Is the Book of Revelation the only place in Scripture teaching eternal torment?

[Kilk1]

Again assuming that Jesus meant what He said and said what He meant. Chaff is the outer husk of wheat, oats, barley etc. It is not edible it is threshed out and discarded usually burned. I understand it as that part of us that is not suitable, useful etc. and it has to be removed. Bad thoughts, bad ideas, old habits etc. OTOH tares are a completely different plant altogether.

I see. So you wouldn't say it's bad people that are burned up, but bad ideas, habits, etc. Could it be that both are burned up? In Matthew 13:41-42, Jesus says, "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those [people] who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (NKJV, emphasis added). Would you agree with this observation?

As for Revelation, would you agree that Revelation 21:4 does not apply to the wicked since it speaks of times without sorrow or pain? After all, the torment of Revelation 21:8 would certainly involve sorrow and pain, right?

 

[Kilk1]

Wrong parameter. . .nothing is ever about God's power, everything is about God's will. . .in this case,
his will of 2 Corinthians 5:8; i.e., for the believer, the spirit's absence from the body is its presence with the Lord, not its death.

I see. In that case, would we agree that any immortality we may ascribe to the human soul doesn't override God's will? 2 Corinthians 5:8's statement about believers makes sense in light of Matthew 10:28, since men can't kill the soul, only the body. However, would we agree that God, in contrast to man, "is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28, NKJV, emphasis added)?

 

[FineLinen]

Why now, after two thousand years, do we need to begin interpreting something any differently than it always has been?

It is high time to speak of the Father of all fathers in terms that reflect His wonderful Person!

 

[Der Alte]

I see. So you wouldn't say it's bad people that are burned up, but bad ideas, habits, etc. Could it be that both are burned up? In Matthew 13:41-42, Jesus says, "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those [people] who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (NKJV, emphasis added). Would you agree with this observation?
As for Revelation, would you agree that Revelation 21:4 does not apply to the wicked since it speaks of times without sorrow or pain? After all, the torment of Revelation 21:8 would certainly involve sorrow and pain, right?

Correct. When Jesus mentions tares he is talking about people, when He mentions chaff, I understand that to mean that part of us that needs to be removed. In the LOF there will be pain etc. but no death. according to Rev 20:10

Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [a person] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

 

[Andrewn]

Perhaps both wicked things and wicked people will be burned up. In Matthew 13:41-42, Jesus says, "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those [people] who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (NKJV, emphasis added). Would you agree with this observation, given your combination of all three positions?

Yes, certainly, but this does not say that those who practice lawlessness will be consumed by fire. But again, a few might. I don't think the Bible is interested in explaining all details about the fate of the unrighteous. I'm comfortable w/ uncertainty.

 

[FineLinen]

Yes, certainly, but this does not say that those who practice lawlessness will be consumed by fire. But again, a few might.

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire."

NOTE:

Loss, but salvation through the Fire.

 

[Clare73]

I see. In that case, would we agree that any immortality we may ascribe to the human soul doesn't override God's will? 2 Corinthians 5:8's statement about believers makes sense in light of Matthew 10:28, since men can't kill the soul, only the body. However, would we agree that God, in contrast to man, "is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28, NKJV, emphasis added)?

I am speaking of the human spirit.
Soul and spirit are not presented as the same thing in the NT (Hebrews 4:12).

 

[DavidPT]

In the LOF there will be pain etc. but no death. according to Rev 20:10

Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [a person] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

But you only used verse 10 to make your argument while ignoring verses 12-15. Verse 10 is not the same judgment as verses 12-15. Verses 12-15 involve death, yet you say there is no death. If the 2nd death is not death, what is it then? Why call it death if it really means life instead? Why didn't the text simply say this is the second life if that is what it is ultimately meaning?

If you disagree these are different judgments, then point out in verse 10 where it ever mentions any humans, point out in verses 12-15 where it shows satan standing among the dead and being judged according to works. Point out in verse 10 where it ever calls that the 2nd death. Point out in verses 12-15 where it ever says this of anyone in those verses--and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[DavidPT]

It doesn't have to mention it in every verse. We already see the fate of the Beast (Antichrist, a literal man) and the False Prophet (also a literal man):

The beast and fp aside since it's debatable as to whether they are literal men or not. Since Revelation 20:10 also involves satan, we already know he's not a literal man. So let's consider some of these things with satan in mind.

That is not a reasonable argument at all, that it doesn't have to mention it in every verse, and here are some reasons why.


A) Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


B) Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Involving B), the following is never said to be the fate of any of these---and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. But let's just ignore that fact and pretend it doesn't matter. John didn't need to mention that in those verses since he already mentioned that in verse 10. Therefore, what is recorded in verse 10 also applies to what is recorded in verses 12-15.

If that is true, and the fact John didn't mention the 2nd death in verse 10, let's just ignore that fact and pretend that doesn't matter either. John didn't need to mention that in this verse since he mentioned that in verses 12-15. Therefore, what is recorded in verses 12-15 also applies to what is recorded in verse 10.

Which then means this. A 2nd death obviously implies a first death. In order to experience a 2nd death requires that one has to first experience a first death. Now one has to logically explain how satan, a being that has never died since being created, experienced a first death in order to experience a 2nd death.

It would be cherry picking to not apply the 2nd death to verse 10, but apply 'shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever' to that of verses 12-15. The only way to avoid cherry picking since the 2nd death undeniably can't be applied to satan, neither can 'shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever' be applied to that of verses 12-15.

 

[Der Alte]

But you only used verse 10 to make your argument while ignoring verses 12-15. Verse 10 is not the same judgment as verses 12-15. Verses 12-15 involve death, yet you say there is no death. If the 2nd death is not death, what is it then? Why call it death if it really means life instead? Why didn't the text simply say this is the second life if that is what it is ultimately meaning?
If you disagree these are different judgments, then point out in verse 10 where it ever mentions any humans, point out in verses 12-15 where it shows satan standing among the dead and being judged according to works. Point out in verse 10 where it ever calls that the 2nd death. Point out in verses 12-15 where it ever says this of anyone in those verses--and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If you want death to be there then I guess for you death is there. Instead of picking at individual vss. Here are The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.2 ​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence. There is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

My name for these two sentient beings is, “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Others can feel free to call them whatever they want. The 2 beings are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….Additional verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still called] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

The last chapter of the Bible, Rev. 22:11., 10 more vss. No salvation, no destruction, no death, only “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.”

Matthew 8:22
(22) But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Luke 9:60
(60) Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.​

 

[P1LGR1M]

The beast and fp aside since it's debatable as to whether they are literal men or not.

So we discount the Beast and False Prophet because you aren't sure if they are real men or not?

So let's look at it.


Revelation 19:17-21
King James Version

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


First, let us consider the fact that the Beast and the False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire—alive. Does that sound like he is speaking about a demon? Does it sound like he is speaking about a concept? Explain to me what the meaning of the Beast and the False Prophet being alive means, if it is not a reference to men who have not died.

Second, is not the Beast the head of the kings of the earth and their armies? Are they following a concept?


Revelation 17:9-14
King James Version

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


A few observations:


1. The Beast is identified as "the eighth," and "of the seven. The "seven" are identified as seven kings: at the time of this writing five are fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece), one is (Rome), and one is not yet come (the final World Empire, which is the Seventh).

a. which of the first six "kings" were ruled by something other than literal men?

b. why would someone other than a literal man be "going into perdition?

c. is "the son of perdition" described as something other than a man?

d. is it men that make war with the Lamb, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords in Revelation 19?


Revelation 19:19-21
King James Version

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


What is meant by "the remnant?"

2. The Beast and False Prophet are shown to be literal men because the rest of men, who were not cast into the Lake of Fire—died physically.


2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


3. Do you deny that this is the Beast? The Antichrist? The Man of Sin?

a. the man of sin is the Antichrist, the Beast.

b. the man of sin stands in the place of Christ when the Day of the Lord occurs.

c. he is called the man of sin, not the concept of sin, not the demon of sin, not the spirit of sin.

d. he stands in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God, not something a concept can do.


So why would we not think the Beast and the False Prophet are not literal men?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Since Revelation 20:10 also involves satan, we already know he's not a literal man.

Not a valid point, sorry:


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


We know that the everlasting fire which is identified in Revelation as the Lake of Fire was created for Satan and his demons, yet it is men that Christ teaches will be cast into the Lake of Fire as well.

The argument that the Beast and False Prophet are not literal men because Satan is not a literal man doesn't change the fact that the teachings of Antichrist (who is identified by most as the Beast of Revelation) indicate that he is a man.

We also know that both fallen angels and men will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

The Goats of Matthew 25 are unbelieving men and women, that is clear.

The nations that gather with the Beast under the leadership of Satan are literal men.

The Beast and False Prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire, and the rest of men—the remnant—are killed physically and eaten of carrion fowl. Also literal men.

