Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

[iamlamad]

zero evidence + zero evidence = zero evidence. Pretrib is based upon man not Scripture.

Not true. Millions see pretrib in scripture. The truth is, you don't. That is on you, not the rest of the church. Don't knock the rest of the church because of your failure.

You seem to skip over the questions.

Do you deny the river of life in Rev. 22?
Do you deny the streets of gold in Rev. 21?
Do you deny the great, white throne judgment of Rev. 20?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not true. Millions see pretrib in scripture. The truth is, you don't. That is on you, not the rest of the church. Don't knock the rest of the church because of your failure.

You seem to skip over the questions.

Do you deny the river of life in Rev. 22?
Do you deny the streets of gold in Rev. 21?
Do you deny the great, white throne judgment of Rev. 20?

Millions believe either view. That proves nothing. Both sides cannot be right. The fact is Pretrib enjoys zero proof-texts. It is an elaborate man-made doctrine.

And no I do not deny the reality of the heavenly city/throne. But they can be figurative terms describing actual realities.

 

[iamlamad]

Millions believe either view. That proves nothing. Both sides cannot be right. The fact is Pretrib enjoys zero proof-texts. It is an elaborate man-made doctrine.

And no I do not deny the reality of the heavenly city/throne. But they can be figurative terms describing actual realities.

You say that wrong, again and again and again. The truth is, You don't LIKE the premil proof text: Rev. 20. It IS the premil proof text. You choose to symbolize it. My guess is, you symbolize the river if life, the gold streets, and probably most everything else in Revelation. Just be careful you don't symbolize John 3:16.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You say that wrong, again and again and again. The truth is, You don't LIKE the premil proof text: Rev. 20. It IS the premil proof text. You choose to symbolize it. My guess is, you symbolize the river if life, the gold streets, and probably most everything else in Revelation. Just be careful you don't symbolize John 3:16.

You keep moving the goalposts when you cannot prove what you are saying. I said Pretrib, but you changed your defense to Premil. I agree Premil has a proof-text in Revelation 20. They have an argument, if you take a hyper-literalist approach to a highly-figurative passage, and also exclude multiple climactic Scripture from the argument. What is more, they totally lack any corroboration for their opinion of that same highly-symbolic passage. Prettrib on the other-hand has not one single proof text to support their theory, and you know it, because you have nothing to bring to the table that teaches what you have been taught.

 

[iamlamad]

You keep moving the goalposts when you cannot prove what you are saying. I said Pretrib, but you changed your defence to Premil. I agree Premil has a proof-text in Rev 20. They have an argument, if you take a hyper-literalist approach to a highly-figurative passage, and also exclude multiple climactic Scripture from the argument. What is more, they totally lack any corroboration for their opinion of that same highly-symbolic passage. Prettrib on the other-hand has not one single proof text to support their theory, and you know it, because you have nothing to bring to the table that teaches what you have been taught.

You talk myths. We have been discussion premill vs amill. Now YOU move the goalposts and wish to talk about pretrib. Pretrib has many proof texts; but one has to have understanding of the scriptures.

The truth is, NO theory on the rapture, whether pretrib, midtrib, posttrib, or prewrath, is CLEARLY STATED in scripture. If it was, what would fill up the hundred of pages in Christian forums? However, one can conclusively find pretrib in the scriptures. CAse in point: John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN (chapter 7) before he wrote of any part of the 70th week (chapter 8). I understand, people that read without understanding will miss this.

Then when one understands Paul in 1 Thes. 5, he places HIS rapture just before wrath. We find the start of wrath at the 6th seal, so Paul places HIS gathering just before the 6th seal. (Did you notice that is just before John saw the church in heaven?)

When one understands 2 Thes 2, Paul gives the same exact message.

This is three proofs of a pretrib rapture. I don't expect you to believe any of them. I know how powerful preconceptions are.

 

[RickReads]

You talk myths. We have been discussion premill vs amill. Now YOU move the goalposts and wish to talk about pretrib. Pretrib has many proof texts; but one has to have understanding of the scriptures.

