Is the Fetus a Human Being?

ubicaritas

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And you think Dietrich Bonhoeffer transmits the word of God better than the authors of the bible?

He is more proximate to our times and circumstances. In addition, Bonhoeffer's drew heavily from the Scriptures in his theology, and resisted the idea that natural law or philosophy could substitute for what God had revealed in Christ. He criticized the liberal religion of his time on this point.
 
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JacksBratt

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I love the whole psychology of the term "Pro Choice"... Does the baby have a choice?
Anti abortion is Pro Life.... Abortion is pro death...
It's just a bunch of people trying to convince themselves that they don't have to take on the responsibility of their actions...

OK, so, you say, what about a rape victim?

I say, do you want to kill a child because it's father was a criminal?
Is there not hundreds of families looking to raise children because they cannot have their own?

I can understand non believers and atheists as they don't believe in God or His will.

But... Christians? Really? Do we not believe that all things work for the Lords good and perfect plan?
 
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Phil 1:21

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And you think Dietrich Bonhoeffer transmits the word of God better than the authors of the bible?

He is more proximate to our times and circumstances.

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3-4
 
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Phil 1:21

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Give me a break. The fetus has no meaningful moral agency, it's a fetus and exists in a womb. A woman, on the other hand, has thousands of potential choices in her life.
The value of human life is contingent upon it's moral agency?
 
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Hillsage

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I love the whole psychology of the term "Pro Choice"... Does the baby have a choice?
Anti abortion is Pro Life.... Abortion is pro death...
It's just a bunch of people trying to convince themselves that they don't have to take on the responsibility of their actions...

OK, so, you say, what about a rape victim?

I say, do you want to kill a child because it's father was a criminal?
Is there not hundreds of families looking to raise children because they cannot have their own?

I can understand non believers and atheists as they don't believe in God or His will.

But... Christians? Really? Do we not believe that all things work for the Lords good and perfect plan?

Since my question never got addressed a while back, I'll bring it up again. If, in my younger years I would have chosen abortion, or the life of my child over the life of my wife, would I be guilty of murder or anti life or whatever position you apparently hold here, along with the apparent majority?
 
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JacksBratt

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Give me a break. The fetus has no meaningful moral agency, it's a fetus and exists in a womb. A woman, on the other hand, has thousands of potential choices in her life.
Fewf.... glad that Einsteins mom didn't feel this way. Or Edison's, Alexander Graham Bell's, Jefferson's, Martin Luther King's, Lincoln's, Steve Jobs'.... the list goes on...
 
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ubicaritas

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The value of human life is contingent upon it's moral agency?

We are speaking of pragmatic ethics here, not religious ideals. The two are not the same. We must make choices. The pro-life position obfuscates this and acts like a woman has no real choices, that she's the equivalent of a moral monster if she chooses abortion and that doctor who provide abortion services are little more than monsters who should be punished by law or worse. I find that the real problem.
 
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JacksBratt

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Since my question never got addressed a while back, I'll bring it up again. If, in my younger years I would have chosen abortion, or the life of my child over the life of my wife, would I be guilty of murder or anti life or whatever position you apparently hold here, along with the apparent majority?
Sorry I haven't read all the posts. What was the situation that you had where you had to have an abortion of your child... or your wife would die?
 
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Stringfellow_Hawke

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To me the verse says the opposite of what you're saying. If the child is born harmed, then he shall pay life for life. Therefore abortion is murder.

Luke 1:
41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43 "But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 "For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.


This should end this discussion in every regard. Abortion is murder. Sugar coat it and call it whatever you want. A life is being taken. Period. Not up for debate.
 
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ubicaritas

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Since my question never got addressed a while back, I'll bring it up again. If, in my younger years I would have chosen abortion, or the life of my child over the life of my wife, would I be guilty of murder or anti life or whatever position you apparently hold here, along with the apparent majority?

"Pro-life" folks act like pregnancy is risk free for women, that it's simply a choice to deliver a baby or "kill it". It isn't. A woman is 14 times more likely to die from pregnancy than from abortion. That factor alone weighs heavily in me being against the anti-choice crowd's rhetoric.