The distinction between the Beast and False Prophet being cast into the Lake of Fire alive and the remnant dying physically is significant because the remnant are not saod to be cast into the Lake of Fire at this time, but go to Hades to await the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennial Kingdom:


Revelation 20:5
King James Version

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Revelation 20:13-14
King James Version

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


The Beast and the False Prophet are literal men cast into the Lake of Fire—alive.

The rest of those gathered against Christ (the remnant) are physically killed and go into Hades, and await their resurrection and judgment which is also being cast into the Lake of Fire.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

So let's consider some of these things with satan in mind.

Good idea to include all relevant knowledge on the subject.

That is not a reasonable argument at all, that it doesn't have to mention it in every verse, and here are some reasons why.

Just how many times does Scripture have to say something for it to be valid?

We are only told once that the Beast and False Prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire, is this not enough?

A) Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But the beast and false prophet are not?

The men and women who rejected God's will are not?

We can say for certainty that Satan will be tormented day and night forever and ever, but no one else?


Matthew 8:28-29
King James Version

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Matthew 13:41-42
King James Version

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 25:30
King James Version

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Seems pretty clear to me.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

B) Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Involving B), the following is never said to be the fate of any of these---and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

What happened to A?

Concerning B, sorry, but it is said to happen to them.


Revelation 14:10-12
King James Version

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


And it is speaking about literal men who receive the mark of a literal Antichrist:


Revelation 14:9
King James Version

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,


Would you acknowledge that it is literal men in view that take the mark of the beast? Literal men that worship the beast?

Is it anyone other than literal men that buy and sell?


Revelation 13:16-17
King James Version

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


As I said, it is definitely a good idea to include all relevant knowledge on the issue. When we do that, denying that the beast and false prophet are literal men makes very little sense.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

But let's just ignore that fact and pretend it doesn't matter.

You would have to in order to arrive at a conclusion that the beast and false prophet are something other than literal men.

John didn't need to mention that in those verses since he already mentioned that in verse 10. Therefore, what is recorded in verse 10 also applies to what is recorded in verses 12-15.

If that is true, and the fact John didn't mention the 2nd death in verse 10, let's just ignore that fact and pretend that doesn't matter either.

So let me see if I have this right: you think Satan has life?

Because the Second Death is not physical death, that is an obvious truth based on all relevant teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

Death is separation, and we can usually identify when death is spoken of in physical terms. WHile it does make sense to view the death of the dead who are recently made alive again a physical death, it is because Satan and his demons suffer the second death that adds to the understanding that the Second Death is not a physical death.

Based on your reasoning we discount this theory because you wourself said Satan is not a literal man. He isn't, he is a spiritual creature. A spirit.

Men are both body and spirit.

We can with certainty that being cast into the Lake of Fire is in fact The Second Death:


Revelation 20:6
King James Version

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The "first resurrection" is The Resurrection of Life. The word translated "first" is the word prōtos, and is not limited to a definition and usage of "the first in a sequential context." The First Resurrection is descriptive of quality, not sequence, and is in the very text contrasted with The Second Death. That is the "Second Resurrection," the resurrection unto damnation.

Because many will try to prooftext their doctrine apart from including all relevant knowledge they will think this is the first resurrection in a sequential context, rather than what it is in truth, the Resurrection unto life.

Many try to discredit the Bible Doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture by saying, "See? This is the first resurrection—the Church can't be raptured prior to this!"

The fact is, the "First Resurrection" of Revelation 20 is not even the first rapture in Revelation. The Two Witnesses are raptured at the mid-point of the seven-year Tribulation in Revelation 11. The First Resurrection of Revelation 20 is not the Rapture, because in the Rapture the Body of Christ as a whole, both dead and alive—are raised to life in glorified form and caught up. In Revelation 20 only the dead of the Body of Christ is risen up.

So if we consider that the First Resurrection is speaking of the Resurrection of Life it is pretty easy to understand why it is contrasted with the Second Death, the resurrection unto damnation.

And that is precisely what we see of the "dead" in Revelation 20, they "live again" physically and like the beast and the false prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire—alive.

Alive, but not having the Life of Christ, that is—Eternal Life.


Continued...

 

[DavidPT]

There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.

