Is the Fetus a Human Being?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Whoever supports wickedness is in the wrong camp.

 

[Phil 1:21]

All you wish to do is attack and ridicule my faith with ridiculous assertions and not seek to understand the unique way we do ethics and theology.

Lutheranism is not about justifying anything we do. It's about a God who justifies us.

I know many Lutherans (several in my own family) and none of them have the perverted view of faith you demonstrate here whereby you ridicule a family in grief over the loss of a child and condone the killing of millions of unborn babies for the sake of convenience and money.

 

[The Times]

The stage at which Devine Providence is in play is the very ACT by God to Create Life. A person's reaction to try and cancel it is an act that is by far more sinister than murder. The spark of life that God gives the Fetus is the Devine Providence. It would be like someone trying to uncreate what God is Creating to bring into the world.

Stopping the progression of life is the act to prevent the Creator from Creating Life. The charge is more series and severe than mere murder, it is an act to sabotage the works of the Holy Spirit, an unforgive-able sin, that results in the immediate expulsion from God's presence.

There is no excuse to prevent life, regardless of the situation and Jesus made that point very clear.

John 9:3
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Is the works of God in the Fetus?

If so, then those who abort a Fetus are preventing the works of God from being put on display and this act is a willful act to prevent the Holy Spirit from Creating Life and is an unforgivable sin.

We are talking about aborting the Fetus, the topic is not related to saving the life of the mother. Abortion is something that is now common practice and is an act to uncreate what God creates.

Think about it very carefully before you respond for or against, because your position on this issue may affect your salvation and your relationship with God the Holy Spirit.

God is the Creator.

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Satan is the Destroyer.

We have a world that is siding with the destroyer and giving heed to seduccing spirits that hate our God. Our God who so loves the world, by giving his only begotten Son to be our atonement as the covering.

A Sin that is beyond redemption is one that is Anti-Creator. The word Anti-Creator is synonymous for the word Destroyer aka the spirit of Satan.

When God creates, regardless of situation that leads to the spark of life entering the womb, resulting in a Fetus, the ACT in itself is the Devine Providence, that only God can altar the fate of during the process of life.

For any wilful disruption or rejection of this process is an ACT of war against God.

Who is at war with God?
Who is God's nemesis?

Jesus said the Lord rebuke you Satan, the Lord rebuke you!

Why is it that many are taking the sides of the Destroyer in the times that we are living in?

Is it their time, to be kicked out of the Kingdom of Heaven, to be jotted out of the book of Life, so that they being foolish virgins, thought not that their midnight hour has come to finally confess their unforgivable sins, to the Righteous, Almighty Judge Jesus Christ.

Killing a Fetus is the act of stopping God from doing his work as The Creator. This is where the world is being taken, to a world where the Creator can no longer Create, because natural processes are stopped and unnatural processes are introduced, in a half baked idea from the Father of Lies aka Satan, to have humanity unnaturally and synthetically recreated in his own image.

Jesus did say..."It will be just like the Days of Noah."

God did say...."If I did not shorten those perilous days, no flesh would be left that I Created into the world, but for the sake of the Elect, I will call it a day by shortening those days"

It seems that Satan is tired of being Satan and he wants it to finally end For him. His absurd pretence has gone on far too long and now he wants to bring it to an end for him and the world. The Destroyer, wants to Crash and Burn and so he has setup humanity for the grand fall, his last statement of rebellion against God, through his obscene outburst as the lunatic who God has so demoralised, that he has only experienced embarrassment after embarrassment at God's hands.

People are siding with a looser and waging war with God, not knowing that they are being setup for the Crash and Burn mother of all events, as it leads the fallen to the crescendo of what befalls them for their spite of God's Creative Works.

Blessed are the hands that have given life to humanity, from the very spark of life that God has given through his Devine Providence, cursed is/are he/she/them who stop it.

We are all living on borrowed time. get right with Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ would never allow the weak, feeble, who cannot discern, who cannot see, who cannot hear, who can not apprehend to be savagely removed from seeing life, experiencing life and hearing his gospel and coming into his fullness, from the very moment that God decided to bring life into being.