The truth is, NO theory on the rapture, whether pretrib, midtrib, posttrib, or prewrath, is CLEARLY STATED in scripture. If it was, what would fill up the hundred of pages in Christian forums? However, one can conclusively find pretrib in the scriptures. CAse in point: John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN (chapter 7) before he wrote of any part of the 70th week (chapter 8). I understand, people that read without understanding will miss this.

Then when one understands Paul in 1 Thes. 5, he places HIS rapture just before wrath. We find the start of wrath at the 6th seal, so Paul places HIS gathering just before the 6th seal. (Did you notice that is just before John saw the church in heaven?)

When one understands 2 Thes 2, Paul gives the same exact message.

This is three proofs of a pretrib rapture. I don't expect you to believe any of them. I know how powerful preconceptions are.

The position you are taking is essentially prewrath. The 5th seal is the great tribulation, if what you call rapture happens at the end of that seal then you are saying it happens at the end of the great tribulation.
Then you say John sees raptured church in heaven at Rev:7. Well the multitude Rev 7:9 are those who died in tribulation Rev 7:14.

It`s been awhile but I`m pretty sure prewrath has what you call rapture happening at beginning of 6th seal. End of 5th, beginning of 6th both work as a prewrath stance.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You talk myths. We have been discussion premill vs amill. Now YOU move the goalposts and wish to talk about pretrib. Pretrib has many proof texts; but one has to have understanding of the scriptures.

The truth is, NO theory on the rapture, whether pretrib, midtrib, posttrib, or prewrath, is CLEARLY STATED in scripture. If it was, what would fill up the hundred of pages in Christian forums? However, one can conclusively find pretrib in the scriptures. CAse in point: John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN (chapter 7)

You have (once again) provided nothing. Please quote your evidence instead of your usual opinions. Quote the verses in Rev 7 that teaches a literal rapture of the Church before a 7 years tribulation and before a 3rd coming to the earth?

before he wrote of any part of the 70th week (chapter 8). I understand, people that read without understanding will miss this.

Again, stop voicing your opinion and furnish us with evidence.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

Then when one understands Paul in 1 Thes. 5, he places HIS rapture just before wrath. We find the start of wrath at the 6th seal, so Paul places HIS gathering just before the 6th seal. (Did you notice that is just before John saw the church in heaven?)

When one understands 2 Thes 2, Paul gives the same exact message.

This is three proofs of a pretrib rapture. I don't expect you to believe any of them. I know how powerful preconceptions are.

Exactly, before the wrath of His total destruction, not before some imaginary future 7-years trib. Again, you force what you have been taught into the sacred text. Where are your survivors? Nowhere? Where is you 7-years trib? Nowhere. It is a man-made invention. Again, I do not think Pretribbers read the texts they furnish before they articulate their position.

Jesus gathers all His elect together at His one and only coming and our gathering together unto Him. Contrary to what you impute into 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Please notice the highlighted blue that you have ducked around throughout this thread.

Let us look 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

· Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
· Where are your survivors?
· How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here?

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-4 shows that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” It states: “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed [Gr. apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [rendered “the day of the Lord” elsewhere in the New Testament] is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

The day of the Lord is near, it is approaching, it is at hand.

Once again “the coming of our Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same concluding day of time. Paul is encouraging the Church here to remain strong and steadfast as they await the coming of the day of the Lord. This day, that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will catch the wicked unprepared. He tells the Thessalonians not to be “soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.” This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event. What is more, it is an approaching event that the Church was to prepare for, because: “the day of the Lord is at hand (or enistemi meaning impending).”

We should carefully note that this is the time when the Church is gathered unto the Lord. The coming (parousia) of the Lord witnesses the gathering of the saints – dead and alive. The dead in Christ are resurrected; the alive in Christ are caught up. The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final coming of Christ at the day of the Lord.

 

[iamlamad]

The position you are taking is essentially prewrath. The 5th seal is the great tribulation, if what you call rapture happens at the end of that seal then you are saying it happens at the end of the great tribulation.
Then you say John sees raptured church in heaven at Rev:7. Well the multitude Rev 7:9 are those who died in tribulation Rev 7:14.

It`s been awhile but I`m pretty sure prewrath has what you call rapture happening at beginning of 6th seal. End of 5th, beginning of 6th both work as a prewrath stance.

