropane. The latter two are troubling in light of the text which mentions iron cyanide. Iron(III) cyanide complexes are extremely stable; there is little free cyanide expected to be in the solution, so maybe Szostak is speaking of something else.

Once again, the charge that Tour was lying or incompetent disintegrates.

Another Charge Evaporates
3. According to Hurd, Tour was lying as well when he claimed that the diagram labeled “RNA nucleotide” in Szostak’s article was inaccurate. Tour’s response to me: “it is not a nucleotide since it is devoid of any stereochemistry.” Again, the charge that Tour doesn’t understand basic chemistry seems to evaporate.

Tour went on to explain that the errors he found in the drawings pale in comparison to the biggest problem with Szostak’s Nature article:

…all of the above is minor compared to Szostak’s showing that in a single step, heat and light can make a compound that resembles a dehydrated nucleotide (though it is not a nucleotide since it is devoid of any stereochemistry) from “simple sugars” and “cyanide derivatives.” …The major issue is that heat and light cannot afford that conversion from ethylene glycol, glycerol, or the sugar products derived thereupon after their oxidation to the aldehydes. To present that heat and UV light can act on these compounds (even if we are to use these 2 and 3 carbon simple sugars rather than glycerol and ethylene glycol, and to use any simple cyanide derivative) to afford anything like the listed “RNA nucleotide” (albeit not a nucleotide since it shows no stereochemistry) is incorrect and misleading. There are so many steps involved in such a transformation. But to a biologists, like Szostak, explaining to the non-expert, he feels the details are not essential for him to point out. But the details are everything!

4. Hurd further accuses Tour of lying because Tour declared that Szostak’s article was published by the journal Nature. Hurd argues that the article only appeared in a special section of Nature described by the journal as “an editorially independent supplement produced with the financial support of third parties.” Hurd seems to be implying that Nature wasn’t really editorially responsible for the article. But if you follow the “About this content” link provided by Nature itself, you find an expanded explanation that makes clear Szostak’s article was vetted and approved by Nature’s regular editorial staff. “Editorially independent” means not that Szostak’s article was independent from Nature, but that it was independent from the influence of funders. The content was “already deemed worthy of coverage by our editorial departments… The ultimate approval of any story rests with the editorial department.” So the article in question was definitely published by Nature — just like Tour said. Again, no error, and certainly no lie.

The Primary Literature
5. Hurd chastises Tour for introducing this section of his lecture by saying he was going to look at the “primary literature” and then immediately talking about Szostak’s article, which was a popular-level summary rather than a piece of primary original research. At last, a fair point (sort of), which Tour concedes in his letter to me. But this is a quibble. Whether a popular piece or original research, the article in question was published with the backing of one of the world’s most prestigious science journals and written by one of the world’s leading authorities on origin of life research. That definitely makes the article fair game for Tour and others to criticize. It should be added that Tour went on in his talk to critique other articles that unquestionably are part of the “primary literature,” just like he promised, and he does this even more in his letter to me and in an earlier essay. So this particular complaint is much ado about nothing.

Finally, Hurd dismisses Tour’s lecture as a whole by asserting: “There are too many falsehoods, and misrepresentations to review in detail.” But if there really were so many falsehoods in Tour’s talk, you would think Hurd would choose to refute the ones that were the most central to Tour’s hour-long critique. Instead, Hurd obsesses about four minutes where Tour criticizes one short article. I’ve seen Hurd’s critique treated online as if it were a devastating takedown of Tour’s views. But anyone who watches Tour’s entire lecture can easily see that all Hurd offers is (at best) a skirmish at the edges.

Is that because he and others have no serious response to offer to Tour’s main critique? Judge for yourself by watching Tour’s entire talk or reading his full response to his critics.
 
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chad kincham

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There is no video of the apology itself, but the fact of it is supported by both sides. His video was rather awful. I will have to see if I can find the video of another chemist who demonstrates how Tour lied.

