Is the Book of Revelation the only place in Scripture teaching eternal torment?

[P1LGR1M]

That's fair (though, for clarification, I'd prefer the wording that people "die" rather than "cease to exist").

But it is cessation of existence that is in view.

Thus it is necessary to present Scripture that shows a spirit ceases to exist.

If neither of us can verify our beliefs with Scripture, than neither of us can claim either of our respective understandings is the Scriptural one, so you make a valid point.

I would suggest to you that Scripture does give us that which we need to draw a decisive conclusion as to whether spirits cease to exist or not.

But before we can draw a conclusion we must understand the elements of the issue involved.

The first issue would be to identify man's make-up, and I would suggest to you that man's make-up is a dichotomy, meaning he is made up of a body and a spirit as we are told Adam was. His body was created, and God breathed life into him (spirit), and man became a living soul.

The conclusion that man has a soul is an erroneous view (from my perspective as a Bible Student) based on poor interpretive skills.


Genesis 2:7
King James Version

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


I've included three links to the original words translated "a living soul."

We also see "living souls" here:


Genesis 1:21
King James Version

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


So we see man is not the only "living soul" that God created.

We see here...


Genesis 2:19
King James Version

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


When Adam named the "lives" that were the beasts of the field, and the fowl, they are called "living souls."

Now, when someone takes a passage using what refers to the "person" that has "life" and imposes an understand that the "Person," the "soul" is an immaterial aspect of man—they are basing their conclusion on error.

For example:


Ezekiel 18:4
King James Version

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


While we might speculate that the person that sins in this verse will face Eternal Judgment, we can't impose that into the text. The context deals with those who do not keep the Law contrasted with those who do not violate the Law.

The "death" in view is physical only. That was the penalty for death under the Law. Physical death is still a penalty that Christians face if they live in unrepentant sin.

When we see "soul" in Scripture it is referring to the "person." It is proper to call a man that is physically alive a soul, because that is the person. It is also proper to call a man that is physically dead a soul, despite the fact he now exists only in his spirit, because he is still the person. Hence we see "souls in Heaven" in Revelation. We see people in Heaven in Revelation.

Jesus Christ confirms the dichotomy of man here:


Luke 24:36-40
King James Version

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.


The disciples thought they were seeing a spirit, a ghost, because they thought the Lord was still dead, they were yet unbelieving that He had risen from the grave.

He confirms that when men experience death physically their spirit leaves their body. Because man is a living soul, he doesn't have one.

We also see confirmation of this when we look at quotes from the Old Testament:


Acts 7:14
Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.


Genesis 46:26
All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;


It was not an immaterial pilgrimage into Egypt, these were "people."

So were these:


Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 27:37
And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.


While God did baptize spirits into the church that day, lol, in view are living, breathing, and not dead people. We can say "And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen people." Even today, when a ship goes down, there is a count of how many "souls" were lost.

So the first point we need to understand in determining a conclusion as to what death means in Scripture is to remove erroneous beliefs that might impact a proper conclusion. Imposing an eternal (meaning that which deals with what is outside of space and time (our physical universe)) context into passages that are dealing with the physical realm only (which is most of them, particularly in the Old Testament) leads to improper proof texting.

One verse that is regularly used is this:


Hebrews 4:12
King James Version

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Some would view the dividing of the "soul and spirit" as a dividing of two aspects of man's immaterial aspect, thinking man has a body, a spirit, and a soul.

The meaning though is far simpler: the Word of God kills. When the spirit is divided from the "soul," as we see in the case of the disciples' fright concerning the Risen Savior, it is dead physically.

The spirit, the only immaterial aspect of man, is divided from the physical body in death.

And what do we see in the Old Testament? We see that the Word of God kills if it is not obeyed, right?


2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


Another proof text for the trichotomous make-up of man:


1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Paul hopes God will preserve their whole spirit (their life (with implication of their relationship to God)) and soul (their person, which would be the more personal aspect of their individual self) and body (their physical well-being).

And then we have the rest of Scripture where "soul" is clearly a reference to the person, sometimes in a context where they have died, but usually their physically alive state.

Now, in the discussion of death, if we do not impose a meaning into soul that isn't there, we can move on to deal with passages that deal with death in regards to the immaterial aspect of man (as well as angels and demons), and we can begin to make sense of what we are really being told by Scripture.

