Is the Fetus a Human Being?

[Eloy Craft]

I didn't say that at all. I believe there are many derived purposes for sexuality according to what human beings desire. Parenthood is only one of those.

I could say that. I think most everyone else could too. The conjugal act has other purposes parenthood is one of them.

 

[Eloy Craft]

I'm not interested in arguments that appeal to nature. Christians who appeal to natural law are quite frankly misguided in this respect. As Pr. Ed Knudson points out, natural law has been mostly a weapon the Catholic Church uses to justify their refusal to question oppressive power structures; it's weaponized philosophy. What is natural is typically whatever an old, celibate, heterosexual person arbitrarily sees as natural, colored by an ideology of human control and regulation. Plus it's fundamentally confusing an is for an ought.

I could respect a difference of opinion on what is natural to human life but not an outright denial that there is such a thing as human nature. I think the reality here is that the obviously natural and unnatural relative to human life, for you, can't define what is good or bad because it will sink your argument which makes human nature clay and man the potter. I can understand that you require that human nature not be included in the discussion. Not because it is something Catholic or false but because you can't shape the clay if it is already shaped. If it's shape has been already seen. That brings it back to the Incarnation of God. Divine and human nature in the person of Jesus revealed fully.

My original post is an honest query.

I truly can't fathom how a Christian can know God entered into a state of being and still find that state of being disposable. If God became an olive tree would olive trees deserve more reverence than before? Would they be any more special at all?

 

[ubicaritas]

I could respect a difference of opinion on what is natural to human life but not an outright denial that there is such a thing as human nature. I think the reality here is that the obviously natural and unnatural relative to human life, for you, can't define what is good or bad because it will sink your argument which makes human nature clay and man the potter. I can understand that you require that human nature not be included in the discussion. Not because it is something Catholic or false but because you can't shape the clay if it is already shaped.

My original post is an honest query.

I truly can't fathom how a Christian can know God entered into a state of being and still find that state of being disposable. If God became an olive tree would olive trees deserve more reverence than before? Would they be any more special at all?

It's more a question of epistemology than metaphysics, in my mind.

I don't think many of us who challenge or are skeptical of pro-life rhetoric consider human life "disposable" necessarily. We just view womens interests as primary. I actually do think after fetal viability we should be very careful in our ethics concerning abortion. I also think that not enough has been done to address the interests of the disabled community, especially in regards to Down's Syndrome and other genetic conditions. But I'm not sure the law is the proper vehicle for that, and not all disability advocates are anti-choice- many are not. In fact there is a potential alliance of sorts between disability and pro-choice ideas when it comes to concepts of bodily autonomy and bodily integrity:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/05/how-down-syndrome-is-redefining-the-abortion-debate.html

Not everybody who is pro-choice chooses to have an abortion. The mother of the child in that aformentioned article considers herself pro-choice and yet she ultimately chose to have a Down Syndrome child. As somebody who is myself disabled and had an acquaintance in middle school with Down Syndrome, I think there is a great deal of undue prejudice against children with Down Syndrome and a lack of appreciation for their humanity. And I also have concerns about human diversity and the impoverishing effects that could have on culture in the process. But that still doesn't necessarily play out into the absolutist position taken by most pro-life advocates that aborting a zygote or embryo is the same as killing an adult or child, at least in my mind.

 

[Eloy Craft]

It's more a question of epistemology than metaphysics, in my mind.

I don't think many of us who challenge or are skeptical of pro-life rhetoric consider human life "disposable" necessarily. We just view womens interests as primary. I actually do think after fetal viability we should be very careful in our ethics concerning abortion.

This part of your post seemed to pertain to mine. Even with household goods there isn't a "this isn't disposable necessarily" on the label. You say you don't consider human life disposable unless human life comes before a woman's 'interests'. Then how is it not disposable?

That seems like typical pro-choice rhetoric. Unsubstantial.

 

[Eloy Craft]

I actually do think after fetal viability we should be very careful in our ethics concerning abortion.

The ancient Pagans put that line of human dignityat the ability to reason. It was not considered a human until then so the child could be sacrificed any time before a sign of reason was seen. For you it's viability. It looks all the same to me.

Care to take a stab? This is the question I entered the thread for.

My original post is an honest query.