This sets the record straight, but don’t let the truth get in the way of slander.

Renowned scientist James Tour at Rice University is facing the wrath of Internet trolls because of his candid evaluation of origin of life research in a recent public lecture in Dallas. For his frankness, Tour is being vilified by detractors as an attention-grabbing charlatan, an incompetent scientist, and even a “Liar for Jesus”!

Some further background might help you better appreciate the chutzpah of these claims. Dr. Tour is one of the world’s top synthetic organic chemists. He has authored 680 scientific publications and holds more than 120 patents (here is a partial list). In 2014, Thomson Reuters named him one of “The World’s Most Influential Scientific Minds,” and in 2018 Clarivate Analytics recognized him as one of the world’s most highly cited researchers.

Tour is also fearless. He joined more than a thousand other scientists in signing the “Scientific Dissent from Darwinism.” More recently, he has become a thorn in the side of the origin of life research community, offering blunt assessments of the current state of origin of life research.

Heretical Views
Such heretical views can get you into trouble. In January, Tour delivered a lecture on “The Mystery of the Origin of Life” to an audience of nearly 1,000 at a Discovery Institute conference in Dallas. The lecture has already attracted over 74,000 views on YouTube — for good reason. Tour’s public talks sizzle, and his rollicking Dallas lecture was no exception.

At one point, Tour got a bit carried away while critiquing an article by Nobel laureate Jack Szostak, one of the world’s top origin of life researchers. Highlighting an inaccurate diagram in Szostak’s article, Tour made an off-the-cuff remark about Szostak, telling the audience that “he’s lying to you.” It was an uncharitable characterization. To Tour’s credit, when he was challenged on his use of the term “lying,” he apologized directly to Szostak by phone, and he followed up with a statement to someone else, which he authorized for release to the public. Part of Tour’s statement read:

That was a strong word (“lying”) which I regret saying. I have already apologized to Jack Szostak by phone, and he very graciously accepted the apology. If given a chance, I would likewise apologize to any of those cited in that talk to whom I said such a thing. My behavior was inappropriate.

Exemplars of Civility?
Tour was right to apologize. At the same time, his detractors aren’t exactly exemplars of civility, and I suspect that some of them were far more interested in smearing Tour than promoting respectful dialogue. Take Gary Hurd, Internet atheist, troll extraordinaire, and the Internet’s main attack dog against Tour right now. Hurd’s rhetoric makes Tour’s off-the-cuff swipe at Szostak seem genteel. Hurd is the one who characterizes Tour as a “Liar for Jesus.” He also says: “James Tour lies his ass off for money, adulation, and I suppose his hopes for salvation.” Hurd (whose doctorate is in “Social Science,” not chemistry) goes on to accuse Tour of telling “15 lies in under 4 minutes counting repeated lies. That is Trumpian. And, his lies are exposed by undergraduate level chemistry. They are not even sophisticated lies. They are stupid obvious lies.”

I wonder how many people who objected to Tour’s comment about Szostak have called on Hurd to apologize for his vicious personal slurs against Tour?

The Substance of the Attack
Regardless, what about the substance of Hurd’s attack? Is Tour really a serial liar who, in less than four minutes, shows that he doesn’t understand undergraduate level chemistry? You be the judge:

1. According to Hurd, Tour was lying when he criticized as scientifically inaccurate two figures in Jack Szostak’s article labeled “Simple sugars.” When I asked Tour about this criticism, he responded that Szostak himself conceded to him that these figures were inaccurate! Tour wrote me:

As listed, the sugars do not look like sugars. One needs to have the double bond shown to one of the oxygen atoms or they are not sugars. Shown are a diol and a triol. Even Jack, when he and I spoke on the phone, conceded that point. And he blamed the error on a staff artist from Scientific American, and the mistake was transcribed when the article was used by Nature. I have written several times for the News and Views section of Nature and Nature series journals. It is an honor to be so asked. But we are asked as authors to show care to ensure accuracy. And the galley proofs are returned to us for our careful check and documented approval.