The next issue will be passages dealing with death of individuals and whether being dead is sonething that requires either cessation or physical death.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

That's fair (though, for clarification, I'd prefer the wording that people "die" rather than "cease to exist").

Next we establish that "death" is a condition that doesn't require physical death. In other words, men can be "dead" despite still being physically alive:


John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


We know the people the Lord is referring to have a physically alive body, and they have a spirit, but He is saying that they will never see "life."

They are dead if they don't have life, right?


John 6:53
King James Version

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Would you agree that "eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood" is speaking about believing in Him?

If so, then you would acknowledge that those who do not believe in Christ have no life in them.

They are dead.

We are "made alive" in Christ:


Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


We are physically alive before Regeneration, but we are dead. We have life, and will never die, if we are in Christ.

Christ wasn't speaking about physical death here:


John 6:47-53
King James Version

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.


Manna was the provision for "life" in the wilderness. Like most of the Old Testament Eras, manna was physical sustenance for life, just as the Tree of Life was physical sustenance, not Eternal Life.

Everyone understood that Moses and the fathers were physically, dead, but Christ is speaking about the absence of the Life He came to bestow upon men. Moses and the fathers' spirits still existed, but Christ states they are "dead."

He explains in the following:


50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


Would you agree that "His flesh" is a reference to His death on the Cross?


52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Those who do not eat of His flesh and do not drink of His blood have no life.

They are dead.

Yet they have not ceased to exist.

Those spoken to here are physically alive, and their spirits have not departed from their bodies. Moses and the fathers were still in existence, though their spirits had departed from their bodies.

And all of them are dead. Why? Because no one is believing in Christ concerning His flesh and His blood yet. His body and blood are euphemisms for His life. We partake of His body and blood when we partake of Communion, and they represent one thing: His death.

So now we have, in our discussion concerning death, an understanding that men can be dead but not pass out of existence. They can be alive physically yet dead.

We are all dead when we are conceived and born into this world because we do not have the Life Christ came to bestow: Eternal Life. The Life we receive when we are immersed into God Who is Eternal. We partake of that divine nature, though we ourselves do not become divine. We receive the life that is contrasted with death over and over in Scripture, and what we see is that those who do not have Eternal/Everlasting life because they do not believe in Christ are called dead.

So when we look at the fate of unbelievers who are dead before they even die, we have to understand that when they receive the Second Death they do not cease to exist.

To die and to be dead is more than just a reference to physical death in Scripture.

Next, we will look at one of the verses that deal with death and the eternal state of those who reject God's will.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

That's fair (though, for clarification, I'd prefer the wording that people "die" rather than "cease to exist").

Again, that people die doesn't impose into them the Life that only those who believe in Christ receive.

Hence we see the dead die in Scripture, and still there is no cessation of existence.

Let's look at the walking dead of Israel:


Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


The Lost Sheep of Israel were in a state of destruction when Christ came to them.

The same will be true of those who reject God's will:


Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Is the Lord warning men to fear God because He loses people in Hell?

No, He is warning them not to fear men that can only kill the body (which is an event that does not result in the cessation of the person's spirit), but to fear God Who can do more than kill. Fear the God that can cast into Hell and destroy both the person and their body in Hell.

So does it mean the body and the spirit die and pass out of existence?

Was the body and the spirit of the Lost Sheep of Israel dead and passed out of existence?

No, the Lord came to save those who were dead but had not passed out of existence:


Mat 18:11
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. G622


The state of destruction people live in while physically alive is the death they are conceived and born into.

And what did Christ come to do for the Lost Sheep of Israel?


John 3:14-16
King James Version

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


God came so that men should not be destroyed.

What is the state of those that do not believe?


John 3:17-18
King James Version

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


So only those who believe in Christ will not be destroyed, and only those that believe in Christ will have life.

The Lord didn't say "Fear Him Who hath power to kill in Hell," but fear Him Who, after He has cast into Hell has the power to destroy.

And that destruction is described by Christ and the Apostles as an ongoing separation, torment, and punishment.

To be lost is to be in a state of destruction which is the separation from God we are all born into.

To have life is to be made alive by God through belief in Jesus Christ.

Those who do not believe will never see life but will remain condemned. When they are cast into the Lake of Fire they will suffer the Second Death, and that second death is their eternal separation from God.