No, you are mistaken. Prewrath started with Van Kampen and Rosenthal, and that because they were mistaken on the cosmic signs, imagining in error that the signs given in Mat. 24 were the very same signs at the 6th seal. They were very mistaken. Their prewrath theory causes massive rearranging in Rev. to fit.

The truth is, the cosmic signs at the 6th seal come before the 70th week (that begins at the 7th seal) and will be the sign for the Day of the Lord. Here the sun appears black and the moon appears blood red - showing us that here both the sun and moon MUST Be visible.

On the other hand, the sign after the trib' of those days will be the sign for the coming of our Lord, and this sign is total darkness; neither the sun, nor the moon (not even the stars) will be visible.

No, my friend, the 5th seal is the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE, not the GT. First, WHO causes the days of GT? It will be the Beast and FP - and they do not show up until chapter 13. Next, WHAT causes the days of GT? It will be forcing people to bow to an image - or lose their head; and forcing people to receive a mark - or lose their head. Notice that God sends His warning of the consequences of taking the mark in chapter 14, so in truth, the days of GT in Revelation will not even start until late in chapter 14. This is further proven by the beheaded BEGINNING to show up in heaven in chapter 15. So this 5th seal theory is 8 chapters off and over 2000 years off.

One cannot pull the first seals out of their context: did you not notice the context?
Rev. 5:
3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. [This means that at this time not even Jesus was worthy to open the seals. WHY - when some unknown time after, He WAS worthy?]

4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. [notice the emphasis is to get the book open, not the seals.]

5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.” [What did Jesus "prevail" over to become worthy? He prevailed over death, rising out of hell and back into His body under His own power. WHEN did He prevail over death? Around 32 AD]

6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. [What big thing did Jesus do shortly after rising from the dead? He ascended back into heaven - right after telling Mary not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended. Then John got to see the moment He arrived in the throne room, after sending Mary away. WHEN? Around 32 AD. Then notice that as soon as Jesus entered the throne room, He sent the Holy Spirit down. WHEN? Around 32 AD]

No one can find 2000 years in any of these verses - as if the first seal is still not opened - because Jesus began opening the seals as soon as He got the book into HIS hands. That is what this text tells us, and that is the context of the first seals: 32 AD.
Seal 1: the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.
Seals 2-4: the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.
Seal 5: the Martyrs of the church age - told that judgment will not come until the LAST martyr will have been killed.
Seal 6: the start of judgment: the pretrib rapture will have ended the church age, the next moment after the rapture will be the Day of the Lord and the start of judgment.

Therefore, the prewrath theory as taught is completely bogus and cannot be proven with scripture correctly understood.

 

[iamlamad]

You have (once again) provided nothing. Please quote your evidence instead of your usual opinions. Quote the verses in Rev 7 that teaches a literal rapture of the Church before a 7 years tribulation and before a 3rd coming to the earth?



Again, stop voicing your opinion and furnish us with evidence.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

You have (once again) provided nothing As I posted before, ANYTHING that disagrees with your theories is "nothing." I understand: you are right and everyone else is wrong. Your preconceptions are very strong indeed.

Please quote your evidence instead of your usual opinions. Just copying you - all you provide is your opinion.

Quote the verses in Rev 7 that teaches a literal rapture of the Church before a 7 years tribulation and before a 3rd coming to the earth?
What? Are you not able to find the large crowd, too large to number?

Again, stop voicing your opinion and furnish us with evidence. Instead of repeating yourself ad infinitum - since you don't believe what I wrote - then prove it wrong by scripture. It is time YOU provided some evidence. For example, can you prove in 1 Thes. 5 that Paul's rapture will NOT BE just before wrath? Show us scripture if you wish to challenge. By the way, ANYONE can be a forum thread bully. Most choose not to be.

Can you prove by scripture that the great crowd too large to number is NOT the raptured church? Scripture instead of talking, please.

Just so you know, there are MANY OTHER end times scriptures OTHER than Dan. 9. And it is wiser to form doctrine from LATER revelations, and more complete revelations when it is possible. And it is, because Revelation is a MUCH later revelation than Daniel, and is more complete.

Anyway, did you not know that the 70 weeks are for DANIEL'S people, and not the church? Why would ANYONE try to find church related stuff in Daniel?