So much for this supposed lie by Tour.

2. According to Hurd, Tour was lying when he questioned the scientific accuracy of two figures in Szostak’s article labeled “Cyanide derivatives.” Not so, says Tour, who responded to me:

Either we fill in the hydrogen atoms or we show the pi bonds. But we cannot omit both. Moreover, the convention is that all heteroatoms should bear the hydrogen atoms. Only carbon can be devoid of hydrogen in the convention. But that is only to fill the valance states. So one needs to see the pi bonds if we are omitting the hydrogen atoms. Therefore, as drawn, the organic starting materials are glycerol (1,2,3-propanetriol or glycerin), ethylene glycol (1,2-ethanediol), diaminomethane (methanediamine), and 1-aminopropane. The latter two are troubling in light of the text which mentions iron cyanide. Iron(III) cyanide complexes are extremely stable; there is little free cyanide expected to be in the solution, so maybe Szostak is speaking of something else.

Once again, the charge that Tour was lying or incompetent disintegrates.

Another Charge Evaporates
3. According to Hurd, Tour was lying as well when he claimed that the diagram labeled “RNA nucleotide” in Szostak’s article was inaccurate. Tour’s response to me: “it is not a nucleotide since it is devoid of any stereochemistry.” Again, the charge that Tour doesn’t understand basic chemistry seems to evaporate.

Tour went on to explain that the errors he found in the drawings pale in comparison to the biggest problem with Szostak’s Nature article:

…all of the above is minor compared to Szostak’s showing that in a single step, heat and light can make a compound that resembles a dehydrated nucleotide (though it is not a nucleotide since it is devoid of any stereochemistry) from “simple sugars” and “cyanide derivatives.” …The major issue is that heat and light cannot afford that conversion from ethylene glycol, glycerol, or the sugar products derived thereupon after their oxidation to the aldehydes. To present that heat and UV light can act on these compounds (even if we are to use these 2 and 3 carbon simple sugars rather than glycerol and ethylene glycol, and to use any simple cyanide derivative) to afford anything like the listed “RNA nucleotide” (albeit not a nucleotide since it shows no stereochemistry) is incorrect and misleading. There are so many steps involved in such a transformation. But to a biologists, like Szostak, explaining to the non-expert, he feels the details are not essential for him to point out. But the details are everything!

4. Hurd further accuses Tour of lying because Tour declared that Szostak’s article was published by the journal Nature. Hurd argues that the article only appeared in a special section of Nature described by the journal as “an editorially independent supplement produced with the financial support of third parties.” Hurd seems to be implying that Nature wasn’t really editorially responsible for the article. But if you follow the “About this content” link provided by Nature itself, you find an expanded explanation that makes clear Szostak’s article was vetted and approved by Nature’s regular editorial staff. “Editorially independent” means not that Szostak’s article was independent from Nature, but that it was independent from the influence of funders. The content was “already deemed worthy of coverage by our editorial departments… The ultimate approval of any story rests with the editorial department.” So the article in question was definitely published by Nature — just like Tour said. Again, no error, and certainly no lie.

The Primary Literature
5. Hurd chastises Tour for introducing this section of his lecture by saying he was going to look at the “primary literature” and then immediately talking about Szostak’s article, which was a popular-level summary rather than a piece of primary original research. At last, a fair point (sort of), which Tour concedes in his letter to me. But this is a quibble. Whether a popular piece or original research, the article in question was published with the backing of one of the world’s most prestigious science journals and written by one of the world’s leading authorities on origin of life research. That definitely makes the article fair game for Tour and others to criticize. It should be added that Tour went on in his talk to critique other articles that unquestionably are part of the “primary literature,” just like he promised, and he does this even more in his letter to me and in an earlier essay. So this particular complaint is much ado about nothing.

