Is the Fetus a Human Being?

[Ron Gurley]

Psalm 22:9-10 (NASB)
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb

 

[narrowgateevangelist]

May you never have to experience the mourning that accompanies a miscarriage.

I have mourned my unborn. My fiancee when our child was being lost in the hospital pleaded to me.

Believe me I didn't kill our baby. A miscarriage is not an abortion. Doctors tried to convince her it's the same event.

Miscarriage is a giant wound.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Jesus' fetus was a Divine Person at the instant of conception.

Luke 1
35 The angel answered and said to her,
"The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
36 And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age;
and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month.


Elizabeth's fetus/baby was John the Baptizer at conception.

Luke 1
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said,
“Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43 And ]how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?
44 For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.
45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her [af]by the Lord.”

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As Yahweh planned everyone's life scheduling every day,
before even creating the world or anything in it,
and Yahweh provided for every need generously without any lack,

so also every life He grants in the womb at conception
has an eternity ahead, already scheduled, known, and framed and formed by Yahweh Himself.....

if anyone destroys one life, they will face His judgment, if not man's also.

 

[fat wee robin]

The stage at which Devine Providence is in play is the very ACT by God to Create Life. A person's reaction to try and cancel it is an act that is by far more sinister than murder. The spark of life that God gives the Fetus is the Devine Providence. It would be like someone trying to uncreate what God is Creating to bring into the world.

Stopping the progression of life is the act to prevent the Creator from Creating Life. The charge is more series and severe than mere murder, it is an act to sabotage the works of the Holy Spirit, an unforgive-able sin, that results in the immediate expulsion from God's presence.

There is no excuse to prevent life, regardless of the situation and Jesus made that point very clear.

John 9:3
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Is the works of God in the Fetus?

If so, then those who abort a Fetus are preventing the works of God from being put on display and this act is a willful act to prevent the Holy Spirit from Creating Life and is an unforgivable sin.

We are talking about aborting the Fetus, the topic is not related to saving the life of the mother. Abortion is something that is now common practice and is an act to uncreate what God creates.

Think about it very carefully before you respond for or against, because your position on this issue may affect your salvation and your relationship with God the Holy Spirit.

The stage at which Devine Providence is in play is the very ACT by God to Create Life. A person's reaction to try and cancel it is an act that is by far more sinister than murder. The spark of life that God gives the Fetus is the Devine Providence. It would be like someone trying to uncreate what God is Creating to bring into the world.

Stopping the progression of life is the act to prevent the Creator from Creating Life. The charge is more series and severe than mere murder, it is an act to sabotage the works of the Holy Spirit, an unforgive-able sin, that results in the immediate expulsion from God's presence.

There is no excuse to prevent life, regardless of the situation and Jesus made that point very clear.

John 9:3
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Is the works of God in the Fetus?

If so, then those who abort a Fetus are preventing the works of God from being put on display and this act is a willful act to prevent the Holy Spirit from Creating Life and is an unforgivable sin.

We are talking about aborting the Fetus, the topic is not related to saving the life of the mother. Abortion is something that is now common practice and is an act to uncreate what God creates.

Think about it very carefully before you respond for or against, because your position on this issue may affect your salvation and your relationship with God the Holy Spirit.

So Jesus said ,neither the man nor his parents had sinned ,but God had made him 'sick' , in order to teach a lesson .
1) This shows that the disciples believed one could have lived before .
2) That God makes bad things happen in order to teach lessons ,and show His power .
So ,perhaps at least some abortions take place , to teach men not to rape women and girls , even murder them , without being punished .
( Says you, it does'nt happen ,but it does ,or it did ,on an industrial level ,and no one ever was charged .) You seem to forget ,that God punishes ALL criminals ,not just abortionists ,but then you prefer to ignore that and you think it all happens Later some time . But I am sure that punishement takes place as and when God sees fit .

 

[fat wee robin]

It matters. If Jesus's human nature is exactly like our own, does that not inform us on the sanctity of life at all stages of development?

I Wonder do you believe in self defence ,and just war ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

false:

So Jesus said ,neither the man nor his parents had sinned ,but God had made him 'sick' , in order to teach a lesson .

---------------------------------------
totally false:

1) This shows that the disciples believed one could have lived before .

------------------------------------------

So ,perhaps at least some abortions take place , to teach men not to rape women and girls , even murder them , without being punished .

sinfully only, not ever by Yahweh's Direction nor with His Permission.

 

[ubicaritas]

What did Bonhoeffer say about 'the ends justifying the means?'

I'm sure he would have said we should not base our ethics on such. In the case of your post above, you are using abortion as a justified means to combat poverty.

That's crazy logic. Perhaps you just don't understand my perspective.

 

[ubicaritas]

Sure it does. If one is in bondage to sin and death their 'moral compass' will reason on things of the flesh. If one is under bondage to Christ they are led by the Spirit.

Simul justus et peccator.

