• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Is the Fetus a Human Being?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Adi-Buddha, Jul 16, 2018.

  1. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

    +4,323
    Christian
    Married
    We've quickly transitioned from health concerns of the mother to killing unborn babies for economic reasons? I can't wait to see what's next. <rolls eyes>

    Which probably explains why he refused to clarify whether or not he feels the value of human life is contingent upon moral agency. For all of his earlier posturing and acting as the self appointed spokesman of the disabled community, he just gave good reason to support killing many of them.
     
  2. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Economist & Engineer

    +817
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Others
    Some posters have already said it, and there may have been a response since I didn't comb though several hundred responses, but the verse doesn't seem to support your view. I see the verses talking about pre-mature birth, not an accidental abortion. If the baby came out harmed, then the offender had to compensate... life for life if need be. How could the offender ever possibly pay life-for-life if killing the baby wasn't murder in the first place? Obviously, if they killed the baby the punishment was death. If they harmed the baby, they could be harmed in a reciprocal manner. If they didn't harm the baby, then it was just a fine for hitting the woman.
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +25,139
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    So now babies kill their mothers. We had a saying where I used to work "first rule of holes is to stop digging."

    What are the babies (noticed you acknowledged they are babies) using? Knives? surgical instruments? burning chemicals? No that's what abortionists use.

    But thank you for admitting (1) that the fetus is a human baby and (2) these babies now have moral agency because they can decide to kill their own mothers.
     
  4. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

    513
    +300
    Christian
    Married
    You're right the term 'born prematurely' isn't in the text - it's 'her child comes forth.' Translators that opt for 'born prematurely' as the English translation are not completely off base, though, since the context demands it. The struggle caused her to go into early induced labor at some point in her pregnancy - obviously she didn't have labor as normal. (Unless the fight happened while she was in labor, I suppose, but that doesn't seem to be the scenario given - and would doubtfully carry such harsh penalties since in such a case it would be impossible to prove that his blow directly affected the child.) 'Born prematurely' then is not a literal translation, but fits well in 'thought for thought' translations.

    But the term 'miscarriage' cannot be derived from the term 'child/offspring/fruit comes forth. And the English term for miscarriage, while ambiguous in the sense it can refer to a natural or an induced miscarriage, is specific enough to show that the child either died in the womb or birth canal. Neither of those are demanded by the Hebrew text or context, and so it is not just a poor translation it is deliberately incorrect one.

    Also, the term for child/offspring/fruit is the same used for older children as I already posted. There isn't a distinction here, so any translation that attempts to substitute the term 'fetus' (which refers scientifically only to one stage of a preborn child in the womb) is also biased and incorrect.

    As for Hosea, look at the context:

    "I have seen Ephraim, like Tyre, planted in a meadow. But Ephraim will bring out his children for slaughter. Give them, O LORD - what will you give? Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts that dry up!"

    This doesn't mean Hosea (or God) is pro-abortion. Scripture frequently states that God has the power to open or close a womb. Humans can naturally miscarry, as well. What Hosea is saying is that if the people are literally *sacrificing their own children* it would be better for God to stop them having children at all.

    Which would you rather? Be naturally miscarried from your mother's womb before you ever gain consciousness, or burned alive by your own parents in some sacrificial rite to their gods when you are five years old?

    If God responded to Hosea's request, He would not be dismembering the children or killing them with acid. Rather, in His sovereign power He would be lessening their parent's natural ability to bear and nurse children.
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +25,139
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Apparently so it seems.
     
  6. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +25,139
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Noticed you threw 'unwanted' above. Is that now part of your situational or pragmatic ethics?
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +25,139
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Yes I believe Luther himself said Sola Scriptura or something like that right? ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  8. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    +935
    United States
    Charismatic
    Married
    14 times is an alarming high number, just as the Pro Lifer's "a fraction of a percent" is an amazingly low number. I'm not keeping up here ubicaritas, this thread is moving to fast for me. So I'm going to be skipping to those new 'alerts' tagging me to respond. You have obviously thought out your position well IMO. But as much as I'm missing I can't really say I agree with everything. Oh well, I'm off to a couple more 'alerts'. ;)
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +25,139
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Huh? You mean closing down facilities mainly used for abortion and allowing states to fund women's health clinics instead is denying good maternal care?

    Really, stop the political rhetoric you accuse others of using.
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +25,139
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    What did Bonhoeffer say about 'the ends justifying the means?'

    I'm sure he would have said we should not base our ethics on such. In the case of your post above, you are using abortion as a justified means to combat poverty.
     
  11. narrowgateevangelist

    narrowgateevangelist New Member Supporter

    70
    +60
    United States
    Christian
    Engaged
    When I refresh new posts. This thread is on the first page.

    New humans don't fall out of the sky into a bale of hay. Specific actions must take place before a new human enters this world.

    Copulation between man and woman is default. Woman receives sperm, afterwards a new human is likely. It's simple.

    Asking if the result is human. When 7 billion people are here because of copulation. Is an inane posit.