Finally, Hurd dismisses Tour’s lecture as a whole by asserting: “There are too many falsehoods, and misrepresentations to review in detail.” But if there really were so many falsehoods in Tour’s talk, you would think Hurd would choose to refute the ones that were the most central to Tour’s hour-long critique. Instead, Hurd obsesses about four minutes where Tour criticizes one short article. I’ve seen Hurd’s critique treated online as if it were a devastating takedown of Tour’s views. But anyone who watches Tour’s entire lecture can easily see that all Hurd offers is (at best) a skirmish at the edges.

Is that because he and others have no serious response to offer to Tour’s main critique? Judge for yourself by watching Tour’s entire talk or reading his full response to his critics.
 
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SelfSim

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.. and endless related components that no one can make, and without which a cell couldn’t exist,
Artificial ribozymes:
In 2015, researchers at Northwestern University and the University of Illinois at Chicago have engineered a tethered ribosome that works nearly as well as the authentic cellular component that produces all the proteins and enzymes within the cell. Called Ribosome-T, or Ribo-T, the artificial ribosome was created by Michael Jewett and Alexander Mankin. The techniques used to create artificial ribozymes involve directed evolution. This approach takes advantage of RNA's dual nature as both a catalyst and an informational polymer, making it easy for an investigator to produce vast populations of RNA catalysts using polymerase enzymes.
 
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chad kincham

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Amino acids aren't a precursor to RNA?

No one is claiming to have demonstrated either a new abiogenesis or what the original was... I was pointing out your lie about the "Law of Biogenesis" somehow disproving the possibility of abiogenesis.

The fact that life only comes from life precludes the abiogenesis fairy from magically causing organic chemicals to come to life.

Abiogenesis remains completely unproven, in any possible prebiotic scenario - where there’s no one in a white lab coat to use purified chemicals and stop reactions they get before they continue and polymerize and become useless, etc.
 
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Subduction Zone

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You’re completely inaccurate.

Tour pointed out some errors in a chart, and said Szostack was lying to the public, which Tour apologized for, as being inappropriate to call a mistake in a chart a lie.
He did not point out any errors. He made false claims and called Szostak a liar. If anyone was a liar it was Tour. He also lied by claiming where he stated that the articles was from the "primary literature". It was not. That you bought this lie tells us that you do not understand what the primary literature is. The article that he was complaining about was a letter. Those are less formal and are used to generally instruct people. Shortcuts are allowed. Slang is even allowed. They do not "prove" anything, that is done in the parts of Nature that are peer reviewed. All of Szostak's claims were based on ideas that went through peer review. The ideas would have been presented much more formally there. Here he "dumbed it down" a bit. It seems that he did not dumb it down enough for Tour. Or there is one other possibility. Tour was lying. If you claim that Tour knows this subject, and he should, then he was lying.
 
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Subduction Zone

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The fact that life only comes from life precludes the abiogenesis fairy from magically causing organic chemicals to come to life.

Abiogenesis remains completely unproven, in any possible prebiotic scenario - where there’s no one in a white lab coat to use purified chemicals and stop reactions they get before they continue and polymerize and become useless, etc.
No, right now life only comes from life. Do you think it was always that way?
 
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SelfSim

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And there’s only several million more steps required to build a living cell. Gee, they’re so close!
A biochemical network modeling of a whole-cell
In this work, a framework was presented for integrating cellular processes at a whole-cell scale, using rule-based modeling in a broader context. Besides the incorporation of network-modeled processes, such as metabolism, we were also capable to model processes that are not usually represented as networks, such as replication, transcription, and translation. We applied the framework directives to model whole-cell scale information about the Mycoplasma genitalium organism stored in specialized databases aiming to probe the capabilities of the framework. The obtained whole-cell biochemical network accounted for a great variety of molecules and cellular structures, as well as the interactions between them covering almost all processes known in the organism.
 