Yet, calling it the 2nd death implies that one dies eventually. Which then agrees with some of the following.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


We can't apply this to the here and now, because even the righteous saved die eventually. Is the reason they die eventually because their soul sinneth? Therefore, this is referring to the 2nd death, which then is referring to what Jesus said per the following, the part I have underlined below.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


It is ludricrous to argue, though God is able to do that, He really doesn't and won't. So why did Jesus bring up something that is never going to happen? That makes sense exactly how?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Once again, even the righteous saved die eventually. Is it because, in their case, the wages of sin is death? And speaking of wages, when does one usually get rewarded with wages? Usually upon the completion of something.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

This is when the lost begin getting awarded their wages, meaning death, meaning the 2nd death since it can't be meaning the first death. and besides---is eternal life(Romans 6:23)--and since that obviously applies to the next age, then so must this apply to the next age---death(Romans 6:23). The only death applicable in the next age is the 2nd death. Therefore, death in Romans 6:23 is meaning the 2nd death---For the wages of sin is (the second) death.

And BTW, though it should already be clear by now, I'm not disputing what Revelation 20:10 records. I fully agree with what is recorded in that verse. But that verse has zero to do with verses 12-15 since they are not the same judgment. Therefore, one can't apply 'and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever' to that of verses 12-15, the same way one can't apply 'the 2nd death' recorded in Revelation 20:12-15 to that of satan in verse 10. As if it is reasonable, since a 2nd death implies a first death, that satan has experienced a first death in order to experience a 2nd death.

 

[P1LGR1M]

John didn't need to mention that in this verse since he mentioned that in verses 12-15. Therefore, what is recorded in verses 12-15 also applies to what is recorded in verse 10.

I would agree with that, if not the conclusion you arrive at.

Which then means this. A 2nd death obviously implies a first death.

It does, and that death is the death Christ said all men have unless they drink His blood and eat of His flesh:


John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


So why doesn't the Second Death have power over those who have been part of the First Resurrec tion (which is not the first resurrection in sequence, but in character)?


Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The math is easy: just as it is taught in all of Christ and the Apostles' teachings—they believed in Jesus Christ.

They received the first of resurrections of the two Christ taught:


John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


For those reading this, a word of caution: if anyone tells you Eschatology is non-essential, mark that person as ignorant of the intricate consistency of all of God's Word.

Much of what we have been given falls under Eschatology, and we do not want to make the same mistake people made in regard to God's Word that those people made when Christ came the first time.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

In order to experience a 2nd death requires that one has to first experience a first death. Now one has to logically explain how satan, a being that has never died since being created, experienced a first death in order to experience a 2nd death.

We are born into separation from God, and have no life.

That is the Biblical Definition given us by Christ Himself:


John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Your reasoning here is absurd, because you would have to impose a condition of Eternal Life in Satan to support the assertion, "satan, a being that has never died since being created..."

Satan has no life, He is dead. He will suffer the second death. That is the eternal separation of Satan from God.

So would you mind showing me in Scripture where exactly you base your teaching that Satan has the Life of God, Eternal Life, and that he is not dead?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

It would be cherry picking to not apply the 2nd death to verse 10, but apply 'shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever' to that of verses 12-15.

I agree: Satan is said to suffer the Second Death. Your rationalization of Scripture isn't going to change that:


Revelation 20:10-15
King James Version

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


There it is, the biblical Definition of what the Second Death is: being cast into the Lake of Fire.

Those not found in the Book of Life will suffer the Second Death, because they did not receive the First Resurrection, the Resurrection unto Life.

We are told who will not suffer the Second Death:


Revelation 20:5-6
King James Version

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Does this mean that only the Tribulation Martyrs are free from the power of the Second Death?

No, because in view is not a sequential Resurrection, it is the Resurrection unto Life.

In regards to Eternal Life we list the resurrections sequentially like this:

1. The Resurrection of Christ, the firstfruits from the dead;

2. The Church in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture;

3. The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, also literal men;

4. The Tribulation Martyrs;

5. Anyone still alive physically at the end of the Millennial Kingdom;

6. After the Millennial Kingdom some might speculate, as I do, that there will be those in a continuing Just compartment of Hades (also known as the Bosom of Abraham and Paradise) that will be judged according to their response to revelation they received from God (the witness of Creation, the internal witness of God (Romans 1-2) but never had the chance to respond to the Gospel. While I am not dogmatic about this, I do think there are those that will receive of God's grace and make it through the Great White Throne Judgment and enter into the Eternal State. I believe God's mercy will be shown to all aborted babies, young children without the ability to respond in obedience to the Gospel, and those mentally impaired. I view this as a Basic Principle of God and seen throughout man's history.

However, for those who do receive the Gospel and the Ministry of the Comforter in this life that reject His will and refuse to come into obedience—they will suffer the Second Death.