 

[RickReads]

No, you are mistaken. Prewrath started with Van Kampen and Rosenthal, and that because they were mistaken on the cosmic signs, imagining in error that the signs given in Mat. 24 were the very same signs at the 6th seal. They were very mistaken. Their prewrath theory causes massive rearranging in Rev. to fit.

The truth is, the cosmic signs at the 6th seal come before the 70th week (that begins at the 7th seal) and will be the sign for the Day of the Lord. Here the sun appears black and the moon appears blood red - showing us that here both the sun and moon MUST Be visible.

On the other hand, the sign after the trib' of those days will be the sign for the coming of our Lord, and this sign is total darkness; neither the sun, nor the moon (not even the stars) will be visible.

No, my friend, the 5th seal is the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE, not the GT. First, WHO causes the days of GT? It will be the Beast and FP - and they do not show up until chapter 13. Next, WHAT causes the days of GT? It will be forcing people to bow to an image - or lose their head; and forcing people to receive a mark - or lose their head. Notice that God sends His warning of the consequences of taking the mark in chapter 14, so in truth, the days of GT in Revelation will not even start until late in chapter 14. This is further proven by the beheaded BEGINNING to show up in heaven in chapter 15. So this 5th seal theory is 8 chapters off and over 2000 years off.

One cannot pull the first seals out of their context: did you not notice the context?
Rev. 5:
3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. [This means that at this time not even Jesus was worthy to open the seals. WHY - when some unknown time after, He WAS worthy?]

4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. [notice the emphasis is to get the book open, not the seals.]

5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.” [What did Jesus "prevail" over to become worthy? He prevailed over death, rising out of hell and back into His body under His own power. WHEN did He prevail over death? Around 32 AD]

6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. [What big thing did Jesus do shortly after rising from the dead? He ascended back into heaven - right after telling Mary not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended. Then John got to see the moment He arrived in the throne room, after sending Mary away. WHEN? Around 32 AD. Then notice that as soon as Jesus entered the throne room, He sent the Holy Spirit down. WHEN? Around 32 AD]

No one can find 2000 years in any of these verses - as if the first seal is still not opened - because Jesus began opening the seals as soon as He got the book into HIS hands. That is what this text tells us, and that is the context of the first seals: 32 AD.
Seal 1: the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.
Seals 2-4: the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.
Seal 5: the Martyrs of the church age - told that judgment will not come until the LAST martyr will have been killed.
Seal 6: the start of judgment: the pretrib rapture will have ended the church age, the next moment after the rapture will be the Day of the Lord and the start of judgment.

Therefore, the prewrath theory as taught is completely bogus and cannot be proven with scripture correctly understood.

Van Kampen created the man made term prewrath. The other terms are also man made and relatively recent. The belief that the church will go through the tribulation is a belief that began with Jesus and I`m pretty sure the belief that the righteous will evade God`s wrath also originates with Jesus.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You have (once again) provided nothing As I posted before, ANYTHING that disagrees with your theories is "nothing." I understand: you are right and everyone else is wrong. Your preconceptions are very strong indeed.

Please quote your evidence instead of your usual opinions. Just copying you - all you provide is your opinion.

Quote the verses in Rev 7 that teaches a literal rapture of the Church before a 7 years tribulation and before a 3rd coming to the earth?
What? Are you not able to find the large crowd, too large to number?

Again, stop voicing your opinion and furnish us with evidence. Instead of repeating yourself ad infinitum - since you don't believe what I wrote - then prove it wrong by scripture. It is time YOU provided some evidence. For example, can you prove in 1 Thes. 5 that Paul's rapture will NOT BE just before wrath? Show us scripture if you wish to challenge. By the way, ANYONE can be a forum thread bully. Most choose not to be.

Can you prove by scripture that the great crowd too large to number is NOT the raptured church? Scripture instead of talking, please.

I just presented a thorough commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-4 and you totally avoided it. Why? It totally refutes Pretrib theory. You have no answer to it. This is typical Pretrib avoidance. They then continue as if those verses and arguments do not exist. But they do.

Where does it mention the word Church and where does it mention a rapture in Revelation 7?