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No, right now life only comes from life. Do you think it was always that way?
It is only known to come from life.
At one time it was not known there are wombats.
If like spontaneously arises every day who would ever even know?
 
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Subduction Zone

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This sets the record straight, but don’t let the truth get in the way of slander.

Renowned scientist James Tour at Rice University is facing the wrath of Internet trolls because of his candid evaluation of origin of life research in a recent public lecture in Dallas. For his frankness, Tour is being vilified by detractors as an attention-grabbing charlatan, an incompetent scientist, and even a “Liar for Jesus”!

No, he was caught lying. Tour openly lied. He gave a mealy mouthed apology for his lying.

Some further background might help you better appreciate the chutzpah of these claims. Dr. Tour is one of the world’s top synthetic organic chemists. He has authored 680 scientific publications and holds more than 120 patents (here is a partial list). In 2014, Thomson Reuters named him one of “The World’s Most Influential Scientific Minds,” and in 2018 Clarivate Analytics recognized him as one of the world’s most highly cited researchers.

Tour is also fearless. He joined more than a thousand other scientists in signing the “Scientific Dissent from Darwinism.” More recently, he has become a thorn in the side of the origin of life research community, offering blunt assessments of the current state of origin of life research.

Correct. The sort of undergraduate level errors that Tour made makes his statements without excuse. He lied. He knew better.


Heretical Views
Such heretical views can get you into trouble. In January, Tour delivered a lecture on “The Mystery of the Origin of Life” to an audience of nearly 1,000 at a Discovery Institute conference in Dallas. The lecture has already attracted over 74,000 views on YouTube — for good reason. Tour’s public talks sizzle, and his rollicking Dallas lecture was no exception.

Now you are projecting. There is no heresy in the sciences. One merely needs to be able to support one's claims. Please note, the work that Szostak was writing about all went through peer review. The simpler letter that Tour was criticizing of course did not. Not all of Nature consists of peer reviewed articles. Tour as a professional would have known better. He lied when he complained abut words such as "nudge".

At one point, Tour got a bit carried away while critiquing an article by Nobel laureate Jack Szostak, one of the world’s top origin of life researchers. Highlighting an inaccurate diagram in Szostak’s article, Tour made an off-the-cuff remark about Szostak, telling the audience that “he’s lying to you.” It was an uncharitable characterization. To Tour’s credit, when he was challenged on his use of the term “lying,” he apologized directly to Szostak by phone, and he followed up with a statement to someone else, which he authorized for release to the public. Part of Tour’s statement read:

That was a strong word (“lying”) which I regret saying. I have already apologized to Jack Szostak by phone, and he very graciously accepted the apology. If given a chance, I would likewise apologize to any of those cited in that talk to whom I said such a thing. My behavior was inappropriate.

Since Tour was guilty of all of the wrongs that he accused Szostak of his apology was insufficient.

Exemplars of Civility?
Tour was right to apologize. At the same time, his detractors aren’t exactly exemplars of civility, and I suspect that some of them were far more interested in smearing Tour than promoting respectful dialogue. Take Gary Hurd, Internet atheist, troll extraordinaire, and the Internet’s main attack dog against Tour right now. Hurd’s rhetoric makes Tour’s off-the-cuff swipe at Szostak seem genteel. Hurd is the one who characterizes Tour as a “Liar for Jesus.” He also says: “James Tour lies his ass off for money, adulation, and I suppose his hopes for salvation.” Hurd (whose doctorate is in “Social Science,” not chemistry) goes on to accuse Tour of telling “15 lies in under 4 minutes counting repeated lies. That is Trumpian. And, his lies are exposed by undergraduate level chemistry. They are not even sophisticated lies. They are stupid obvious lies.”

A false apology where one does not come clean is not being civil. He was still lying in his apology.

I wonder how many people who objected to Tour’s comment about Szostak have called on Hurd to apologize for his vicious personal slurs against Tour?

