Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

[sovereigngrace]

His one and only coming
Wrong yet again: it may well be your opinion that He comes only once more. Multiplied millions of people believe He is coming twice more. Scripture SHOWS US two more comings: one is shown in 1 thes. 4 where He comes only to the clouds and is hidden. Another shows us His coming as lightning where every eye will see Him, on white horses and WITH the armies of heaven.

this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Sorry, but one cannot come FOR someone and WITH someone at the same time. Just so you know, the red and blue text are telling of his THIRD coming - His coming with the angels and the armies of heaven.

That is simply ridiculous. I can bring my wife "with" me to soccer practice "for" my kids. That is a simple truth to grasp for any normal human, if you do not have a faulty theological theory to prove. The text says it. You are fighting again with the Bible. I gave you the wording.

Who cares if 10 billion believe Lacunza's Jesuit invention of 2 future comings. The fact is: it is not in the Bible and you are a walking testimony of that. You (or no Pretribber) have been unable to present any clear evidence to support this theory.

 

[sovereigngrace]

when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed [Gr. apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire
Where are the mighty angels and the fire in the 1 Thes. 4 coming? You have just proven TWO MORE comings. Thanks. He is NOT "revealed" when He is hidden in a cloud.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ I agree, Paul sets the rapture or gathering as the THEME of this passage.

that the day of Christ [rendered “the day of the Lord” elsewhere in the New Testament] is at hand. I agree, Paul used Day of the Lord in his first letter. A better translation of the "is at hand" is that it is present - they are IN the day of the Lord. (They THINK they are in it.)

that day shall not come, except there come the apostasia first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition Yes, true; when someone sees a great departing (apostasia) and then sees the man of sin revealed, all will theen know THE DAY has started and they are in it. This is Paul's argument. The KJV made a very poor translation in their "falling away." It does not fit the context.

Did you notice that in 3b, the man of sin IS REVEALED? (All translations agree.)
According to verses 6-8, that CANNOT happen until the power holding him back (from being revealed) is "taken out of the way."

Since he IS revealed in 3b, then the power holding him back must be taken out of the way in 3a. That is logic. Therefore, the correct translation of "apostasia" is the power restraining being "taken out of the way."

Remember what Stong's says of "apo:" a part of a whole [group] taken from the whole group and removed spatially away. Is not this exactly what happens in the rapture?

In summary, TWO things must happen and then all will know the day has started and they are IN IT: first, the (significant) departing much happen first, and then the man of sin revealed.

Can you fix the HTML on this?

 

[iamlamad]

You made the Postrib case for me. That should have been the end of the debate. After all, Pretrib is bereft on any scriptural support.

Your last "Hail Mary" was Daniel 9:27, which you have previously admitted does not teach either (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ. This is clear evidence that Pretrib are totally bereft any any single proof-text in Scripture.




Where is your Scripture?



I showed you the Scripture above and you rejected it.

Where is your Scripture?

Pretrib is bereft on any scriptural support.
You keep saying this wrong! The truth is, you just don't understand pretrib scriptures. Your preconceptions are too strong. Your preconceptions block anything that could teach you the truth of pretrib.

Question: just so we all know, YOU show us: WHERE is the "trib" delineated in Revelation?

Daniel 9:27, which you have previously admitted does not teach either (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ. Here you go again, on your typical, one passage rampage. how many times must you be told, we don't form doctrine from isolated scriptures - in this case one verse. You should know better! We form doctrine from ALL end time passages. We learn what follows what, and what proceeds what, in Matthew 24 and in Revelation.

Your failure to learn that we must take all end times passage for doctrine rather than an isolated verse proves your doctrines are immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

 

[iamlamad]

Can you fix the HTML on this?

Did

 

[iamlamad]

Did

That is simply ridiculous. I can bring my wife "with" me to soccer practice "for" my kids. That is a simple truth to grasp for any normal human, if you do not have a faulty theological theory to prove. The text says it. You are fighting again with the Bible. I gave you the wording.

Who cares if 10 billion believe Lacunza's Jesuit invention of 2 future comings. The fact is: it is not in the Bible and you are a walking testimony of that. You (or no Pretribber) have been unable to present any clear evidence to support this theory.

I can bring my wife "with" me to soccer practice "for" my kids. True, but you cannot bring your wife to the soccer practice to get your wife. Jesus comes to the earth the next coming FOR His saints: that is, for His saints all dressed in their resurrection bodies! Why do you fight so when proven wrong? Just admit it!