That's one reason right there why the pro-life crowd simply doesn't get it. The comparison of a fetus to a baby is way off. A baby killing its own mother would have to be one of those fortean events we see in a tabloid, but a fetus killing its own mother occurs often enough that educated people recognize these risks inherent in pregnancy.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Give me a break. The fetus has no meaningful moral agency, it's a fetus and exists in a womb. A woman, on the other hand, has thousands of potential choices in her life.
The value of human life is contingent upon it's moral agency?
We are speaking of pragmatic ethics here, not religious ideals. The two are not the same. We must make choices. The pro-life position obfuscates this and acts like a woman has no real choices, that she's the equivalent of a moral monster if she chooses abortion and that doctor who provide abortion services are little more than monsters who should be punished by law or worse. I find that the real problem.
Now perhaps you could answer the question.
 
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ubicaritas

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This should end this discussion in every regard. Abortion is murder. Sugar coat it and call it whatever you want. A life is being taken. Period. Not up for debate.

Are soldiers murderers because their vocation might require killing another human being?
 
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Phil 1:21

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The woman is 14 times more likely to die from pregnancy than an abortion. If its unwanted, tragically, the fetus or embryo is an enemy of her health.
According to the CDC, the United States’ maternal mortality rate was 9.0 per 100,000, or nine thousandths of one percent. And based on this you declare unwanted unborn babies “enemies” and support the slaughtering of over 60 million of them since Roe v. Wade?

We do agree on one thing: you don't place a very high value on scripture.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Biblical imagery is interspersed here and there. Its true I don't engage in proof-texting but even an LCMS Lutheran would tell you that biblicism is not a Lutheran hermeneutic, it's not how we do theology.

I draw alot from Pr. Dietrich Bonhoeffer's thought about secularism and the post-WWII traditions of theology that came out of that. Given that is a pivot from Lutheran scholasticism, it might make it hard to understand where I am coming from, I suppose, as a Lutheran.
I am a Lutheran, but I am first and foremost a Bible believer and draw my doctrine from the Bible only...it happens that the ELS and WELS Lutherans preach what I read in the Scriptures.
If you do not draw upon Scripture for your beliefs and practices then you are correct in assuming I will not easily follow your understandings nor can I make you account for them in any meaningful way.
 
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ubicaritas

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According to the CDC, the United States’ maternal mortality rate was 9.0 per 100,000, or nine thousandths of one percent. And based on this you declare unwanted unborn babies “enemies” and support the slaughtering of over 60 million of them since Roe v. Wade?

We do agree on one thing: you don't place a very high value on scripture.

Complications due to pregnancy are the sixth leading cause of death among young women. Furthermore, not all women have access to good maternal care thanks to your "pro-life" buddies in American politics.
 
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ubicaritas

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I am a Lutheran, but I am first and foremost a Bible believer and draw my doctrine from the Bible only...it happens that the ELS and WELS Lutherans preach what I read in the Scriptures.
If you do not draw upon Scripture for your beliefs and practices then you are correct in assuming I will not easily follow your understandings nor can I make you account for them in any meaningful way.

I do draw upon the Bible for my religion, but Lutherans have generally not considered the Bible an exhaustive or universally applicable guide to ethics or conduct in life. Lutherans have always considered ethics separate from theology.

Here is a video by Pr. Fisk who is in the LCMS. He discusses how we are not biblicists and don't really view the Bible as a primarily a science book or a legalist book of ethics:




I don't always agree with the LCMS' tone or approach on all matters but I find Worldview Everlasting a helpful resource to understanding the basics of Lutheranism and how its distinct from other Christian traditions.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I do draw upon the Bible for my religion, but Lutherans have generally not considered the Bible an exhaustive or universally applicable guide to ethics or conduct in life. Lutherans have always considered ethics separate from theology.

Here is a video by Pr. Fisk who is in the LCMS. He discusses how we are not biblicists and don't really view the Bible as a primarily a science book or a book of ethics:

Sorry no time...I judge by the method of our actual church practices.
 
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