We will never find a verse in Scripture that shows that a spirit can die and pass out of existence.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

I'm approaching the issue from a different angle, though, saying that if you're a sinner (in contrast to a saved Christian with God's gift of life), then you'll die, and one passage I'd use is Romans 6:22-23. Verse 22 talks about Christians being set free from sin to instead serve God for eternal life. Then, the next verse, 23, says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (NKJV, emphasis added). Does this passage contrast the saved, to whom God gives eternal life, with the lost, who earn death? If so, wouldn't it teach the lost die? I would interpret the passage literally unless passages can be provided to the contrary (such as if a passage were to claim the spirit-part of man is immortal).

It's not really "a different angle," it is the same approach all who seek to justify universal salvation use, and it is using verses and passages out of context.


Romans 6:22-23
King James Version

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


That death is a penalty for sin is a Basic Bible Doctrine. However, you are trying to use a passage that has more of a temporal context than an eternal context. It is true that Eternal Life is contrasted with Eternal Judgment, however, it does not appear that you understand that those who "die" are already dead in trespasses and sins.

They are already dead, and the death they will receive in Eternity in the Lake of Fire is a continuation of the condemnation they are already under. Secondly, they are raised to physical life again before they are cast into the Lake of Fire, so both soul (person, spirit) and body are destroyed in Hell.


Romans 6:12
King James Version

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


Paul is dealing with those who have life. He is teaching them not to let sin rule their lives, because it is still true, "The wages of sin is death." Even for those who have life and will never "die."

I'm approaching the issue from a different angle, though, saying that if you're a sinner (in contrast to a saved Christian with God's gift of life), then you'll die, and one passage I'd use is Romans 6:22-23. Verse 22 talks about Christians being set free from sin to instead serve God for eternal life. Then, the next verse, 23, says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (NKJV, emphasis added). Does this passage contrast the saved, to whom God gives eternal life, with the lost, who earn death?

No, it is telling those who have eternal life to live holy because they have eternal life.

He is saying "The wages of death is sin and that hasn't changed because you have eternal life."

That is the context of the chapter:


Romans 6
King James Version

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.


21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.


22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


The context is of temporal righteousness, not positional righteousness in Christ. Just because you are declared righteous and have life doesn't mean that you can continue to sin.

The temporal context continues in the next chapter:


Romans 7
King James Version

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


He is speaking about what we do in the body of our flesh.


23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


He draws a conclusion concerning how we are to live in the flesh and as to Who shall deliver him from "the body of this death:"


Romans 8:12-13
King James Version

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Why will we die if we live after the flesh? Because the wages of sin is death. Physical death is in view in Romans 6:22-23. Ananias and Sapphira, as well as those who partook of Communion unworthily were put to death by God because the wages of sin is death, even for the believer who is eternally indwelt by God and will never "die."

But we aren't left on our own to work out our salvation:


26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.


But we still need to be delivered from this body of "death:"


22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


So as I said, this is not a "new approach," but the same approach demanded of doctrines like universal salvation and annihilation.

Spirits do not cease to exist. Spirits do die, but the fact is that every spirit of man dwells in death unless they receive the Life of Christ through believing in Christ. THat Life is bestowed wehn we are Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which is our immersion into God and the eternal indwelling of God. We receive His Life because we receive Him.

So we cannot use a passage that deals with the temporal aspects of sin in the life of a believer and try to construct support for the "death" of the unbeliever, nor do we see the cessation of the unbeliever.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

If so, wouldn't it teach the lost die?

No, it teaches physical death that is the wage of sin and still relevant even to those who have eternal life.

The lost are already dead. Even though they are physically alive.

They will be raised physically and go into the Lake of Fire, and we are not told they are killed, but destroyed eternally, just as they were in a state of destruction when they were physically alive.

I would interpret the passage literally unless passages can be provided to the contrary (such as if a passage were to claim the spirit-part of man is immortal).

Here is one:


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Matthew 25:41 teaches that the lost of humanity will go into the same punishment that the devil and his angels go into.

Above we see that the Beast and False Prophet, literal men, are cast alive into the Lake of Fire and here, a thousand years later—they are still there.

And when we look at all relevant verses in Revelation we see that they endure torment day and night forever and ever. One can say "That is just speaking of Satan" but it isn't a very good argument in light of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles who use terms and phrases such as "Their worm dieth not" and the "fire is not quenched" and "the blackness of darkness forever."