You (or no Pretribber) have been unable to present any clear evidence to support this theory.
Why do you always say this wrong? The truth is, your preconceptions block you from seeing it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed [Gr. apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire
Where are the mighty angels and the fire in the 1 Thes. 4 coming? You have just proven TWO MORE comings. Thanks. He is NOT "revealed" when He is hidden in a cloud.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ I agree, Paul sets the rapture or gathering as the THEME of this passage.

that the day of Christ [rendered “the day of the Lord” elsewhere in the New Testament] is at hand. I agree, Paul used Day of the Lord in his first letter. A better translation of the "is at hand" is that it is present - they are IN the day of the Lord. (They THINK they are in it.)

that day shall not come, except there come the apostasia first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition Yes, true; when someone sees a great departing (apostasia) and then sees the man of sin revealed, all will theen know THE DAY has started and they are in it. This is Paul's argument. The KJV made a very poor translation in their "falling away." It does not fit the context.

Did you notice that in 3b, the man of sin IS REVEALED? (All translations agree.)
According to verses 6-8, that CANNOT happen until the power holding him back (from being revealed) is "taken out of the way."

Since he IS revealed in 3b, then the power holding him back must be taken out of the way in 3a. That is logic. Therefore, the correct translation of "apostasia" is the power restraining being "taken out of the way."

Remember what Stong's says of "apo:" a part of a whole [group] taken from the whole group and removed spatially away. Is not this exactly what happens in the rapture?

In summary, TWO things must happen and then all will know the day has started and they are IN IT: first, the (significant) departing much happen first, and then the man of sin revealed.

I honestly do not know what you are saying. I hope you do. This is as clear as mud.

Frankly: zero evidence + zero evidence = zero evidence. The Pretrib has no fuel to take off the runway.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I can bring my wife "with" me to soccer practice "for" my kids. True, but you cannot bring your wife to the soccer practice to get your wife. Jesus comes to the earth the next coming FOR His saints: that is, for His saints all dressed in their resurrection bodies! Why do you fight so when proven wrong? Just admit it!

Hello! There are saints in heaven with Christ now and there are saints on earth now. So, He must come "with" and "for" in order to unite us in the air. This is not hard to grasp to the objective, honest and open Bible student.

 

[iamlamad]

Where is your Scripture?

I showed you the Scripture above and you rejected it.

Where is your Scripture?

Where is your Scripture? Why not just read it? You know where it is: the rapture is for those IN CHRIST. That is a small percent of earth's population.

Where is your scripture that there are no survivors?

You showed a scripture? Probably a non sequitur- on a different subject!

 

[iamlamad]

I honestly do not know what you are saying. I hope you do. This is as clear as mud.

Frankly: zero evidence + zero evidence = zero evidence. The Pretrib has no fuel to take off the runway.

Like I have been saying; your preconceived ideas BLOCK anything contrary. How will you learn?

zero evidence + zero evidence = zero evidence. The Pretrib has no fuel to take off the runway The truth is, all evidence blocked by preconceptions.

Of course I know what I am saying: it is scripture rightly divided and correctly understood.

 

[iamlamad]

Hello! There are saints in heaven with Christ now and there are saints on earth now. So, He must come "with" and "for" in order to unite us in the air. This is not hard to grasp to the objective, honest and open Bible student.

We all get that part. But HIS GOAL is an completed church, ALL in resurrection bodies. To accomplish that he MUST bring those without bodies to get their body. So what is your point? What are you trying to prove? We all know this.

 

[iamlamad]

I honestly do not know what you are saying. I hope you do. This is as clear as mud.

Frankly: zero evidence + zero evidence = zero evidence. The Pretrib has no fuel to take off the runway.

By the way, now we are learning something about YOU.

 

[sovereigngrace]

We all get that part. But HIS GOAL is an completed church, ALL in resurrection bodies. To accomplish that he MUST bring those without bodies to get their body. So what is your point? What are you trying to prove? We all know this.

Do me a favor: read the inspired text before quoting it.

1Th 4:16-17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (with who? - the dead in Christ") in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

[iamlamad]

The fact is, this is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

If there is a worldwide earthquake, how could anyone escape except if they are in an airplane? Do you not understand, all in an earthquake do not die. This is just a good understanding of English.

Now you are wrong on the timing: John shows it in chapter 6, and you imagine it is the end.