I truly can't fathom how a Christian can know God entered into a state of being and still find that state of being disposable. If God became an olive tree would olive trees deserve more reverence than before? Would they be any more special at all?

 

[Phil 1:21]

[
the person in control of whether or not to be pregnant is the mother

That isn't necessarily true, as in the case of rape or sexual assault. And at any rate it implies consent to sex is consent to getting pregnant. It's as absurd as saying consent to drive a car is consent to having an accident.

According to Planned Parenthood’s own research arm, rape and incest accounts for only 1.5% of aborted pregnancies. If we concede the 1.5% are you willing to condemn the 98.5%? Of course not, which is why your argument is moot.

 

[JacksBratt]

That really amounts to empty rhetoric, because the word of God was predominantly spoken through men.

And there you have it folk..... Prophesy has been fulfilled:


2 Thessalonians 2:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,

John 10:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

[JacksBratt]

More Law that always condemns and accuses.

Jesus gave two laws and all laws stem from this:

Matthew 22:37-40 New International Version (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So, how does cutting up an unborn child fit into "Love your neighbor as yourself".

Or with this:

Matthew 7:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

 

[JacksBratt]

All we're talking about here are 'WHAT IFS' just like your quote below;


To which I might just say what if we were talking about Hitler, Stalin, Ed Bundy....the list goes on and on here too. Would the world be better off if their mom's would have dumped the 'bad seed' to begin with? I think you get the point. So just answer my 'WHAT IF' I, or even better you, had to make a wife/fetus decision. I don't have a black and white answer here, but you all seem to, so just answer for God and the others and tell me where WE'D stand in making that 'either or' choice which has real life application. I mean even the PRO LIFER sites admit that it is a small fraction of those in such a mother/fetus decision situation. OK, WHAT IF YOU ARE that small fraction....make your decision and let me know what God thinks about abortion and your decision.

I'm saying that not one should be aborted.. good, bad or ugly.... It is not our place....it is murder... Unless you want a system like they have in the movie "Minority Report".

 

[Hillsage]

You should have a chapter and verse of your own to bring out your point/s rather than sounding so very frustrated and aggravated with Bible-believing, Bible-loving, Bible-quoting Christians. BTW, your style and verse are quite telling.

Actually I do have a few verses for myself. One of the first ones was when Satan physically manifested to me the night I got home after I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. The 'verse' He spoke to me in an instant was "Fear knocked faith answered and there was nobody there." I heard I obeyed and when I turned around he was gone. As for my frustration and aggravation with Bible-believing, Bible-loving, Bible-quoting Christians. ...that is a very good word, you should 'listen' to it.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Actually I do have a few verses for myself. One of the first ones was when Satan physically manifested to me the night I got home after I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. The 'verse' He spoke to me in an instant was "Fear knocked faith answered and there was nobody there." I heard I obeyed and when I turned around he was gone. As for my frustration and aggravation with Bible-believing, Bible-loving, Bible-quoting Christians. ...that is a very good word, you should 'listen' to it.

Those are not verses...it is the Word which is a lamp unto our feet.

 

[SkyWriting]

Wow looks like we need to review the birds and bees here:

I usually state that very soon incubators will be able to take any zygote and bring it to maturity and Pro-Life advocates will be drafted to raise every child. Soon after that, or perhaps before that, men will be doing the job. Every Man who is Pro-Life will have an incubator surgically implanted to receive and carry any unwanted pre-borns.

This time I just jumped to the chase and assumed the message would get accross.

 

[Adi-Buddha]

By comparison, only 35% of those who are part of the mainline Protestant tradition say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, with 60% in support of keeping abortion legal. Members of the Episcopal Church (79%) and the United Church of Christ (72%) are especially likely to support legal abortion, while most members of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the mainline Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (65%) also take this position."
Pew Research
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...roups-vary-widely-in-their-views-of-abortion/
Pew Research is a Christian group. Majority of the Christians interpret that Bible the way I do and support legal abortion. Well, some people have extreme religious views but they should not try to impose their outdated ideas on the society. Let the women make their own decisions about their bodies.

 

[redleghunter]

I usually state that very soon incubators will be able to take any zygote and bring it to maturity and Pro-Life advocates will be drafted to raise every child. Soon after that, or perhaps before that, men will be doing the job. Every Man who is Pro-Life will have an incubator surgically implanted to receive and carry any unwanted pre-borns.