Just so you know, there are MANY OTHER end times scriptures OTHER than Dan. 9. And it is wiser to form doctrine from LATER revelations, and more complete revelations when it is possible. And it is, because Revelation is a MUCH later revelation than Daniel, and is more complete.

Anyway, did you not know that the 70 weeks are for DANIEL'S people, and not the church? Why would ANYONE try to find church related stuff in Daniel?

Daniel 9 was fulfilled a long time ago. He decapitate the 70 weeks without any warrant are propel the last 7 years into the unknown. This butchers the harmonious time-period and negates everything that was been said of the Messiah.

The only 'seven years' passage that you bring to the table (namely Daniel 9) makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture, seven-year tribulation, or third coming. It has to be forced into the sacred text. What is more, you have to rip it out of its historical context and propel it into the unknown, without any hermeneutical grounds to do so, and apply it to some imaginary '7-year' age in the future.

Scripture forbids your theory.

Daniel 9 was fulfilled a long time ago. You decapitate the 70 weeks without any warrant are propel the last 7 years into the unknown. This butchers the harmonious time-period and negates everything that was been said of the Messiah.

The only 'seven years' passage that you bring to the table (namely Daniel 9) makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture, seven-year tribulation, or third coming. It has to be forced into the sacred text. What is more, you have to rip it out of its historical context and propel it into the unknown, without any hermeneutical grounds to do so, and apply it to some imaginary '7-year' age in the future.

Scripture forbids your theory.

 

[iamlamad]

Exactly, before the wrath of His total destruction, not before some imaginary future 7-years trib. Again, you force what you have been taught into the sacred text. Where are your survivors? Nowhere? Where is you 7-years trib? Nowhere. It is a man-made invention. Again, I do not think Pretribbers read the texts they furnish before they articulate their position.

before the wrath of His total destruction how amazing you have to add your opinion.
WHO SAID The Day of the Lord (as started at the 6th seal) is "the wrath of His total destruction?" Agreed, the Day of the Lord will be God systematically destroying the earth and the sinners on the earth: that is OT. And we see the start of that destruction in the trumpet judgments, then more in the vial judgments. Paul told us that the Day of the Lord (NOT "total destruction") will start after the departing (apostasia) comes first and the man of sin is revealed. Then all will know the Day has started and they are in it.

Now, let's rehearse: What comes first? Ah! The departing, translated from Apostasia. Did you not know that of APO, the first part of that Greek compound word, Strong's tells us it can mean a PART of a whole group take from that whole group and moves spacially to another location. The second part of that compound word is where we get our word stationary - as in not moving. It is absolute truth that at the rapture a PART of a whole group will be "taken out of the way" and moved to a different location, and it happen SO FAST that the rest of the whole group will apppear to have been stationary.

So Paul in His first letter tells us rapture before wrath, and He tells us the same thing in his second letter. It is no mistake then that John saw the raptured church in heaven shortly after the start of Wrath in Revelation. It all FITS.

Again, you force what you have been taught into the sacred text. No, I understand it. Perhaps the problem is, you don't. I doubt if you question that John saw a great crowd, too large to number. But since you symbolize everything, who knows what anyone can come up with in that case? You will probably argue that is it not the raptured church, but some other group. Just so you know, I am taught by the Holy Spirit. What I wrote I did not hear in a church. It came from the scriptures.

Where are your survivors? Why bring up survivors? How about all those left behind? The sudden destruction that will hit at the same moment as those in Christ are caught up will not kill the rest of the population. There is going to be MANY who will take the mark.

Where is you 7-years trib? It is from the 7th seal to the 7th vial, clearly marked in God's word. Can you prove otherwise? Why not call it the 70th week?

Nowhere. It is a man-made invention. You are mistaken yet again...you are making it a habit. The truth is, your preconceptions are robbing you of the truth of many scriptures.

Look, if you wish to be left behind, I don't care. That is between you and God. If you wish to face the beast and lose your head, I believe God will honor your faith. I only have one question: why not BELIEVE Luke 21:36 and pray to be found worthy to ESCAPE what is coming? Why lose your head when God has made a way of escape?

I do not think posttribbers, or prewrathers understand the texts they furnish before they articulate their position.

