Is the fundamental gap between creationists and non-creationists...

[Speedwell]

Lol a rainstorm? How about all the components of the universe? You are thinking so small. Evolution isn't an entity. It can not do anything without all the building blocks and mechanisms that have to function in perfect Harmony. I don't necessarily believe God moves every piece manually, but he does hold all of creation together. Your view of God as having to constantly meddle shows how small you are thinking. God doesn't expend effort, as if it took a great deal of focus and concentration for him to run the universe. He's infinite in every way.

Yes, that theistic evolution, not creationism. The "meddling" God is the God of ID, which is neither.

 

[renniks]

Crystals don’t build themselves?

What evidence do you have to substantiate the claim that everything is designed.

You can not have crystals without the water or molten rock or whatever is forming crystals. They don't form themselves from nothing.
You can not have adaptation unless something has all the necessary components to adapt. Miss one piece of the puzzle in the whole thing falls apart.
When Darwin came up with his theory it was assumed that a cell was pretty simple. We know better now. At what point do we just admit that life is too complicated to have just happened?

 

[Speedwell]

No I don't think so. Creationists don't claim the science is wrong. They just claim that scientists are interpreting some of the evidence wrong.

Creationists frequently tell us that the theory of evolution is a lie of Satan conspired with by evil atheistic scientists worldwide whose only goal is to deny the Bible. Henry Morris, the founder of modern creationism stated "The purpose of the theory of evolution is to deny the existence of God." The theory of evolution is a concocted hoax, not science, and everybody knows it, even the scientists who created it. Should I go on, or would you rather wait a day or so until a real creationist shows up and rants at us? Maybe he will even tell us who is a real Christian (only one who believes in the literal historical inerrancy of Genesis) and who is only pretending in order to further the hoax, or has been duped in to losing his Salvation by accepting the theory of evolution.

 

[renniks]

Yes, that theistic evolution, not creationism. The "meddling" God is the God of ID, which is neither.

No, ID isn't God meddling. It's God creating a system that he runs.
Not some little god inside creation scurrying around and tweaking things.

 

[Speedwell]

You can not have crystals without the water or molten rock or whatever is forming crystals. They don't form themselves from nothing.
You can not have adaptation unless something has all the necessary components to adapt. Miss one piece of the puzzle in the whole thing falls apart.
When Darwin came up with his theory it was assumed that a cell was pretty simple. We know better now. At what point do we just admit that life is too complicated to have just happened?

From what science is finding out, it's beginning to look like that's just what might have happened. By that I mean it is very likely that abiogenesis proceeded by the action of natural forces, in the same way as evolution proceeds by natural forces.

 

[renniks]

Creationists frequently tell us that the theory of evolution is a lie of Satan conspired with by evil atheistic scientists worldwide whose only goal is to deny the Bible. Henry Morris, the founder of modern creationism stated "The purpose of the theory of evolution is to deny the existence of God." The theory of evolution is a concocted hoax, not science, and everybody knows it, even the scientists who created it. Should I go on, or would you rather wait a day or so until a real creationist shows up and rants at us? Maybe he will even tell us who is a real Christian (only one who believes in the literal historical inerrancy of Genesis) and who is only pretending in order to further the hoax, or has been duped in to losing his Salvation by accepting the theory of evolution.

Granted, a lot of "creationists on forums don't understand all the different creation theories out there.
And most of the time " evolution" isn't even defined, so we really don't know if the person we are arguing with defines it the same as we do.
What creationists are really arguing against is a world that came from nothing, and a universe that just is, with no transcendent Being involved.

 

[renniks]

From what science is finding out, it's beginning to look like that's just what might have happened. By that I mean it is very likely that abiogenesis proceeded by the action of natural forces, in the same way as evolution proceeds by natural forces.

What is a natural force? Did it create itself? So you end up at the same place creationists do, depending on a force that just was there somehow.

 

[Speedwell]

No, ID isn't God meddling. It's God creating a system that he runs.

Most people call that theistic evolution. You really don't know much about the ID movement, do you?

Not some little god inside creation scurrying around and tweaking things.

According to ID, as I understand it, some biological structures are created by the action of evolution but others (those which are "irreducibly complex") require the specific intervention of a "designer," the tinkering God.

 

[Speedwell]

What is a natural force? Did it create itself? So you end up at the same place creationists do, depending on a force that just was there somehow.

And...?

 

[dlamberth]

I really don't know. My guess is that he's both inside and outside his creation. But we aren't told how he holds it together. Is matter just formed from nothing or did he make it from himself? At least I think that's what you're asking.

Are you able to see maybe some sense Divine ground in Nature?

 

[renniks]

According to ID, as I understand it, some biological structures are created by the action of evolution but others (those which are "irreducibly complex") require the specific intervention of a "designer," the tinkering God.

I think that's just the evolutionists stereotype of ID.
If God designed the whole system, what need is there for tinkering? It's just that they can't get their head out of God as being inside creation, rather than transcendent.

 

[Speedwell]

Granted, a lot of "creationists on forums don't understand all the different creation theories out there.
And most of the time " evolution" isn't even defined, so we really don't know if the person we are arguing with defines it the same as we do.
What creationists are really arguing against is a world that came from nothing, and a universe that just is, with no transcendent Being involved.

Just like theistic evolutionists. No, what creationists are about is the literal historical inerrancy of Genesis. That is the "gap" between creationism and evolution. Theism v. atheism doesn't even come into it. The theory of evolution does not deny the existence of God nor any fundamental Christian doctrine.

 

[dlamberth]

What is a natural force? Did it create itself? So you end up at the same place creationists do, depending on a force that just was there somehow.

That Natural Force of creativity that the Universe is was birth at the moment of the Big Bang.

 

[renniks]

And...?

So don't you find it ironic that scientists do the exact thing that they make fun of creationists doing? Saying in essence: "God did it." Only substituting some random force that just is?

 

[Speedwell]

I think that's just the evolutionists stereotype of ID.
If God designed the whole system, what need is there for tinkering? It's just that they can't get their head out of God as being inside creation, rather than transcendent.

No, I've read their stuff--Behe, etc. Yeah, God created the whole thing, but He has to intervene on the genetic level sometimes to make it all work.

 

[renniks]

That Natural Force of creativity that the Universe is was birth at the moment of the Big Bang.

That doesn't make sense. Okay then, what fueled the Big bang? You can't have a "bang" (actually an expansion) without anything to expand.

 

[Speedwell]

So don't you find it ironic that scientists do the exact thing that they make fun of creationists doing? Saying in essence: "God did it." Only substituting some random force that just is?

That dog won't hunt. Too many scientists are theists for your snark to be plausible.

 

[renniks]

No, I've read their stuff--Behe, etc. Yeah, God created the whole thing, but He has to intervene on the genetic level sometimes to make it all work.

And if God does one miracle ever, it throws off the scientist calculations completely.

God doesn't have to tinker, but he can go against his own rules if he chooses.

At any rate creation still demands a designer, either way. It doesn't explain itself adequately.

 

[renniks]

That dog won't hunt. Too many scientists are theists for your snark to be plausible.

Sure it will. You see it on here all the time. Atheists who rely on evolution for everything making fun of Christians for saying God did it.

 

[Speedwell]

That doesn't make sense. Okay then, what fueled the Big bang? You can't have a "bang" (actually an expansion) without anything to expand.

Nobody knows. Even if "God did it" we wouldn't know if He did it then or sometime before to a previous universe that we can't even imagine.