The Substance of the Attack
Regardless, what about the substance of Hurd’s attack? Is Tour really a serial liar who, in less than four minutes, shows that he doesn’t understand undergraduate level chemistry? You be the judge:

1. According to Hurd, Tour was lying when he criticized as scientifically inaccurate two figures in Jack Szostak’s article labeled “Simple sugars.” When I asked Tour about this criticism, he responded that Szostak himself conceded to him that these figures were inaccurate! Tour wrote me:

As listed, the sugars do not look like sugars. One needs to have the double bond shown to one of the oxygen atoms or they are not sugars. Shown are a diol and a triol. Even Jack, when he and I spoke on the phone, conceded that point. And he blamed the error on a staff artist from Scientific American, and the mistake was transcribed when the article was used by Nature. I have written several times for the News and Views section of Nature and Nature series journals. It is an honor to be so asked. But we are asked as authors to show care to ensure accuracy. And the galley proofs are returned to us for our careful check and documented approval.

So much for this supposed lie by Tour.

But they were simple sugars. They do not look like sugars, but any undergrad would have recognized the shortcuts being used. This was not a peer reviewed article. It was meant to get a concept across. They were sugars. Tour lied, try again. Tour would have known about these shortcuts as well. Guess what would have been in the article if it was a piece of the "primary literature" that Tour kept ranting about? The missing double bonds would have been there. For an informal work they can be assumed.

2. According to Hurd, Tour was lying when he questioned the scientific accuracy of two figures in Szostak’s article labeled “Cyanide derivatives.” Not so, says Tour, who responded to me:

Either we fill in the hydrogen atoms or we show the pi bonds. But we cannot omit both. Moreover, the convention is that all heteroatoms should bear the hydrogen atoms. Only carbon can be devoid of hydrogen in the convention. But that is only to fill the valance states. So one needs to see the pi bonds if we are omitting the hydrogen atoms. Therefore, as drawn, the organic starting materials are glycerol (1,2,3-propanetriol or glycerin), ethylene glycol (1,2-ethanediol), diaminomethane (methanediamine), and 1-aminopropane. The latter two are troubling in light of the text which mentions iron cyanide. Iron(III) cyanide complexes are extremely stable; there is little free cyanide expected to be in the solution, so maybe Szostak is speaking of something else.

Once again, the charge that Tour was lying or incompetent disintegrates.

Nope, once again that is only needed for a formal work. This was not a formal work and anyone who understands chemistry would have understood that they were implied. I will repeat that in the primary literature there are higher standards. This was more to inform the nonexperts in the sciences.

Another Charge Evaporates
3. According to Hurd, Tour was lying as well when he claimed that the diagram labeled “RNA nucleotide” in Szostak’s article was inaccurate. Tour’s response to me: “it is not a nucleotide since it is devoid of any stereochemistry.” Again, the charge that Tour doesn’t understand basic chemistry seems to evaporate.

Tour went on to explain that the errors he found in the drawings pale in comparison to the biggest problem with Szostak’s Nature article:

…all of the above is minor compared to Szostak’s showing that in a single step, heat and light can make a compound that resembles a dehydrated nucleotide (though it is not a nucleotide since it is devoid of any stereochemistry) from “simple sugars” and “cyanide derivatives.” …The major issue is that heat and light cannot afford that conversion from ethylene glycol, glycerol, or the sugar products derived thereupon after their oxidation to the aldehydes. To present that heat and UV light can act on these compounds (even if we are to use these 2 and 3 carbon simple sugars rather than glycerol and ethylene glycol, and to use any simple cyanide derivative) to afford anything like the listed “RNA nucleotide” (albeit not a nucleotide since it shows no stereochemistry) is incorrect and misleading. There are so many steps involved in such a transformation. But to a biologists, like Szostak, explaining to the non-expert, he feels the details are not essential for him to point out. But the details are everything!

And we see the same weak excuse by Tour again. He knows that he was lying. He got caught being an idiot.