You are wrong on Jesus coming: He comes just BEFORE the 6th seal FOR His resurrected church. By the time the sudden destruction earthquake hits, those who are alive in Christ are being caught up.

WOW! you got one thing right! He DOES come as a thief: and so does the DAY; showing us HIS COMING triggers the start of the DAY. You amaze me.

 

[iamlamad]

Do me a favor: read the inspired text before quoting it.

1Th 4:16-17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (with who? - the dead in Christ") in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I have said it over and over: we all KNOW this. We KNOW the dead in Christ are in heaven and Jesus will bring them back. What we disagree on is what happens NEXT. You have ZERO scripture or proof that Jesus then continues on to the ground after the gathering. Pretrib has John 14 as proof that Jesus takes us to the homes prepared.

 

[iamlamad]

Hello! There are saints in heaven with Christ now and there are saints on earth now. So, He must come "with" and "for" in order to unite us in the air. This is not hard to grasp to the objective, honest and open Bible student.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. As I have said, we all understand that.
What you don't understand is what happens after the rapture.

Here is who I suspect it will happen: God the father will turn to the Son and say, "GO GET MY CHURCH." The Son will descend from heaven WITH the spirits of the Dead in Christ, He will stop in a cloud, will sound a trumpet, and the angel will shout.

1. The BODIES dead in Christ will rise and will join with their spirits.
.....a. God reforming the "dust" of those bodies will cause a worldwide earthquake
.....b. That earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction.
.....c. This all happens during the age of grace, the dispensation Paul told of.

2. An instant later, as the ground begins to shake, TWO different groups of people get TWO different results.
.....a. Those who are IN CHRIST and LOOKING for Him will rise to meet Him
.....b. Those NOT in Christ will suffer the sudden destruction: they cannot escape for it ..........will be world wide.

3. Christ will lead a procession of saints back to heaven where we will wait out the wrath of God there.
4. God the Father will welcome us all in heaven.

Note, Jesus will then spend the ENTIRE 7 years in heaven.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If there is a worldwide earthquake, how could anyone escape except if they are in an airplane? Do you not understand, all in an earthquake do not die. This is just a good understanding of English.

Now you are wrong on the timing: John shows it in chapter 6, and you imagine it is the end.

You are wrong on Jesus coming: He comes just BEFORE the 6th seal FOR His resurrected church. By the time the sudden destruction earthquake hits, those who are alive in Christ are being caught up.

WOW! you got one thing right! He DOES come as a thief: and so does the DAY; showing us HIS COMING triggers the start of the DAY. You amaze me.

Pretribbers cherry pick what suits them. There is more than an earthquake.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-37, “Heaven (ouranos) and earth (gē) shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

The phrases rendered “pass away” in the Greek is parerchomai which basically means “perish.” It identifies the passing of this current earth at “the coming of the Son of man.”

2 Peter 3:10-13: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

 

[Timtofly]

Where possibly do you get that from what I wrote?

Those same chapters about the NHNE that you point cannot fit the next Millennium because of sin, you are placing them in the NHNE. If they do not describe the next Millennium, how can they describe the NHNE? Do you think the next existence is just the same old sinful nature existence?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I have said it over and over: we all KNOW this. We KNOW the dead in Christ are in heaven and Jesus will bring them back. What we disagree on is what happens NEXT. You have ZERO scripture or proof that Jesus then continues on to the ground after the gathering. Pretrib has John 14 as proof that Jesus takes us to the homes prepared.

I have showed you the rescue of all the elect when Jesus comes.
I have showed you the destruction of all the wicked when Jesus comes.
I have showed you the destruction of earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes.

There are no survivors.

 

[Timtofly]

The Two Ages model makes vastly more sense of all scripture than the Premil model/s that people try to draw up (and then guess the return date, fail, guess the return date, fail, guess the return date, fail... all of which makes us seem absurd to the outside world and ironically goes towards creating more "scoffers" of 2 Peter 3).
Dr Kim Riddlebarger describes the 2 age model - the standard eschatology of the church fathers, puritans, Reformers, and great theologians today.
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger

So you would have them mock something else? Or would you prefer just to make friends with the world and gain sin's respect and "blessings"?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Those same chapters about the NHNE that you point cannot fit the next Millennium because of sin, you are placing them in the NHNE. If they do not describe the next Millennium, how can they describe the NHNE? Do you think the next existence is just the same old sinful nature existence?

Where does it state there is sin on the NHNE?