Most would conclude that the devil, his angels, the beast and the false prophet, and the goats (human unbelievers) will all go into the same judgment, and if it is everlasting for one it is everlasting for all.

Therefore, unless passages can be provided teaching a certain part of a person can never die but is inherently immortal, I would understand Romans 6:22-23 to teach sinners will literally die.

This is why I said, to be fair, you will have to provide passages that show a spirit passing out of existence.

It can't be done with Scripture, and Scripture makes it pretty clear that the spirits of men do not cease to exist after death.

Plus, we see that one can be dead and still physically alive. All who go into the Lake of Fire will be physically alive, and that their punishment is everlasting indicates both spirit and body continue into everlasting punishment.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

P.S. As I think about it, I actually do know of a passage that implies only God is inherently immortal, implying humans aren't—1 Timothy 6:13-16 (NKJV, emphasis mine):

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Only God has Eternal Life because only God is Eternal, but we receive eternal life through our union with Him.

So too, we will be made immortal when we are glorified:


1Co 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


So not a good argument to deny that the spirits of the lost will never cease to exist.

And the one aspect of mortal versus immortal you overlook is that mortal implies possibility of death, immortal denies possibility of death.

And the lost are already dead.

So we cannot overlook the two differing contexts: one referring to physicality, and one referring to the spirit of men. The lost will be in an unending state of death which they are already in. Thus to impose a mortal/immortal argument steps outside of a legitimate argument.

When we are glorified we will be immortal meaning that physical death will have no power over us (Revelation 21:4). The dead in Hell will not be immortal because they are dead, just like they were when they were alive.


God bless.

 

[DavidPT]

I don't know about the soul, but the body is not immortal.

When the lost are resurrected, they are resurrected bodily. Which then means they are cast into the LOF bodily. The question is, when Jesus raises them bodily, what kind of body does He raise them in? A body that can never die, thus an immortal body? Or a body that can die, thus a mortal body? Obviously, when Jesus raises the saved bodily, they are given a body that can never die. But where does it say the same is also true of the body the lost are raised in, that neither can this body ever die, is the question needing an answer to?

 

[P1LGR1M]

When the lost are resurrected, they are resurrected bodily. Which then means they are cast into the LOF bodily. The question is, when Jesus raises them bodily, what kind of body does He raise them in? A body that can never die, thus an immortal body? Or a body that can die, thus a mortal body? Obviously, when Jesus raises the saved bodily, they are given a body that can never die. But where does it say the same is also true of the body the lost are raised in, that neither can this body ever die, is the question needing an answer to?

The Lost are dead before they die physically because they have not received the life we receive when we believe in Christ.

Thus they are dead while physically alive in this world, and dead and physically alive in the Lake of Fire.

It is a death that is not relevant to a physical body dying.

Before you were saved you were dead. When you were saved you received life and you will now never die. Even if you die physically you will never die. You can be dead yet alive. The lost can be alive yet dead.


God bless.

 

[Clare73]

When the lost are resurrected, they are resurrected bodily. Which then means they are cast into the LOF bodily. The question is, when Jesus raises them bodily, what kind of body does He raise them in? A body that can never die, thus an immortal body? Or a body that can die, thus a mortal body? Obviously, when Jesus raises the saved bodily, they are given a body that can never die. But where does it say the same is also true of the body the lost are raised in, that neither can this body ever die, is the question needing an answer to?

Even if the body dies, the spirit is still alive, and that is the issue.

 

[DavidPT]

The Lost are dead before they die physically because they have not received the life we receive when we believe in Christ.

Thus they are dead while physically alive in this world, and dead and physically alive in the Lake of Fire.

It is a death that is not relevant to a physical body dying.

Before you were saved you were dead. When you were saved you received life and you will now never die. Even if you die physically you will never die. You can be dead yet alive. The lost can be alive yet dead.


God bless.

But still, it could put this debate to rest once and for all if someone can produce Scriptures that indicate both the saved and the lost are raised in bodies that can never die. If the lost are raised in bodies that can never die, this would obviously support ECT. As to the lost, your focus seems to be on the spiritual aspect rather than the physical aspect. I don't know why you keep avoiding the physical aspect?