    What is at the heart, of a statement of within woman's womb inhumanity is. 'If I intentionally end it's life? Am I commiting an evil deed?' Yes, that is an evil deed. Don't do it.
     
  12. buck1hunter

    buck1hunter New Member

    12
    +5
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Why do you think Satanists care so much about this topic? It's not because their civil rights are being violated or their body is inviolable. Most people don't even share their views. So how would this benefit them if they believe in a selfish philosophy? Maybe they're about child sacrifice and just maybe duping everyone else into believing abortion is okay is one way they serve their master? Satan is the Prince of Lies and he's been at it for a long time. I'm sure the people who serve Satan are aware of the legal loopholes when it comes to getting the things they want.
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +25,139
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    This is FYI for all interested. It has been claimed that the opinions of some posters are that of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS). Nothing could be further from the truth. The LCMS is stanchly Biblical in their stance on the sanctity of life. This is their opening statement:

    What does God’s Word say about abortion? God’s Fifth Commandment is clear,“You shall not murder.” This means, in the words of the Small Catechism, that “we should fear and love God so that we do not hurt or harm our neighbor in his body,but help and support him in every physical need. ”God forbids us to take the life of another person,and this most certainly includes abortion. God’s Word also says,“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart” (Jer. 1:5). Psalm 139:16 says,“Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be.” Our church’s explanation of the Small Catechism puts the matter well when it says,“The living but unborn are persons in the sight of God from the time of conception. Since abortion takes a human life,it is not a moral option except to prevent the death of another person, the mother.” The sin of willfully aborting a child, except in those very rare situations where it may be necessary to save the life of the mother,is a sinful act, totally contrary to the will of God.

    Remainder can be viewed (recommend reading it) at the attachment below.

    https://www.christianforums.com/dat...7/285804_f84b73ec5fb5f3ea16eb2b62c4765321.pdf

    Also, for those curious the below video provides a summary of some of the major differences between the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS) and the more liberal Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).



    I'm not Lutheran BTW, but am a godfather for two LCMS children and as such went through the baptism classes which their pastor recommended the parents and godparents go through. So wanted to make sure the LCMS was not grossly misrepresented on their views on the sanctity of life.
     

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +25,139
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I guess if they contradict their own position people from opposing views can find what they want. This way if someone is pro choice they can point to the endorsed practices and find comfort and those pro life say but the church statement supports my view too!

    Everyone's happy...er not really and this is a sign of the times. So sad.
     
  15. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    +935
    United States
    Charismatic
    Married
    IOW 'orthodox' doesn't mean correct....correct? ;) A point I've believed for quite a while actually.

    I did not address the issue as this is not a thread about the soul.[/quote]

    And if a 'soul' is a breathing creature according to the Hebrew, then it would appear that the final knitting together takes place in the womb this is not a 'living soul' until it takes a living breath on its own just like in the Garden? And just like Jesus became a dying soul when He gave up his spirit to the hands of the Father and "breathed His last" or EXPIRED/DIED?

    If a man is spirit soul body as I believe then just exactly when are those three "knit together" into a functioning 'everything ('the whole'/kol) makes a huge difference as to when one is a 'finished breathing biparte or triparte being'.

    Ecclesiastes 11:5 As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything/kol.

    3605 kol: prop. the whole; hence all, any or every (in the sing. only but often in a plur. sense)

    I'm leaving nothing out of my POV, I'm simply not talking to the depths that most aren't even capable of dealing with IMO. This 'medium' does not help either. I say that because I've tried so many times here, with the typical 'no response' to the tough questions I've had. Questions I've spent time in study and seeking of God in order to come to conclusions I have (right or wrong, God knows). This above 'comment of yours' is also one of them. GOD IS SPIRIT, that's what the bible said long after Jesus had ascended to glory with a SPIRITUAL body to replace the "sinful flesh" body his Father had the spirit of Christ from God dwell in, here on earth. (Rom 8:3) Your flesh isn't the image of God nor is your soul....your SPIRIT IS. IMAGE is a substance thing and LIKENESS is a character thing. Adam and Eve were not 'LIKE' God and that's why they sinned by falling for that very temptation from the devil "don't you know that you will be LIKE God knowing." They wanted to be 'like God' for God created that desire within them. Legitimate desire, illegitimate source for procurement of that knowledge.

    It doesn't IMPLY it illuminates that GOD IS SPIRIT and that God put a spirit from His Spirit into some freshly created dirt. God never lived in a fleshly body before creating one to put a 'spirit' which was 'of His spirit' into. GOD IS SPIRIT, always was always will be.

    And you quote the very verse I am referring to. ​

    Now it is you, and Vines that is disagreeing with your former point that there is a separation between that which is physical and that which is immaterial....E.G. SPIRIT.

    A definition which fits with the zao life of oxygen life. But it is not the zoe life of spirit life.
    We are endued with that which GOD IS and that is SPIRIT. He is not some cosmic soul as Eastern religion believes nor is he a fleshlyly body 'devoid of blood' as he appeared to the disciples in his GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL BODY.