 

[iamlamad]

Van Kampen created the man made term prewrath. The other terms are also man made and relatively recent. The belief that the church will go through the tribulation is a belief that began with Jesus and I`m pretty sure the belief that the righteous will evade God`s wrath also originates with Jesus.

Sorry, but Jesus never articulated such a belief. in fact, He spoke very little of the Gentile church of today. He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. God waited a sufficient time for Israel as a nation to accept Him as their Messiah. When they refused, He sent out Paul to call the Gentiles in.

Perhaps we should define "church." Did you mean the church of today - the body of Christ on earth? It was certainly the words of Jesus that Luke wrote, showing His escape plan. (Luke 21:36)

 

[sovereigngrace]

before the wrath of His total destruction how amazing you have to add your opinion.
WHO SAID The Day of the Lord (as started at the 6th seal) is "the wrath of His total destruction?" Agreed, the Day of the Lord will be God systematically destroying the earth and the sinners on the earth: that is OT. And we see the start of that destruction in the trumpet judgments, then more in the vial judgments. Paul told us that the Day of the Lord (NOT "total destruction") will start after the departing (apostasia) comes first and the man of sin is revealed. Then all will know the Day has started and they are in it.

Now, let's rehearse: What comes first? Ah! The departing, translated from Apostasia. Did you not know that of APO, the first part of that Greek compound word, Strong's tells us it can mean a PART of a whole group take from that whole group and moves spacially to another location. The second part of that compound word is where we get our word stationary - as in not moving. It is absolute truth that at the rapture a PART of a whole group will be "taken out of the way" and moved to a different location, and it happen SO FAST that the rest of the whole group will apppear to have been stationary.

So Paul in His first letter tells us rapture before wrath, and He tells us the same thing in his second letter. It is no mistake then that John saw the raptured church in heaven shortly after the start of Wrath in Revelation. It all FITS.

Again, you force what you have been taught into the sacred text. No, I understand it. Perhaps the problem is, you don't. I doubt if you question that John saw a great crowd, too large to number. But since you symbolize everything, who knows what anyone can come up with in that case? You will probably argue that is it not the raptured church, but some other group. Just so you know, I am taught by the Holy Spirit. What I wrote I did not hear in a church. It came from the scriptures.

Where are your survivors? Why bring up survivors? How about all those left behind? The sudden destruction that will hit at the same moment as those in Christ are caught up will not kill the rest of the population. There is going to be MANY who will take the mark.

Where is you 7-years trib? It is from the 7th seal to the 7th vial, clearly marked in God's word. Can you prove otherwise? Why not call it the 70th week?

Nowhere. It is a man-made invention. You are mistaken yet again...you are making it a habit. The truth is, your preconceptions are robbing you of the truth of many scriptures.

Look, if you wish to be left behind, I don't care. That is between you and God. If you wish to face the beast and lose your head, I believe God will honor your faith. I only have one question: why not BELIEVE Luke 21:36 and pray to be found worthy to ESCAPE what is coming? Why lose your head when God has made a way of escape?

I do not think posttribbers, or prewrathers understand the texts they furnish before they articulate their position.

When are you actually going to address the scriptural arguments? The reasons why Pretribbers run from the sacred text is because it exposes their man-made theory. It is because it is a false Jesuit doctrine designed to infiltrate evangelical Protestantism, confuse and divide. Your fight is with Holy Writ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

before the wrath of His total destruction how amazing you have to add your opinion.
WHO SAID The Day of the Lord (as started at the 6th seal) is "the wrath of His total destruction?" Agreed, the Day of the Lord will be God systematically destroying the earth and the sinners on the earth: that is OT. And we see the start of that destruction in the trumpet judgments, then more in the vial judgments. Paul told us that the Day of the Lord (NOT "total destruction") will start after the departing (apostasia) comes first and the man of sin is revealed. Then all will know the Day has started and they are in it.

Now, let's rehearse: What comes first? Ah! The departing, translated from Apostasia. Did you not know that of APO, the first part of that Greek compound word, Strong's tells us it can mean a PART of a whole group take from that whole group and moves spacially to another location. The second part of that compound word is where we get our word stationary - as in not moving. It is absolute truth that at the rapture a PART of a whole group will be "taken out of the way" and moved to a different location, and it happen SO FAST that the rest of the whole group will apppear to have been stationary.

