Is the fundamental gap between creationists and non-creationists...

[dlamberth]

I suppose. But nature is broken, so it's never perfect. What we see is a pale reflection of Eden.

Nature is absolutely perfect in every way. The only thing broken is our separation from Nature.

 

[renniks]

How does that change the science involved? The main tenet of the kind of creationism we are talking about here is that science is wrong, even an outright lie. How is it wrong?

No I don't think so. Creationists don't claim the science is wrong. They just claim that scientists are interpreting some of the evidence wrong.

 

[renniks]

Nature is absolutely perfect in every way. The only thing broken is our separation from Nature.

Nothing perfect about a world with sin and death in it. Our ultimate purpose isn't to become one with the universe. It's to worship the Creator of the universe.

 

[renniks]

Life is not a machine anymore than you or I are a machine.

Oh but we are composed of machines. Just let one part misfunction and you know that we live in an imperfect reality.

 

[renniks]

That's not where science is suppose to go, nor should it go. For any kind of Creation story we have all we need in the Earth itSelf.

"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
( Robert Jastrow)

 

[Astrid]

Intervening? No, creating the entire process of creation isn't intervening!
Run themselves? Lol, that's hilarious. No machine runs itself without a creator and maintenance.

Odd sense of humour.
Your first point basically agrees with what I said-
A God could of set it up.
Zero evidence that God or Batboy
did set it all up, but hey, it seems possible.

As for machines though. A waterfall is a machine?
Weather, crystals growing, erosion, the tide or a tree growing are,
machines?
Surely you jest.
But if you think a waterfall is a machine that needs someone to make it
and keep it operating, that's your belief and who is to stop you.

Of course you in the process you make it clear that you are not
ready for adult conversation, so maybe rethink that?



If though you can make a good case for belief in an omnipotent
who cannot figure out how to let evolution or a rainstorm work and has to meddle
constantly, go for it.

Bonus if you can show that those things are machines.

 

[Astrid]

Same old insulting atheists. Nothing new to see here.

Great response from someone who was just saying
"LOL, hilarious, and, ridiculous"
The stereotyping and bigotry, take those up
with your source of perfect morality.

 

[dlamberth]

Nothing perfect about a world with sin and death in it. Our ultimate purpose isn't to become one with the universe. It's to worship the Creator of the universe.

As I look around, the Universe changes, planets, stars and everything in it are born and die. And in matter spirit resides. It all works as One.

 

[Astrid]

As I look around, the Universe changes, planets, stars and everything in it are born and die. And in matter spirit resides. It all works as One.

" resides"? Pushes each electron around its little orbit?

 

[Larniavc]

They believe in God because they haven't yet been corrupted by cynicism.

No, they believe because they trust what adults tell them.

 

[Larniavc]

Show me a complex machine that builds itself. You have iron ore in the Earth. Surely it can grind itself some gears and a chain and a bicycle can be found growing for the picking.
Yet the material that composes our bodies is made up of tiny machines within machines within machines within machines. And it just grew itself from nothing...

I can’t show you a complex machine that builds itself.

So, can you confirm that is something cannot build itself it is not designed?

 

[dlamberth]

" resides"? Pushes each electron around its little orbit?

If all one sees is mater as just stuff, yes.
If on the other hand if one see a sort of luminous ground within mater, a whole different picture comes to light. (Pun intended)

 

[renniks]

If though you can make a good case for belief in an omnipotent
who cannot figure out how to let evolution or a rainstorm work and has to meddle
constantly, go for it.

Lol a rainstorm? How about all the components of the universe? You are thinking so small. Evolution isn't an entity. It can not do anything without all the building blocks and mechanisms that have to function in perfect Harmony. I don't necessarily believe God moves every piece manually, but he does hold all of creation together. Your view of God as having to constantly meddle shows how small you are thinking. God doesn't expend effort, as if it took a great deal of focus and concentration for him to run the universe. He's infinite in every way.

 

[renniks]

Great response from someone who was just saying
"LOL, hilarious, and, ridiculous"
The stereotyping and bigotry, take those up
with your source of perfect morality.

Oh now it's bigotry? You just keep getting funnier!

 

[renniks]

So, can you confirm that is something cannot build itself it is not designed?

That's backwards. There's nothing that exists that isn't designed. And nothing builds itself.
A universe of beauty and design has to have a designer.

 

[Frank Robert]

No I don't think so. Creationists don't claim the science is wrong. They just claim that scientists are interpreting some of the evidence wrong.

That is true, but what does "interpreting the evidence" mean? In science it means looking for natural explanations for what we observe. Most creationists interpretations is from negative evidence based on short comings of evolutionary evidence and predictions and even on when science self-corrects when additional evidence becomes available. For example, take the Discovery Institute which is the largest creationist think tank that advocates for concept of intelligent design. It spends millions on publishing books but zero dollars on funding science research.

 

[Larniavc]

That's backwards. There's nothing that exists that isn't designed. And nothing builds itself.
A universe of beauty and design has to have a designer.

Crystals don’t build themselves?

What evidence do you have to substantiate the claim that everything is designed.

 

[dlamberth]

He's infinite in every way.

Does that infinite way of God include being in every thing from the smallest atomic particle to all matter that stretches to the farthest reaches of the Universe?

 

[renniks]

Does that infinite way of God include being in every thing from the smallest atomic particle to all matter that stretches to the farthest reaches of the Universe?

I really don't know. My guess is that he's both inside and outside his creation. But we aren't told how he holds it together. Is matter just formed from nothing or did he make it from himself? At least I think that's what you're asking.

 

[Frank Robert]

That's backwards. There's nothing that exists that isn't designed. And nothing builds itself.
A universe of beauty and design has to have a designer.

Something designed indicates that it was planned. Evolution does not plan ahead it just does the best it can with its random mutations and the environment does the rest by selecting the beneficial ones and discarding the detrimental ones. There are other unplanned mechanisms that come into play which make evolution even more interesting.