Is the fundamental gap between creationists and non-creationists...

[SelfSim]

If I were a believer and all you say is true, then that would mean the rest of my family and loved ones who are unrepentant sinners will burn in hell and I will have that knowledge for eternity.

How the bloody hell can you not be sad and have eternal bliss when you know that you are alone in heaven and everyone you have ever loved is suffering and being tortured at the same time?

If you can look me in the eye and tell me that that would not bother you then you are a monster.

It seems the quest for achieving 'Eternal Joy' is more important than those we care for in this life(?)
The sheer terrors, imprinted early in life, also appear to remain in non erasable memory throughout life(?)
Not that it matters: but I, for one, just don't get it .. I know I grew up being trusted by my parents to do the right thing. I apparently didn't need negative manipulation to keep me in line .. I think I must have been born self-correcting or something ..(?)

 

[Bungle_Bear]

If I were a believer and all you say is true, then that would mean the rest of my family and loved ones who are unrepentant sinners will burn in hell and I will have that knowledge for eternity.

How the bloody hell can you not be sad and have eternal bliss when you know that you are alone in heaven and everyone you have ever loved is suffering and being tortured at the same time?

If you can look me in the eye and tell me that that would not bother you then you are a monster.

You don't get it - negative emotions will not be allowed. Free will? No, God says that's how it will be.....

 

[disciple Clint]

If I were a believer and all you say is true, then that would mean the rest of my family and loved ones who are unrepentant sinners will burn in hell and I will have that knowledge for eternity.

How the bloody hell can you not be sad and have eternal bliss when you know that you are alone in heaven and everyone you have ever loved is suffering and being tortured at the same time?

If you can look me in the eye and tell me that that would not bother you then you are a monster.

I believe that God does not send us were we do not want to go. If we do not end up with God for eternity it will be because we made a decision that we did not want to be with God. I am not convinced that hell is eternal suffering in fire, our punishment may well be knowing that we could have done much better for ourselves if we had accepted Jesus as our savior. So if we end up in the company of God or in the company of sinners the decision about our eternity is up to us.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sure. Polygamy was, as you well know, perfectly acceptable in OT.

Right -- and I'm Genghis Khan.

 

[AV1611VET]

Lots of failed prophesies in the bible ...

Right -- and I'm Genghis Khan.

 

[Speedwell]

Moral relativism?You should know the answer to that one.

Not really a moral issue at all.

 

[renniks]

It's not moral behavior, even if it makes sense to you

Lol, what is moral behavior? Without some standard, it's totally subjective.

 

[renniks]

I suggest you learn the meanings of words before you start pontificating. My definition is 100% correct.

2 points here:
1. Nobody was talking about right and wrong. The subject being mentioned was sin.
2. Implying that you only do what's right because God tells you to paints you in an extremely poor light. I don't need another being to tell me how to behave. But I'm very glad you believe such a being exists if that's what stops you going round raping and killing.

Why do you think raping and killing is wrong? It makes perfect sense in a world where survival of the fittest is ultimately the only rule. Sin IS the discussion of right and wrong. We just say that there is a Creator who guides us to what is right and wrong. You have no basis for such a standard in a world created by blind chance. I never said I only do certain things because of a belief in God. I also have a conscience. But look at what we've seen over the last year: people acting like wild beasts in the street, often with very little consequence. No one who is paying attention and was appalled at such behavior can say sin isn't real. Well, they can say it, but they know inside that they are lying. Saying you don't need a Being telling you how to behave tells me you can move the goalposts of what is right and wrong behavior whenever you want. Many do just that.

 

[renniks]

The ultimate authority resides in the majority consensus' meaning assigned to 'wrong' acts/behaviours (etc).

Well, then it can be anything at any given time and how is one supposed to know what the majority believe?

 

[renniks]

I'd like to think that Love is the thing that make survival of the fittest seem wrong. It's more universal in its expression, and no need to argue "my god is best".

Humans can't even agree on what love is, let alone all express it equally.

 

[Speedwell]

Lol, what is moral behavior? Without some standard, it's totally subjective.

How do you know there isn't a standard? It sounds to me that you're just unhappy because you don't get to decide what it is.

 

[Speedwell]

Well, then it can be anything at any given time and how is one supposed to know what the majority believe?

Oh, don't worry--they'll tell you, and sometimes even fight you over it.