So Paul in His first letter tells us rapture before wrath, and He tells us the same thing in his second letter. It is no mistake then that John saw the raptured church in heaven shortly after the start of Wrath in Revelation. It all FITS.

Again, you force what you have been taught into the sacred text. No, I understand it. Perhaps the problem is, you don't. I doubt if you question that John saw a great crowd, too large to number. But since you symbolize everything, who knows what anyone can come up with in that case? You will probably argue that is it not the raptured church, but some other group. Just so you know, I am taught by the Holy Spirit. What I wrote I did not hear in a church. It came from the scriptures.

Where are your survivors? Why bring up survivors? How about all those left behind? The sudden destruction that will hit at the same moment as those in Christ are caught up will not kill the rest of the population. There is going to be MANY who will take the mark.

Where is you 7-years trib? It is from the 7th seal to the 7th vial, clearly marked in God's word. Can you prove otherwise? Why not call it the 70th week?

Nowhere. It is a man-made invention. You are mistaken yet again...you are making it a habit. The truth is, your preconceptions are robbing you of the truth of many scriptures.

Look, if you wish to be left behind, I don't care. That is between you and God. If you wish to face the beast and lose your head, I believe God will honor your faith. I only have one question: why not BELIEVE Luke 21:36 and pray to be found worthy to ESCAPE what is coming? Why lose your head when God has made a way of escape?

I do not think posttribbers, or prewrathers understand the texts they furnish before they articulate their position.

Are there any believers in your supposed future 7-years tribulation after "your Pretrib rapture"?

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus gathers all His elect together at His one and only coming and our gathering together unto Him. Contrary to what you impute into 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Please notice the highlighted blue that you have ducked around throughout this thread.

His one and only coming
Wrong yet again: it may well be your opinion that He comes only once more. Multiplied millions of people believe He is coming twice more. Scripture SHOWS US two more comings: one is shown in 1 thes. 4 where He comes only to the clouds and is hidden. Another shows us His coming as lightning where every eye will see Him, on white horses and WITH the armies of heaven.

this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Sorry, but one cannot come FOR someone and WITH someone at the same time. Just so you know, the red and blue text are telling of his THIRD coming - His coming with the angels and the armies of heaven.

 

[sovereigngrace]

His one and only coming
Wrong yet again: it may well be your opinion that He comes only once more. Multiplied millions of people believe He is coming twice more. Scripture SHOWS US two more comings: one is shown in 1 thes. 4 where He comes only to the clouds and is hidden. Another shows us His coming as lightning where every eye will see Him, on white horses and WITH the armies of heaven.

this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Sorry, but one cannot come FOR someone and WITH someone at the same time. Just so you know, the red and blue text are telling of his THIRD coming - His coming with the angels and the armies of heaven.

Who cares if 10 billion believe Lacunza's Jesuit invention of 2 future comings. The fact is: it is not in the Bible and you are a walking testimony of that. You (or no Pretribber) have been unable to present any clear evidence to support this theory.

That is simply ridiculous. I can bring my wife "with" me to school "for" my kids. That is a simple truth to grasp, if you do not have a faulty theological theory to prove. The text says it. You are fighting again with the Bible. I gave you the. wording.

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. 1 Thess 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

The fact is, this is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

 

[iamlamad]

Let us look 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

· Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
· Where are your survivors?
· How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here?

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (c), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage? How many times have I said this in this and other threads: WE DON'T form doctrine from an isolated verse! We form doctrine from ALL end times scriptures. In other words, why ask this question? Do you doubt there is a 7 year period of time? If you doubt it, go back and read Daniel 9. Try verse 27.

Where are your survivors? Back that this question again? EVERYONE left behind - multiplied millions - billions will be left behind. ONLY those in Christ will be raptured. Why do you ask such questions? Are you here to learn?

climactic and wholesale destruction here? Show is the individual words where you get this idea, and then I will show you that you must be symbolizing again - imagining a verse saying what it does not say.