As to the lost, the physical aspect consists of some of the following. The lost are born into physical bodies and when they die, their physical body is what dies. At this point, the same is also true of the saved. But the focus here is not the saved, the focus is the lost. Eventually the lost will be raised from the dead bodily, thus more of the physical aspect involving them. Then once they are raised bodily, they are judged and sentenced, and that this same body they were raised in, it is cast into the LOF. And since no one has an immortal body prior to the 2nd coming, other than Christ, it clearly matters what type of body the lost are raised in, since this will help us determine what happens to them after they are cast into the LOF.

 

[DavidPT]

Even if the body dies, the spirit is still alive, and that is the issue.

The body, according to Jesus, is what is cast into hell, which I take to be meaning the LOF. Prior to being raised from the dead, everyone are in agreement that the body is not immortal. To me it would not make sense, that after the lost are raised bodily then cast bodily into the LOF, that it is their body that literally dies in there but that their soul lives on. Matthew 10:28 indicates both body and soul are destroyed in hell. So that means whatever happens to the body also happens to the soul since it would be cherry picking to insist only the body is destroyed, the soul isn't. The question is, what is meant by destroy in Matthew 10:28? If we know what kind of body the lost are raised in, this would help answer this question. As to the soul, the soul is not immortal unless one can prove that from Scriptures, where it clearly and plainly tells us this is so. I have not noticed such Scriptures myself.


As to the spirit of a man, I take the spirit to be meaning an external source that gives life to the body and soul of a man. Then when someone dies, regardless whether they are saved or lost, the spirit returns to God who gave it. IOW, I don't see a soul and a spirit meaning the same thing, though I could be wrong about that for all I know.

 

[Andrewn]

from the ones who die (sinners)?

Everyone knows that the wages of sin is death and that sinners will suffer the 2nd death. You interpret this to mean annihilation. Others interpret it to mean eternal separation from God. Rom 6:22-23 does not shed light on which interpretation is correct. Thus, you haven't proved that the majority is incorrect.

 

[P1LGR1M]

But still, it could put this debate to rest once and for all if someone can produce Scriptures that indicate both the saved and the lost are raised in bodies that can never die.

And I think we can see that in Scripture:


Mark 9:43-48
King James Version

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


There must be a body to satisfy the flame and the worm. If you say the body "dies" this leaves only the spirit of the one cast into Hell, which is a spiritual judgment.

And it seems that spirits in the spiritual realm/s have bodies, that is the implication of several passages:


Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Revelation 7:13-15
King James Version

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.


These are identified as those who come out of great tribulation, which could mean they are the spirits of Tribulation Martyrs (which I think, given the context of the chapter and Book, is the case) or that it represents all martyrs of all Biblical History. And they are wearing robes. One could view this as symbolic, and that the robes represent the righteous deeds of the martyrs, but it still remains that they are wearing robes.

I believe these spirits are the same ones seen here:


Revelation 6:9-11
King James Version

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Concerning the resurrection of the dead we see...


1 Corinthians 15:44-48
King James Version

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.


Paul teaches that men are sown a natural body (which is the one that experiences physical death) and raised a spiritual body (which is the one that will either be raised in glorified form or will remain "of Adam").

And Paul clearly distinguishes two group of those raised: the earthy (of Adam) and the heavenly (in Christ).

While the universal salvationist might want to apply being "heavenly" to all men, Paul carefully distinguishes the two groups throughout the chapter:


1 Corinthians 15
King James Version

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.


12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?


Some rejected the resurrection of the dead, as did the Sadducees.


17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


Two groups: those who are saved (v.2), and those who are "in Christ."

We that are in Christ have hope of the "better resurrection" because of Christ's resurrection. Those who have died in Christ have not perished because Christ has risen from the dead.

And Christ is the firstfruits of those in Christ who shall be raised from the dead.


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


While a popular proof text of universal salvation, Paul clarifies that the resurrection of the dead is not one group, though all will be raised based on the power of Christ. The dead of Revelation 20 are made alive again, but that does not mean they have life like those who believe in Christ have life. Those who did not believe will never "see" life, as Christ teaches in John 3:36.


23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


"They that are in Christ" makes a distinct focus on Paul's teaching that those in Christ have hope.


25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


Being "put under the feet" of Christ is not an indication of being in Christ but a statement regarding the judgment Christ often taught about. These are they He never knew, nor did they know Him. These are they that did not obey the Gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:7-9).