"God rebuke you Satan, God rebuke you!"

 

[Eloy Craft]

This is a stupid, silly argument. I don't hear anybody of any intelligence on the anti-choice side seriously using it.

God created the child. Do you believe that? If God did then there must be a reason. Not a silly question but fundamental to the issue for a Christian.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

EXO 21:22 NAS "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,

This translation breaks down within itself because the verse already stated there was INJURY when the woman was struck, and that's why there was a fine. For it to add the word FURTHER (which isn't in the Hebrew) is an injustice to the translation. But if the woman dies from the blow then the punishment is "LIFE FOR LIFE". Interestingly enough, this NAS translation came from my computer but two other NAS translations I have in book foorm both say "HAS A MISCARRIAGE".

OH 'consistency' thou art a jewel to be sought for when seeking the truth of God, at the hands of false profits....translators and translations.

EXO 21:22 NIV "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,

NIV is the most poorly translated version of this verse. It was first printed in 1978 and has come into vogue within the church, subsequent to the dramatic increase of abortions in this country in the early 1970’s. Along with the abortion issue came the whole ‘when does life begin’ question. Another question might be…biblically when does one die?

GEN 25:8 Abraham breathed his last and died..
GEN 25:17 (These are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty-seven years; he breathed his last and died...
GEN 35:29 And Isaac breathed his last; and he died...
LUK 23:46 Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.

When does a fetus 'breath his FIRST'? I think the issue is still poorly understood. I'm not claiming I have the answer. But I have questions proving you guys don't either IMO.






gen 25:8, 17; 35:29, 49:33, luke 23:46

I've responded to your post already with the Psalm 22 passages, however, I wish to add another point to consider in the interpretation of these passages you are struggling with (a point I had already made to the original poster). What do you think the intent of these passages are? They would be redundant if not intended to deal with the death of the unborn in my view.

 

[Eloy Craft]

[

The woman is 14 times more likely to die from pregnancy than an abortion. If its unwanted, tragically, the fetus or embryo is an enemy of her health.

the person in control of whether or not to be pregnant is the mother

 

[Hillsage]

If you are insistent upon misinterpreting the the text above you may wish to examine Psalm 22:9-10...it is clear God sees life, soul and spirit already in the womb.

Well I read your litmus verses in 5 different translations. Want to know what three words are not in any of them? So I read the whole Messianic psalm from verse 1. It finally did mention soul in verse 20 in the KJV YLT NAS and RSV. Interestingly enough the Nearly Inspired Version didn't even say soul there. It said "LIFE", and it actually had "LIFE" in the verse twice. Interesting I thought so I studied it a bit. Yes, its my favorite saying come to pass again; Consistency thou art a jewel to be sought for....

NIV PSA 22:20 Deliver my life/nephesh from the sword, my precious life/yachiyd from the power of the dogs.

So my advice to you would be you'll certainly have to study harder to show yourself approved before you can impress me a easily as all your 'agree' and 'winner' followers. I'm a bit tougher to impress, because a pat on the flesh really isn't what I'm driven by.

 

[Hillsage]

I've responded to your post already with the Psalm 22 passages, however, I wish to add another point to consider in the interpretation of these passages you are struggling with (a point I had already made to the original poster). What do you think the intent of these passages are? They would be redundant if not intended to deal with the death of the unborn in my view.

What I think is that there is nothing one can't prove if ones "view" is sufficiently myopic. I also think 'every one is someones heretic' and every false doctrine has an "it is written" to back it up....I think that's what I think...anyway.

 

[ubicaritas]

Indeed the flesh wars with the new creation in Christ. Not an excuse to make bad decisions or base a moral system on failure.

It seems only compassionate in a sinful world to not get ones hopes up about human ability to meet ones ideals.

 

[ubicaritas]

So now babies kill their mothers. We had a saying where I used to work "first rule of holes is to stop digging."

What are the babies (noticed you acknowledged they are babies) using? Knives? surgical instruments? burning chemicals? No that's what abortionists use.

But thank you for admitting (1) that the fetus is a human baby and (2) these babies now have moral agency because they can decide to kill their own mothers.