 

[ubicaritas]

Which is not life threatening. In those cases, they could give the intrinsically morally valuable baby up for adoption. Or, if they're Christians, they could actually have faith that since all new life comes from God, and that God has a plan for all of us, and that God promises to provide for our needs - they could show some faith and rely on Christ.

But for someone to say, "Well, I'm in an economically difficult situation as I just lost my job, so I'm going to kill my 3 year old child because otherwise it'll be really tough on me" - We would consider that immoral and wrong because the 3 year old possesses moral worth and value.

In the same way, the ELCA acknowledges that the unborn baby possess the exact same intrinsic moral worth and value as the 3 year old, and as the mother. Therefore, the only way to be logically consistent would be to say that abortions due to financial concerns are immoral.

We are not conservative Reformed Presbyterians or Baptist and we don't pretend to have an entirely logically consistent "worldview". That's not what we are about. This is just the way we do theology and ethics. We really have more resonance with existentialism in many ways. In fact some have said Luther was the first existentialist in modern history.

Our views about theology are similar in that we embrace paradox and mystery. We accept that life is usually mysterious and full of paradoxes and often provokes an ambivalent response. That's just who we are and we make no apologies for that. It all stems from our Theology of the Cross over a Theology of Glory (humans natural religion or theology). Our ethics is weak in worldly eyes perhaps but this is precisely where we expect to find God. In the weak, the rejected, the marginalized.

I have an excellent resource of Lutheranism 101 here. I regret that I cannot fully explain our approach to being Christian in some 5 bullet points, but that isn't how our faith works:

https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Bible-Martin-Luther-Introductory/dp/0801049172

 

[ubicaritas]

The very first instance recorded in history of 'pragmatic ethics':


Genesis 3: NASB
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

I guess things never change in this fallen world. You and your church seem to want to embrace the fallen world hoping to get a few converts (Matthew 23:15)

You compare us to the Serpent. Cute.

 

[ubicaritas]

We've quickly transitioned from health concerns of the mother to killing unborn babies for economic reasons? I can't wait to see what's next. <rolls eyes>

Which probably explains why he refused to clarify whether or not he feels the value of human life is contingent upon moral agency. For all of his earlier posturing and acting as the self appointed spokesman of the disabled community, he just gave good reason to support killing many of them.

All you wish to do is attack and ridicule my faith with ridiculous assertions and not seek to understand the unique way we do ethics and theology.

Lutheranism is not about justifying anything we do. It's about a God who justifies us.

 

[ubicaritas]

I guess if they contradict their own position people from opposing views can find what they want. This way if someone is pro choice they can point to the endorsed practices and find comfort and those pro life say but the church statement supports my view too!

We support everybody as much as possible. The Gospel is too precious to treat it like a partisan cause and try to have only winners and losers.

 

[fat wee robin]

I see this is about non Christians and how we are to form a sort of Christian ethics based on the ways of the world.

Not be beacons of Light for Christ and His Gospel.

I took a look at your profile and found you were in the military ! Did you ever kill anyone ,or ask anyone to kill if you were an officer ?

 

[ubicaritas]

Which is not life threatening. In those cases, they could give the intrinsically morally valuable baby up for adoption. Or, if they're Christians, they could actually have faith that since all new life comes from God, and that God has a plan for all of us, and that God promises to provide for our needs - they could show some faith and rely on Christ.

We see no clear promises from God in the Word or in our experience, therefore it would be wrong for us to promise something like that. It is a pernicious spiritual confusion we refuse to preach. We are not prosperity preachers. God promises us nothing but a cross in this life. But that doesn't mean we can't help our neighbor carry it and assist them in their struggles.

But for someone to say, "Well, I'm in an economically difficult situation as I just lost my job, so I'm going to kill my 3 year old child because otherwise it'll be really tough on me" - We would consider that immoral and wrong because the 3 year old possesses moral worth and value.

But is it ethical? That's a separate question from morality. Lutherans are primarily interested in our conduct towards our neighbor, not in moral absolutism.

 

[redleghunter]

I Wonder do you believe in self defence ,and just war ?

You mean the fetus as an enemy combatant?

 

[redleghunter]

Simul justus et peccator.

Indeed the flesh wars with the new creation in Christ. Not an excuse to make bad decisions or base a moral system on failure.

 

[redleghunter]

You compare us to the Serpent. Cute.

Have a link to your catechism?

 

[redleghunter]

We support everybody as much as possible. The Gospel is too precious to treat it like a partisan cause and try to have only winners and losers.

This is not about politics. With every procured abortion there are several losers.

 

[redleghunter]

I took a look at your profile and found you were in the military ! Did you ever kill anyone ,or ask anyone to kill if you were an officer ?

If you are asking if I ever ordered a subordinate to slaughter a non combatant, the answer is no. It is both illegal and immoral.

Neither did I order nor perform abortions while in command.

I don't consider a fetus a combatant.