 

[Astrid]

Well if it is true then everything that Joseph Smith revealed as prophesy would have happened and that is not the case.

If everything in the Bible were accurate that would be a terrif
boost to its credibility.

Both illustrate how this emotional state of
certainty that "god" gave a message is a fanciful
thing, totally unreliable. Especially for the endless
different interpretations that people claim are the
one true God- inspired correct version.

The man who told me he was eagerly waiting for
Word to start killing atheists fortunately had not heard it yet.

 

[Astrid]

Why do you think raping and killing is wrong? It makes perfect sense in a world where survival of the fittest is ultimately the only rule. Sin IS the discussion of right and wrong. We just say that there is a Creator who guides us to what is right and wrong. You have no basis for such a standard in a world created by blind chance. I never said I only do certain things because of a belief in God. I also have a conscience. But look at what we've seen over the last year: people acting like wild beasts in the street, often with very little consequence. No one who is paying attention and was appalled at such behavior can say sin isn't real. Well, they can say it, but they know inside that they are lying. Saying you don't need a Being telling you how to behave tells me you can move the goalposts of what is right and wrong behavior whenever you want. Many do just that.

Perfect sense? Think about it.
People rely on their social group, much
like other animals.
Monkeys, wolves etc have a complex social structure.
The proto- morality there is essential to survival.

If "fittest" is a term to use, it's fitness of the group, not
the individual. A queen bee cannot even move!

Imagine a tribe characterized by theft, robbery rape
and murder within the tribe. As if it would last long
enough for anyone to discover them.
BTW
"Survival of fittest" is a very inadequate phrase, never used
by those familiar enough with the science to understand it
is facile and misleading.

'Sin" is about pleasing a so- called God,
and ifn it pleses you to talk about it, fine,
but you don't get to impose your choice of
religious notions on others.

 

[Astrid]

Sure. Polygamy was, as you well know, perfectly acceptable in OT. Seems God doesn't have a problem with it - so why do you?

Lack of opportunity?

 

[Astrid]

Is is honest to ask for evidence and then fail to examine it? Refute the evidence if you can but to say that there is no evidence in the link I provided you is simply not true.

The failure of honesty is in the gish.
Denying its a gish is more dishonesty.

If you understand any of what you posted
then pick out a good one. (1).
One fact contrary to evolution is all you need
to disprove it.
Your prob seems to be you don't understand any of
it, for lo, those skilled in the art know there are no
facts contrary to ToE.

But come on just try put out one fact

"Paluxy man tracks" would be excellent if they
were real.

 

[Astrid]

Why should there be any standard of right or wrong if there's no ultimate authority?

Where does "should" even come into it?

Look, members of a wolf pack know you don't
steal from ewvhother, and show other sorts of
proto- morality.
For even the earliest of human societies, enforced
rules of conduct would be essential.
Rules of monkey society sure are enforced!

Right and wrong is about what works best for
society, is it not? People have the brains to
figure out what works.



Why does that need an ultimate authority?

There are no absolutes in morality.

 

[Frank Robert]

Why do you think raping and killing is wrong?

The main reason is the golden rule.

It makes perfect sense in a world where survival of the fittest is ultimately the only rule.

Survival of the fittest doe not equal survival of the ruthless.

Sin IS the discussion of right and wrong.

Sin is an offense against God

We just say that there is a Creator who guides us to what is right and wrong. You have no basis for such a standard in a world created by blind chance.

Humans learned from the time they were hunters and gathers that when there is cooperation there is more food for everyone.

 

[renniks]

Oh, don't worry--they'll tell you, and sometimes even fight you over it.

Exactly.
As CS Lewis put it:
He “is not merely saying that the other man's behavior does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behavior which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: ‘To hell with your standard.’ Nearly always he tries to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard, or that if it does there is some special excuse…It looks, in fact, very much as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behavior or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really agreed…Whenever you find a man who says he does not believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later…complaining ‘It's not fair’.

In other words, everyone has some standard of what they believe is wrong, but it's all over the place. There's no universal standard without a standard giver.

 

[renniks]

How do you know there isn't a standard? It sounds to me that you're just unhappy because you don't get to decide what it is.

There is a standard. It's given in the Ten commandments. If the standard is whatever I want it to be, well, who made me the authority?