    Based on what I presented up post, your quote above assumes every instance of nepesh or pneuma must mean 'breathing' or 'breath.' This is not true as context matters on what words mean in the Hebrew and Greek.

    What makes no sense to you may not be based upon you being right, it may simply be you don't comprehend where I'm coming from. Just like the oxygen in that blood of the yolk sac. It never came from a 'whole person' in the womb. That's why a 'spontaneous miscarriage' births a dead fetus.

    Your question makes no sense to me because my 'inner man' is the spirit given me by my Father in heaven. My flesh came from my father's sperm and mother's egg. My 'functioning brain'/'living soul' which started working/living with the oxygen which came from my fleshly mother came from her not me breathing. My zao life came from mom and dad until I started breathing it myself.

    The only thing that the Word became when it became FLESH was FLESH. The Word didn't become a SOUL or a SPIRIT.

    This is taking too much time again, which I don't have to spend here. So maybe we can just move past this post and realize we are coming from two different perspectives. The depths of which not easily plumbed in this cumbersome medium of exchange.
     
  16. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

    +4,323
    Christian
    Married
    All the itching ears get a big scratch.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  17. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    +935
    United States
    Charismatic
    Married

    EXO 21:22 NAS "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,

    This translation breaks down within itself because the verse already stated there was INJURY when the woman was struck, and that's why there was a fine. For it to add the word FURTHER (which isn't in the Hebrew) is an injustice to the translation. But if the woman dies from the blow then the punishment is "LIFE FOR LIFE". Interestingly enough, this NAS translation came from my computer but two other NAS translations I have in book foorm both say "HAS A MISCARRIAGE".

    OH 'consistency' thou art a jewel to be sought for when seeking the truth of God, at the hands of false profits....translators and translations.


    EXO 21:22 NIV "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,

    NIV is the most poorly translated version of this verse. It was first printed in 1978 and has come into vogue within the church, subsequent to the dramatic increase of abortions in this country in the early 1970’s. Along with the abortion issue came the whole ‘when does life begin’ question. Another question might be…biblically when does one die?

    GEN 25:8 Abraham breathed his last and died..
    GEN 25:17 (These are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty-seven years; he breathed his last and died...
    GEN 35:29 And Isaac breathed his last; and he died...
    LUK 23:46 Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.


    When does a fetus 'breath his FIRST'? I think the issue is still poorly understood. I'm not claiming I have the answer. But I have questions proving you guys don't either IMO.






    gen 25:8, 17; 35:29, 49:33, luke 23:46
     
  18. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

    +986
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    US-Republican
    "A person is a person...no matter how small"...Dr. Seuss

    Human Life begins at conception, at the first split of cell in the egg.

    Job 33:4
    “The Spirit of God has made me,
    And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

    Isaiah 42:5
    Thus says God the Lord,
    Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
    Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
    Who gives breath to the people on it (Body/Soul combo)
    And SPIRIT to those who walk in it,

    Zechariah 12:1B
    Thus declares the Lord
    who stretches out the heavens,
    lays the foundation of the earth, and
    forms the SPIRIT of man within him,(Body/Soul combo)

    Psalm 139:13
    For You formed my inward parts; (Body/Soul combo)
    You wove me (SPIRIT + BODY + SOUL) in my mother’s womb.

    Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH...
    7 then the dust (Body/Soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (SEE: Genesis 2:7)
    and the SPIRIT (ruwach)(breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (SEE: Genesis 1:26 SPIRITUAL image)
    8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity

    John 6:63...Jesus:
    It is the Spirit who gives life;
    the flesh profits nothing;
    the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

    Psalm 33: 4-6 (NASB)...a Song of Praise to the Creator and Preserver.
    For the word of the Lord is upright,
    And all His work is done in faithfulness.
    He loves righteousness and justice;
    The earth is full of the lovingkindness of the Lord.
    By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
    And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
     
  19. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    +435
    Christian
    Married
    If you are insistent upon misinterpreting the the text above you may wish to examine Psalm 22:9-10...it is clear God sees life, soul and spirit already in the womb.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +25,139
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Wish you put this statement up front and early. LOL. Like the conversation as I've spent the better half of the last two weeks exchanging with soul sleepers on another thread. So, perhaps we can bring this up in another thread.

    But your point is clear as a bell. You want to know where exactly in the development of a human being one obtains their spirit from God. If we cannot categorically answer that question as hu-mans then those are the mysteries of God and as such err on the side of His sovereignty by not treating a developing human being as sub-human. It's God's work.

    I would once again offer, that since Jesus Christ followed the same course of human development as we did from conception, that informs us of the sanctity of human life from the very beginning.

    With that in mind, we should also be careful to 'set' what we think is a spiritual viability stage. For who would argue that the truly man Jesus was at some point without a human spirit.

    The truly human nature of Christ was just like our own in every way. Jesus Christ as truly God and truly man had/has two natures but was/is One Person. His Risen body had flesh and bones too.


    No that was not a knock. Christian history shows both views were and are still held. I tend to in these soul/spirit discussions to focus on the inner man (immaterial) and outer man (material) as that is how Paul explained it to his audience.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
Loading...