They will go into eternity without life as they lived physically without life. The only way to have life is to believe in Christ, and it is in Christ that we receive the Resurrection unto Life.


Continued...

 

[Der Alte]

Yet, calling it the 2nd death implies that one dies eventually. Which then agrees with some of the following.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
We can't apply this to the here and now, because even the righteous saved die eventually. Is the reason they die eventually because their soul sinneth? Therefore, this is referring to the 2nd death, which then is referring to what Jesus said per the following, the part I have underlined below.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
It is ludricrous to argue, though God is able to do that, He really doesn't and won't. So why did Jesus bring up something that is never going to happen? That makes sense exactly how?
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Once again, even the righteous saved die eventually. Is it because, in their case, the wages of sin is death? And speaking of wages, when does one usually get rewarded with wages? Usually upon the completion of something.
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
This is when the lost begin getting awarded their wages, meaning death, meaning the 2nd death since it can't be meaning the first death. and besides---is eternal life(Romans 6:23)--and since that obviously applies to the next age, then so must this apply to the next age---death(Romans 6:23). The only death applicable in the next age is the 2nd death. Therefore, death in Romans 6:23 is meaning the 2nd death---For the wages of sin is (the second) death.
And BTW, though it should already be clear by now, I'm not disputing what Revelation 20:10 records. I fully agree with what is recorded in that verse. But that verse has zero to do with verses 12-15 since they are not the same judgment. Therefore, one can't apply 'and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever' to that of verses 12-15, the same way one can't apply 'the 2nd death' recorded in Revelation 20:12-15 to that of satan in verse 10. As if it is reasonable, since a 2nd death implies a first death, that satan has experienced a first death in order to experience a 2nd death.

What did Jesus mean in these 2 verses?

Matthew 8:22
(22) But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Luke 9:60
(60) Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.​

In Rev 20:14 death and hell were thrown into the LOF. Hell is either the grave or the place of eternal punishment it is not a living thing therefore it can't and did not die a first time and certainly can't die a second death.
Death is the point in time end of life, it is not a living thing therefore it can't and did not die a first time and certainly can't die second death.

Revelation 20:14
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

 

[P1LGR1M]

The only way to avoid cherry picking since the 2nd death undeniably can't be applied to satan,

On the contrary, the burden is on you to show from Scripture the first passage that ascribes life to Satan.

Having a spirit, and being a spirit is not having life.

All men are conceived and born into this world—dead.

No man or Angel is created or born having life.

Satan, like all men dead in trespasses and sins, is without life.

And the fact that God created the Lake of Fire for Satan and his angels shows that there will never be a chance for Satan to have life.

Their fate is sealed.

But feel free to give the Biblical Presentation that Satan is a being that has the Life of God.

The only way to avoid cherry picking since the 2nd death undeniably can't be applied to satan, neither can 'shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever' be applied to that of verses 12-15.

Of course it can be applied to verses 12-15.

It is cherry-picking Scripture that arrives at a conclusion that the texts are unrelated.

I would hesitate to name what I call negating Scripture with reasoning like this.

The Second Death is being cast into the Lake of Fire. You can't eradicate that simple truth from Scripture.

Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire and suffers the Second Death.

The only way not to suffer the Second Death is to partake of the Resurrection unto Life, the First of Two Resurrections taught by Christ.


Revelation 20:5-6
King James Version

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


There are only two resurrections taught in Scripture, the First being the Resurrection unto life. You can't give a sequential meaning to prōtos because the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs is not the first resurrection of Revelation or the events of Revelation. The Two Witnesses are two literal men who are killed by a literal man known as the Beast and the Antichrist, and they are raised to life and caught up. We know neither the Rapture of the Two Witnesses or the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs is the Rapture of the Church, because we do not see both living and dead believers of the Body raised as Paul describes.

Only those that have part in the First Resurrection have no fear of suffering the Second Death. That is just basic: the Lake of Fire doesn't hold power over those who have received life through union with God through Jesus Christ. And you can't do that if you do not believe in Christ.

Devils believe, and tremble, because they know their fate:


Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


Demons (including Satan) and unbelievers have no life. They are dead before they physically die. Again, that is just basic. They will suffer the second death, the second separation—by being cast into the Lake of Fire. And how one can read Scripture and not see that this will be an unending torment is beyond me. It takes ignoring all of Scripture and cherry-picking proof texts for people to convince themselves they need not fear God Who destroys both soul (person) and body in Hell, the Lake of Fire.

So just tell me this: did you have life before you were saved?


God bless.