And we see that after His enemies are delivered up from the sea and from Hades (remember the ones that died for the sake of the Word of God are in Heaven, not Hades) they are judged at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:5; Revelation 20:13-15).

Death is the last enemy to be destroyed because at this point the current universe has passed away leaving only Gehenna Hell, the Lake of Fire—and the dead are cast into the Lake of Fire. In the Eternal State, the new heavens and Earth, only those who have life exist, there is no death, thus has been "destroyed."


56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


There is still a sting to death, and that is judgment. And the judgment is for sin. The strength of sin is the Law—but that sting of death has no power over those who are in Christ. It is through Christ the "we" of this chapter have hope in the resurrection of the dead.

But all men will have "spiritual bodies" for their eternal (meaning outside of this universe and time, Eternity) existence.

If we look at the distinction drawn between those who are in Christ we don't impose a universal application to being raised "heavenly" to all men. There will be those who are "heavenly" because they are in Christ and those who will be "earthy" because they are still in Adam.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

If the lost are raised in bodies that can never die, this would obviously support ECT.

And this is something I have tried repeatedly to explain: having "life" in Christ is a separate life from the "life" men have when they are first given physical life at conception (physical) and the "life" they have when their bodies are resurrected.

All will be resurrected in bodies, but not all will have the "life" Christ came to bestow (John 3:16).

All men will have "spiritual bodies" that will exist into eternity, but not all men will have Eternal Life. Eternal Life can only be obtained by being placed in Eternal God.

As to the lost, your focus seems to be on the spiritual aspect rather than the physical aspect.

It isn't.

But we have to acknowledge that the resurrection of the dead is a spiritual event and that the resurrection is a spiritual resurrection (for both the saved and the lost). Both groups are repeatedly spoken of when resurrection of the dead is taught in Scripture. Daniel 12:1-2 distinguishes two different resurrections among men, one unto everlasting life and one unto shame and everlasting contempt.

This is a First Principle of the Doctrine of Christ and of the Hebrew Scriptures. This is why the Lord was asked how one might obtain Eternal LIfe.

I don't know why you keep avoiding the physical aspect?

I haven't, lol.

But I have tried to point out that the physical nature of the resurrection of the dead has two groups: those who have life, and those who will never see life. Those who have been forgiven, and those who will never receive forgiveness (John 3:18; Mark 3:29).

Both will have bodies (Revelation 20:5-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) but both do not have life. This is why "the dead" lived not again (physically) until the thousand years were over.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

As to the lost, the physical aspect consists of some of the following. The lost are born into physical bodies and when they die, their physical body is what dies.

Agreed, with the exception of those who are raptured. They will not physically die but will be transformed into their glorified bodies at the Rapture.

Apart from that group of physically living men, and the Beast and the False Prophet (who are cast alive into the Lake of Fire) all men die in their physical bodies and await the Rapture (which I place before the Tribulation begins) or the resurrection of the dead.

The Tribulation Martyrs are likely glorified when they are raised from the dead in Revelation 20:4-6, but it could be argued that they are only physically raised at that time. Either way we see them raised and have it pointed out to us that they are believers in Christ.

The rest of the dead are not made alive again at this time because they are not believers. This is what is spoken of unbelievers within the Tribulation:


Revelation 14:9-11
King James Version

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


When we are told that those who worship the beast will receive of the wrath of God and the wrath is explained as torment with fire and brimstone and that the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever we see a different judgment from those who the Second Death has no power over.

I do think "no rest day and night" has a first application to the events of the Tribulation (temporal) but it extends into eternity, just as the everlasting punishment of Matthew 25:46 begins in Hades (as it did for the rich man) and will continue in the Lake of Fire.

At this point, the same is also true of the saved.

Agreed.

But both will be raised in spiritual bodies. There will be those who are earthy, or still in Adam, and those who are heavenly because they are in Christ. That distinction is, I think, made clear in 1 Corinthians 15. Only those who are in Christ have the hope of glory.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

But the focus here is not the saved, the focus is the lost.

And the lost will never see life. John 3:36.

They will never have forgiveness. If those who commit the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost (which I view to be the rejection of the ministry of God unto salvation, a rejection of God's attempt to reveal saving truth to men (regardless of the Age it occurs in)) can never be forgiven, they can never be forgiven:


Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.


How can universal salvation be true if we see there will be those who cannot be forgiven this sin?