Women really do die during pregnancy, you know, it's not a joking matter in my mind and not a stretch of imagination to see the presence of the zygote starting a process that puts the woman at risk. It is true it is a small risk among well-to-do people in developed nations, but it isn't insignificant.

http://www.who.int/features/qa/12/en/

Many abortion providers are also are dedicated to women's reproductive health for low income women, for instance, Planned Parenthood. But when "pro-lifers" attack these sorts of organizations, they are putting low-income women's health at risk because they need the advanced medical care to make pregnancy relatively safe.

 

[ubicaritas]

[
the person in control of whether or not to be pregnant is the mother

That isn't necessarily true, as in the case of rape or sexual assault. And at any rate it implies consent to sex is consent to getting pregnant. It's as absurd as saying consent to drive a car is consent to having an accident.

 

[ubicaritas]

A Big Think by a bioethicst talking about Judith Jarvis Thomson's thought experiment of the Worlds Most Famous Violinist. Judith Thomson's argument does not come down to whether or not the fetus is a person, since she assumes that the fetus is a person. But she demonstrates that one person keeping another person alive with their own body doesn't have a moral obligation to do so:

So people that criticize my church for saying that human beings at various stages of development have dignity are failing to realize we don't consider women walking incubators for babies. We believe they can choose to do that, but that is their choice and it isn't a "natural" justification for compelling them to do so, anymore than it is naturally justifiable for men to make multiple women pregnant to propagate their genetic material. Those are things human beings choose to do as a rational creature that is morally accountable to God.

 

[Hillsage]

If you are asking if I ever ordered a subordinate to slaughter a non combatant, the answer is no. It is both illegal and immoral.

Neither did I order nor perform abortions while in command.

I don't consider a fetus a combatant.

As a fellow DAVer what were we fighting for over there? Our country was never under attack. And the Stars and Stripes printed a poll from the citizens which overwhelmingly was on the side of 'us' not being there either....so much for democracy. Any "legal" killing done over there was based upon one thing, our government said to do it. Do you not believe Lieutenant Calley was not just a 'scape goat' for government ordered massacre at My Lai? I saw/heard and was involved in governmental lies personally. And now our government says abortion is just as legally right. Why do men fight wars? Money, loss of freedom, fears for the future. Why do most get abortions? Does that mean 'govenmental absolution'.

Hmmm I do wonder what Jesus will say on 'that day' concerning all these things? Because, as I said much earlier; "The fact that an abortion is even being considered, already tells us something is 'wrong'." Is it a 'sin'? I'm sure the answer is YES! NO! I DON'T KNOW. Since no one else wants to answer me please do; If it was a choice between your 'young wife' and your 'child to be' what would you do? Would you allow double deaths and let them both die? I know I would save my wife? On the day of judgment I truly do wonder just how much of this 'talk' will take a back seat in the realm of what's truly right.

I'm done. Good night.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Well I read your litmus verses in 5 different translations. Want to know what three words are not in any of them? So I read the whole Messianic psalm from verse 1. It finally did mention soul in verse 20 in the KJV YLT NAS and RSV. Interestingly enough the Nearly Inspired Version didn't even say soul there. It said "LIFE", and it actually had "LIFE" in the verse twice. Interesting I thought so I studied it a bit. Yes, its my favorite saying come to pass again; Consistency thou art a jewel to be sought for....

NIV PSA 22:20 Deliver my life/nephesh from the sword, my precious life/yachiyd from the power of the dogs.

So my advice to you would be you'll certainly have to study harder to show yourself approved before you can impress me a easily as all your 'agree' and 'winner' followers. I'm a bit tougher to impress, because a pat on the flesh really isn't what I'm driven by.

Want to know that all life has a spirit and soul? Not trying to impress either, trying to bring light and some folks present themselves as not too very interested in the beauty and logic of the Scriptures, nor are they able to see the forest for the trees.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

What I think is that there is nothing one can't prove if ones "view" is sufficiently myopic. I also think 'every one is someones heretic' and every false doctrine has an "it is written" to back it up....I think that's what I think...anyway.