Look, the rapture will TRIGGER the start of the Day. But it is only the START of the Day. At the rapture there will be a worldwide earthquake. But this quake will not kill the world's population. There will be multiplied millions who will take the mark later.

I will try one of your tricks:
SHOW US that that Christ is coming “with” His saints" in this passage!
SHOW US that after the gathering in the air, we all return to earth in this passage.

He is only coming with the saints who have died, and them only in spirit form - so He is coming with SOME of His saints. They are coming to get there new bodies. It will take BOTH GROUPS to make up the raptured church.

In contrast, when He comes to Armageddon, He will come with ALL His saints.

. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).
I agree with this part. What we disagree on in WHEN. Paul teaches us it will be just before wrath. John confirms that with the great crowd in heaven seen shortly after.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How many times have I said this in this and other threads: WE DON'T form doctrine from an isolated verse! We form doctrine from ALL end times scriptures. In other words, why ask this question? Do you doubt there is a 7 year period of time? If you doubt it, go back and read Daniel 9. Try verse 27.

You made the Postrib case for me. That should have been the end of the debate. After all, Pretrib is bereft on any scriptural support.

Your last "Hail Mary" was Daniel 9:27, which you have previously admitted does not teach either (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ. This is clear evidence that Pretrib are totally bereft any any single proof-text in Scripture. Your failure to provide anything proves that this is an extra-biblical man-made doctrine, as the rest of us believe.

Back that this question again? EVERYONE left behind - multiplied millions - billions will be left behind. ONLY those in Christ will be raptured. Why do you ask such questions? Are you here to learn?

Where is your Scripture?

Show is the individual words where you get this idea, and then I will show you that you must be symbolizing again - imagining a verse saying what it does not say.

Look, the rapture will TRIGGER the start of the Day. But it is only the START of the Day. At the rapture there will be a worldwide earthquake. But this quake will not kill the world's population. There will be multiplied millions who will take the mark later.

I will try one of your tricks:
SHOW US that that Christ is coming “with” His saints" in this passage!
SHOW US that after the gathering in the air, we all return to earth in this passage.

He is only coming with the saints who have died, and them only in spirit form - so He is coming with SOME of His saints. They are coming to get there new bodies. It will take BOTH GROUPS to make up the raptured church.

In contrast, when He comes to Armageddon, He will come with ALL His saints.

. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).
I agree with this part. What we disagree on in WHEN. Paul teaches us it will be just before wrath. John confirms that with the great crowd in heaven seen shortly after.

I showed you the Scripture above and you rejected it.

Where is your Scripture?

 

[iamlamad]

2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-4 shows that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” It states: “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed [Gr. apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ [Gr. episunagoge– originating from episunago] unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [rendered “the day of the Lord” elsewhere in the New Testament] is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed [Gr. apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire
Where are the mighty angels and the fire in the 1 Thes. 4 coming? You have just proven TWO MORE comings. Thanks. He is NOT "revealed" when He is hidden in a cloud.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our ‘gathering together’ I agree, Paul sets the rapture or gathering as the THEME of this passage.

that the day of Christ [rendered “the day of the Lord” elsewhere in the New Testament] is at hand. I agree, Paul used Day of the Lord in his first letter. A better translation of the "is at hand" is that it is present - they are IN the day of the Lord. (They THINK they are in it.)

that day shall not come, except there come the apostasia first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition Yes, true; when someone sees a great departing (apostasia) and then sees the man of sin revealed, all will theen know THE DAY has started and they are in it. This is Paul's argument. The KJV made a very poor translation in their "falling away." It does not fit the context.

Did you notice that in 3b, the man of sin IS REVEALED? (All translations agree.)
According to verses 6-8, that CANNOT happen until the power holding him back (from being revealed) is "taken out of the way."

Since he IS revealed in 3b, then the power holding him back must be taken out of the way in 3a. That is logic. Therefore, the correct translation of "apostasia" is the power restraining being "taken out of the way."

Remember what Stong's says of "apo:" a part of a whole [group] taken from the whole group and removed spatially away. Is not this exactly what happens in the rapture?

In summary, TWO things must happen and then all will know the day has started and they are IN IT: first, the (significant) departing much happen first, and then the man of sin revealed.