Do we say "The Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost" is not a sin men can commit?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Eventually the lost will be raised from the dead bodily, thus more of the physical aspect involving them. Then once they are raised bodily, they are judged and sentenced, and that this same body they were raised in, it is cast into the LOF.

Correct.

And the description of their judgment is one of everlasting condition.

While we do not call this spiritual body (of the lost) glorified, it is similar to the body those who are redeemed are raised in with one exception: they do not have life like we do.

They will never see life: John 3:36.

They remain condemned: John 3:18.

They do not have life because they do not believe in Jesus Christ: John 6:53.

The Second Death, being cast into the Lake of Fire—has power over them:


Revelation 20:6
King James Version

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Revelation 20:14-15
King James Version

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 22:18-19
King James Version

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


(temporal judgment)


19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


(Eternal Judgment)

And since no one has an immortal body prior to the 2nd coming, other than Christ, it clearly matters what type of body the lost are raised in, since this will help us determine what happens to them after they are cast into the LOF.

I view the Rapture to occur prior to the Tribulation.

There is a great multitude of unbelievers that join Satan when he is released after the thousand-year reign of Christ (the Millennial Kingdom). This denies that the Rapture of the Church takes place at the Return of Christ because if all believers are glorified at this time there would be no one to populate the Millennial Kingdom in physical bodies capable of procreation to supply the unbelievers of Revelation 20:7-9.

Secondly, when the Lord returns we see the Sheep and Goat judgment. The events of the Tribulation will see the physical death of one-half of the world's population, and the Sheep and Goat judgment results in the physical deaths of the unbelievers that physically survive the Tribulation.

Between the Supper of the Great God and the Sheep and Goat judgment, all unbelievers will perish physically before the Millennial Kingdom is established (which is why there is a 75-day period after the end of the Tribulation, to judge the Nations and establish the Kingdom (Daniel 12:6-12).

Thus is the Prophecy of Christ fulfilled (in its first application):


John 3:3
King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Apart from Regeneration, no man will enter into the Kingdom of God. This is true of the Kingdom we have been delivered into when we are born again (Colossians 1:13-14); it is true of the Millennial Kingdom (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:27-28; Matthew 25:31-33); it is true of the Eternal State:


Revelation 21:7-8
King James Version

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


John defines the Second Death as being cast into the Lake of Fire. The Second Death has power over the unbelieving.

John also defines overcoming:


1 John 5
King James Version

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Again, thus the Prophecy of Christ is fulfilled:


John 3:3
King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


God bless.

 

[Kilk1]

@P1LGR1M Thank you for your thorough set of posts. My reply will be shorter but can focus on the main issues at hand. My reason for not using the phrase "ceasing to exist" is because something can die without ceasing to exist. For example, a corpse is dead, and yet it exists. However, ceasing to exist is certainly one way to die, and I also understand your point that "death" can be too broad of a term since there are two senses of "death." You made a strong case for this, and I don't plan to deny it. Another passage showing two senses of death is 1 Timothy 5:6, which describes someone as being "dead while she lives" (1 Tim. 5:6, NKJV), which would be contradictory without two senses of "death." Therefore, I concede that there are two senses of "death" in Scripture. Furthermore, instead of using the word "death," which has more than one meaning, to represent my view, I'll use the phrase "becoming no more."

The question, of course, is what kind of death is the "second death," which awaits the lost? a) Physical death, which involves becoming no more and losing vitality, or b) death in sin, standing guilty before God? In Ephesians 4:9-11, Paul makes the necessary inference that to "ascend" implies a prior descent. Similarly, to imply someone "dies" at some point implies they were not yet dead before that point. Therefore, since the lost are already "dead" in sin, it doesn't make sense to say they "die" while already dead unless they die in a different sense. Therefore, since the lost are already dead in sin, the "second death" more naturally would refer to dying physically a second time.

Now, of course, Revelation speaks of the devil, etc. suffering eternal torment in Revelation 20:10. It appears you argue that since the devil, beast, and false prophet suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire, which is the second death, therefore lost humanity will also since they also are thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). Essentially, you're arguing that whatever happens to one person in the lake of fire happens to all, "and if it is everlasting for one it is everlasting for all," right?