4. Hurd further accuses Tour of lying because Tour declared that Szostak’s article was published by the journal Nature. Hurd argues that the article only appeared in a special section of Nature described by the journal as “an editorially independent supplement produced with the financial support of third parties.” Hurd seems to be implying that Nature wasn’t really editorially responsible for the article. But if you follow the “About this content” link provided by Nature itself, you find an expanded explanation that makes clear Szostak’s article was vetted and approved by Nature’s regular editorial staff. “Editorially independent” means not that Szostak’s article was independent from Nature, but that it was independent from the influence of funders. The content was “already deemed worthy of coverage by our editorial departments… The ultimate approval of any story rests with the editorial department.” So the article in question was definitely published by Nature — just like Tour said. Again, no error, and certainly no lie.

And Hurd is right again. This was not a formal part of Nature. It is not peer reviewed. Shortcuts are allowed as long as the ideas are sound. All of the ideas were sound Tour as much has admitted that they were. He lied and tried to ridicule Szostak.

The Primary Literature
5. Hurd chastises Tour for introducing this section of his lecture by saying he was going to look at the “primary literature” and then immediately talking about Szostak’s article, which was a popular-level summary rather than a piece of primary original research. At last, a fair point (sort of), which Tour concedes in his letter to me. But this is a quibble. Whether a popular piece or original research, the article in question was published with the backing of one of the world’s most prestigious science journals and written by one of the world’s leading authorities on origin of life research. That definitely makes the article fair game for Tour and others to criticize. It should be added that Tour went on in his talk to critique other articles that unquestionably are part of the “primary literature,” just like he promised, and he does this even more in his letter to me and in an earlier essay. So this particular complaint is much ado about nothing.

No, it is far from a quibble. It is where all of Tour's claims evaporate. When one realizes that academic rigor is not required for this part of the journal, but that all of the ideas were presented formally when they went through peer review all of Tour's claims vanish. He had to know this. Tour was lying.

Finally, Hurd dismisses Tour’s lecture as a whole by asserting: “There are too many falsehoods, and misrepresentations to review in detail.” But if there really were so many falsehoods in Tour’s talk, you would think Hurd would choose to refute the ones that were the most central to Tour’s hour-long critique. Instead, Hurd obsesses about four minutes where Tour criticizes one short article. I’ve seen Hurd’s critique treated online as if it were a devastating takedown of Tour’s views. But anyone who watches Tour’s entire lecture can easily see that all Hurd offers is (at best) a skirmish at the edges.

Is that because he and others have no serious response to offer to Tour’s main critique? Judge for yourself by watching Tour’s entire talk or reading his full response to his critics.

He was right. He is not being paid to refute Tour. Tour shot himself in the foot by repeatedly lying. He has never published any of his anti-abiogenesis beliefs in a peer reviewed article in a well respected scientific journal. When one makes such errors as Tour did and he never owns up to his mistakes the rest of his work does not need to be looked at. He already failed in an epic manner.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It is only known to come from life.
At one time it was not known there are wombats.
If like spontaneously arises every day who would ever even know?
We probably would. Of course we do not have the same environment that existed when life arose. Life itself will consume the precursors to life. The existence of life makes new life very hard if not impossible to rise again.

There is scientific evidence for abiogenesis. Those opposing it cannot seem to find any scientific evidence for their beliefs. They cannot even formally state those beliefs.
 
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SelfSim

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Those opposing it cannot seem to find any scientific evidence for their beliefs. They cannot even formally state those beliefs.
It shouldn't go unnoticed that just about every claim made (to me) by @chad kincham, over the last several pages of this thread, has been demonstrated objectively, (by linking to peer reviewed journal materials), as being completely and utterly false!
(I don't think I've ever seen such a perfect demonstration of falseness, as he has given us!)
You are more than justified in saying his basis of argument is pure belief .. (as I predict he will continue to demonstrate, by showing no logic or objective science basis for his claims).
 
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