This time I just jumped to the chase and assumed the message would get accross.

What message would that be?

 

[Phil 1:21]

Majority of the Christians interpret that Bible the way I do and support legal abortion.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” Matthew 7:13-14

 

[Kenny'sID]

Based on the text that I quoted I do not see the fetus as a living thing. Thus I am pro-choice

Why? I mean what is your basis for conclusion...please be specific? How do you actually get that from the scripture you quoted?

It basically says if she miscarries, the ones who caused it are in big trouble, a life for life if whatever she is carrying at the time dies/comes out of her dead.

 

[redleghunter]

By comparison, only 35% of those who are part of the mainline Protestant tradition say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, with 60% in support of keeping abortion legal.

Which is not surprising as most mainline Protestant churches have abandoned the Bible as the rule of faith.

Members of the Episcopal Church (79%) and the United Church of Christ (72%) are especially likely to support legal abortion, while most members of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the mainline Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (65%) also take this position."

I believe it!

All of the above also ordain women pastors, homosexual pastors and marry same sex couples. All of the above have abandoned to some degree the Word of God as the rule of faith for either modernism or post-modernism. Not surprised.

Pew Research is a Christian group.

No it is not:

Pew Research Center is a nonpartisan fact tank that informs the public about the issues, attitudes and trends shaping the world. We conduct public opinion polling, demographic research, content analysis and other data-driven social science research. We do not take policy positions.
http://www.pewresearch.org/about/​

Majority of the Christians interpret that Bible the way I do and support legal abortion.

The majority of liberal Christians who no longer view the Bible as the rule of faith believe what you believe. You realize you left out the majority of American Christians in your data?

Well, some people have extreme religious views but they should not try to impose their outdated ideas on the society.

You are correct. You should not be imposing millennia and ages old pagan religious practices of sacrificing the young to get ahead in life.

Let the women make their own decisions about their bodies.

Over 50% of procured abortions on healthy unborn human beings are female. Guess they don't have a say in their own bodies.

 

[SPF]

We are not conservative Reformed Presbyterians or Baptist and we don't pretend to have an entirely logically consistent "worldview". That's not what we are about.

Thank you for honestly sharing this. For me, this really explains a lot. Ubicharitas is actually OK with holding onto and believing in contradictory, inconsistent ideas. Personally, I have more intellectual and spiritual integrity than to intentionally allow myself to do that. But seeing as the link he provided to his denominations position on abortion is logically inconsistent, I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that his own view follows that.

By comparison, only 35% of those who are part of the mainline Protestant tradition say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, with 60% in support of keeping abortion legal. Members of the Episcopal Church (79%) and the United Church of Christ (72%) are especially likely to support legal abortion, while most members of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the mainline Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (65%) also take this position."
Pew Research
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...roups-vary-widely-in-their-views-of-abortion/
Pew Research is a Christian group. Majority of the Christians interpret that Bible the way I do and support legal abortion. Well, some people have extreme religious views but they should not try to impose their outdated ideas on the society.

This is a great example for us the fallacy known as "Appeal to Popularity" It's an invalid way of reasoning.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Also, the clear death penalty in the scripture is for "accidental" killing of a child, meaning abortion was either unheard of or unspeakable and not even used as example here.

Wonder what the penalty would have been for purposeful murder of a child?

 

[JacksBratt]

By comparison, only 35% of those who are part of the mainline Protestant tradition say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, with 60% in support of keeping abortion legal. Members of the Episcopal Church (79%) and the United Church of Christ (72%) are especially likely to support legal abortion, while most members of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the mainline Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (65%) also take this position."
Pew Research
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...roups-vary-widely-in-their-views-of-abortion/
Pew Research is a Christian group. Majority of the Christians interpret that Bible the way I do and support legal abortion. Well, some people have extreme religious views but they should not try to impose their outdated ideas on the society. Let the women make their own decisions about their bodies.

That's just it... "It" is a human being. This human is not "her body" or part of it. She is a life support system for it and no blood passes from the mother to the infant. Only O2 and nutrients.

What about the "choice" of the human inside of her?
The woman already made a choice with her body and let part of a man's body inside of her.... The man and the woman are then both responsible for their actions in creating another human.

It is a sad state of the body of Christ, when the Christians can see abortion as an ethical and moral thing to do.