You should have a chapter and verse of your own to bring out your point/s rather than sounding so very frustrated and aggravated with Bible-believing, Bible-loving, Bible-quoting Christians. BTW, your style and verse are quite telling.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

EXO 21:22 NAS "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,

This translation breaks down within itself because the verse already stated there was INJURY when the woman was struck, and that's why there was a fine. For it to add the word FURTHER (which isn't in the Hebrew) is an injustice to the translation. But if the woman dies from the blow then the punishment is "LIFE FOR LIFE". Interestingly enough, this NAS translation came from my computer but two other NAS translations I have in book foorm both say "HAS A MISCARRIAGE".

OH 'consistency' thou art a jewel to be sought for when seeking the truth of God, at the hands of false profits....translators and translations.

EXO 21:22 NIV "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,

NIV is the most poorly translated version of this verse. It was first printed in 1978 and has come into vogue within the church, subsequent to the dramatic increase of abortions in this country in the early 1970’s. Along with the abortion issue came the whole ‘when does life begin’ question. Another question might be…biblically when does one die?

GEN 25:8 Abraham breathed his last and died..
GEN 25:17 (These are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty-seven years; he breathed his last and died...
GEN 35:29 And Isaac breathed his last; and he died...
LUK 23:46 Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.

When does a fetus 'breath his FIRST'? I think the issue is still poorly understood. I'm not claiming I have the answer. But I have questions proving you guys don't either IMO.

gen 25:8, 17; 35:29, 49:33, luke 23:46

You still seem to be putting way too much emphasis on English translations while ignoring the Hebrew.

The text doesn't say or imply, 'if the man strikes the woman so she miscarries but there is no further injury to her' nor does it imply that the accidental blow of the man against the woman necessarily causes injury to either mother or child beyond the inducing of labor. The Hebrew term strike is used for everything from striking one's foot against a stone, striking a disobedient child (spanking,) the defeat of one's enemies, or causing injury or death.

The text does, however, clearly state that it is about whether or not further harm/mischief is apparent once the child comes forth. The death of the child or mother, and maiming of the child or mother, would all count as further harm.

And I'm not sure what your many verses on 'breathing last' have to do with when the life of a human begins. Low levels of oxygen naturally occur in developing embryos. The 'need' for oxygen actually drives a lot of cell differentiation in early development such as into blood, vasculature, various organs, placenta, nervous system, etc. By week 5 or 6, the umbilical cord delivers oxygen to the cells of an unborn child. The reason people die when they 'stop breathing' is because without oxygen critical cells and organs start failing within minutes. Certainly, the way an unborn child acquires oxygen is different than that of an adult - that doesn't make the unborn child a different organism than his adult self or any less alive. The way we die is very different from the way we are conceived or born as well.

Here are some fun videos you might want to check out which show the 'flash of light' which happens at the moment of conception (Not a literal flash of light that we could see, but high calcium during the fertilization process that release zinc at the moment fertilization is complete. This flash from the zinc sparks can be observed in the lab under the right microscope and with a solution that allows the scientists to see the zinc.):

 

[Eloy Craft]

And at any rate it implies consent to sex is consent to getting pregnant. It

's as absurd as saying consent to drive a car is consent to having an accident.

that analogy would work if the purpose of driving a car was to get in an accident

 

[redleghunter]

It seems only compassionate in a sinful world to not get ones hopes up about human ability to meet ones ideals.

That's precisely why we should be rooted in Christ and not the world.

 

[redleghunter]

Women really do die during pregnancy, you know, it's not a joking matter in my mind and not a stretch of imagination to see the presence of the zygote starting a process that puts the woman at risk. It is true it is a small risk among well-to-do people in developed nations, but it isn't insignificant.

http://www.who.int/features/qa/12/en/

Many abortion providers are also are dedicated to women's reproductive health for low income women, for instance, Planned Parenthood. But when "pro-lifers" attack these sorts of organizations, they are putting low-income women's health at risk because they need the advanced medical care to make pregnancy relatively safe.

No not a joking matter nor is blaming an offspring for the death of their mother.

 

[redleghunter]

But she demonstrates that one person keeping another person alive with their own body doesn't have a moral obligation to do so:

Does not sound Christ like to me.