Now, I actually have no problem with saying that becoming no more is "everlasting," since the second death involves dying without coming back to life. However, there are three problems I see with your reasoning that if one suffers eternal torment, all suffer eternal torment. First, Revelation is a highly symbolic book, so it's difficult to prove something is literally true through Revelation. While I believe we should take most books of the Bible literally, Revelation is an exception to this rule. Assuming you don't believe in a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns, for example (Revelation 13:1), you'd agree with this point, though I can discuss it further in the event you'd disagree. Second, since we're told the image of eternal torment in the lake of fire "is" the second death, what follows the word "is" can be the literal interpretation of the symbolic imagery. For example, in Genesis 41:26-27, we're told seven good cattle "are" seven years of food while the seven thin cattle "are" seven years of famine, which clearly means the cattle represent the literal interpretation of years for food/famine. Therefore, the lake of fire can be symbolic for dying a second time, (i.e., "the second death"), and what I wrote two paragraphs above in this post furnish good reason to understand the second death as physical since, to reiterate, the lost already would be dead spiritually.

Third, just one verse prior, in Revelation 20:14, Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. If everything thrown into the lake of fire suffers the same fate, do you believe Death and Hades will literally suffer eternal conscious torment, or do you agree the verse uses symbolic imagery, with the literal interpretation being that death ends, becoming no more (c.f. 1 Corinthians 15:26)? Would you agree that Death and Hades become no more rather than suffer eternal conscious torment? If so, then either 1) the lake of fire affects different things differently, or 2) everything thrown into it (including the lost) becomes no more. For these three reasons, I don't find Revelation to prove eternal conscious torment.

Outside of Revelation, you referenced the teaching that, in hell, the worm does not die and the fire isn't quenched (Mark 9:44-48). However, this passage says nothing about conscious torment, so it doesn't help that position. Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24, which is about corpses, not living, conscious beings. Therefore, this passage fits perfectly well with the idea that the lost are literally, physically dead.

Also, you seemed to say that Matthew 10:28 doesn't teach God can "kill" both body and soul in hell but only "destroy" such in hell. However, the verse uses contrasting parallelism, does it not? "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul [i.e., who can only kill/destroy the first of the two]. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e., who can kill/destroy both soul and body]" (NKJV). This would suggest that the "kill" of the first part is the same as the "destroy" of the second part. Regardless, even if all the verse said was just, "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear God," then Jesus would still contrast God with "those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul," implying God is not one who "cannot kill the soul." Do you believe God can "kill the body but cannot kill the soul"? If so, why does Jesus say we shouldn't fear those who can "kill the body but cannot kill the soul"?

Replying to my reference to 1 Timothy 6:13-16, you replied with 1 Corinthians 15:53 and concluded it's therefore "not a good argument to deny that the spirits of the lost will never cease to exist" (emphasis added). However, isn't 1 Corinthians 15 talking about the saved? For example, 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 discusses Christ being firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep, but that resurrection happens with "each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming" (v. 23, emphasis mine). I don't see this passage as proving whether or not the "lost" are immortal. You'd have to go elsewhere. However, as you said, although only God is immortal, "we receive eternal life through our union with Him." Therefore, since we obtain immortality only "through our union with Him" what would this imply for those who don't have a union with Him?

 

[Kilk1]

I don't know about the soul, but the body is not immortal.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23-24).
Our life does not cease with the death of our body, for our spirit is alive and with the Lord, and is rejoined with our spiritual (sinless, immortal, glorious) physical body at the second coming for the resurrection, as Jesus' resurrection body was physical (Luke 24:37-43).

I agree that the saved will experience a physical resurrection with a glorious, immortal resurrection body. How amazing that will be! However, even after this happens, God is still "able to destroy both soul and body in hell," (Matthew 10:28), correct?

As for 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23-24, would you agree that these verses don't apply to the lost? You aren't saying that the lost would be "confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" (emphasis added), right?

 

[Kilk1]

Everyone knows that the wages of sin is death and that sinners will suffer the 2nd death. You interpret this to mean annihilation. Others interpret it to mean eternal separation from God. Rom 6:22-23 does not shed light on which interpretation is correct. Thus, you haven't proved that the majority is incorrect.

Actually, both I and others interpret the "death" of this passage to involve separation from God, and both interpret "death" to involve more as well. The question is whether "death" in this passage means "becoming no more," which is what the term normally means, or whether the term means "suffering torment." I don't see any usage for torment, but there are passages in abundance where "death" means becoming no more.