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Is suicide a sin?

Discussion in 'Hamartiology' started by jayebrownlee, Nov 27, 2002.

Is suicide a sin?

  1. Yes, definately

  2. No, never

  3. Depends on the situation

  4. Not sure

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
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  1. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    God can forgive you for anything Jay. There is only one sin that is unforgivable, and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit--that is, pretending to have a special message from God that supercedes the Bible.

    I don't want to give you license to kill yourself, but I am wondering why you think God won't forgive that particular sin?
     
  2. jayebrownlee

    jayebrownlee Senior Veteran

    +12
    Protestant
    Married
    I think I have already explained that in this thread.

    Jay
     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    Call this a "spiritual discernment" on my part, but---there is a part of you that is looking to do just that. I really believe that "suicide", as are many other things, is not an attitude, but a spirit. Have you read Eph6:12? "We battle not against flesh and blood, but against rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heaveny places.

    And yet, you said: "when I am at my illest I feel cut of from God and I get hung up on Evil and Satan, it makes it hard foir me to pray and sometimes I won't even let other people pray for me. "

    Do you know what you're doing wrong? The BATTLE may be against evil, but the BEST way to fight, is not to fight at all. Please read Luke 10:17-19. Got it? "And the seventy returned with joy, saying 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name!' And Jesus said, 'I saw satan fall like lightning from Heaven; behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy---and NOTHING shall by any means hurt you!' " Isn't that neat, Jay? But we've missed the point---the POINT, is in the NEXT verse, verse 20: "Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice instead that your names are written in Heaven.

    There---that's the key. Don't fight---but, rather, fill your heart so full of the Holy Spirit, and with Jesus, that EVIL FINDS NO PLACE!!!

    "Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you; draw near to God and He will draw near to you!" Jms4:7-8

    You sometimes feel apart from God---so do we. Even the most spirit-filled-evangelist has times of doubt. In "Celebration of Discipline", I believe Campolo calls this, "Dark Night of the Soul". But Jesus has promised to NEVER leave NOR forsake us (Heb13:5). Never. When you feel distant from Him, it is YOU, not Him---just turn around, and seek Him. Pray. Often.

    Pray like this:

    1. Praise and worship---it's why we were made, He rejoices in our presence as we rejoice in His. Do you understand that? Him rejoicing in YOUR presence? Do you have any idea how much He loves you? If He had to die, to save ONLY YOU, Jesus would have---without hesitation.

    2. Thanksgiving---grattitude is the foundation of contentment and happiness. Did you eat today? Are you clothed and warm? Tell Him---He never tires of hearing "Thank You!"

    3. Intercession---prayer does move God---and in bringing others to Him, we shift our focus from our natural SELVES; our love for others grows.

    4. Pettition---how often this comes first---and LAST! He's not a cosmic Santa, He's our DAD! And He has promised to fill our needs. In James it says, "you have not because you ask not, or you ask WRONGLY to spend it on your passions." Don't be afraid---ask Him for healing. But ask in faith---believe He can, BELIEVE HE WILL.

    And then...

    PLEASE seek out a minister who has experience in counselling, one with learning in psychology. I can counsel you to a point---but I have no degree, no psychological training. I can love you as my Christian sister---I can reach out to you and hug you when you are hurting---but I am ill-equipped to mend your heart. And it does need mending. Take your arguing-with-your-family---what is it that is threatened within you? Why can you not just smile and say, "I don't need to argue---if you do not accept me, then that is your problem; for I am loved by God, and it is enough." ? This is something to speak with an experienced counselor. Surely you can call some churches and ask them, and get referrals. Don't be afraid to ask about his experience and schooling.

    Suicide is permanent, Jay. You know what? Someday you ARE going to die---each of us is. (UNLESS we live 'til Jesus returns---a distinct possibility!) Once you have GONE, then so many tomorrows will pass by without you. I want you to think about tomorrow---the joys you have growing close to God. Imagine what you will feel when you stand glistening in your white gown as a man pledges his love to you---and you say, "I DO". Imagine the first stirrings of life within you as you realize that a baby is created in your womb---imagine hearing his sound, smelling that "new-baby-smell". How your heart melts when he first calls you "MAMA!" His first steps. His skinned knee. Or hers. Graduation from high school, then college---and then YOU are at another wedding, so far from now---but YOU ARE THERE to see your child build his or her life too! So many sunrises, so many flowers, so many people that would have been blessed by you. Picture yourself standing before God---but He looks sad. "What is it, Lord?" He points to a long line of people---stretching to "out of sight". "Who are they?" He looks in your eyes, and sadly says: "THESE are the ones whose lives you would have touched---had you only lived." Life is a gift---a very precious one. Please turn right now to Jeremiah 29:11-14. I'm not gonna quote it---read it for yourself. Will you?

    Meanwhile, I WILL pray for you---that He touches your heart, and guides you through healing---of the doubt, the insecurity, the "sense of failure", the "worthlessness". These things I read in you between the lines. You are NOT worthless---for the sole reason that He LOVES YOU!

    Do you understand that there are BEINGS whispering those things in your ear? TELLING you that you are worthless? Does that not make you, a little, angry? Remember, don't fight them---cheat! Turn to GOD, and the battle is ALREADY WON!!!

    It takes action. You gotta lift your foot, move it forward and put it down. Now the other foot. Pick up the phone (with your HAND, not your FOOT! ;) ), and call some churches, find a counselor that will accomodate your income. WE will pray that you be led to just-the-right-one.

    Life is a gift---"chose life" (from Deuteronomy30:15-20---this applies to us too!). Don't throw it away. Think of all the people you will miss, and all the people who will miss you!

    ALL OF US HERE will be praying for you!!! And, if you pray for us, we will gladly receive your prayers!

    Keep us posted, huh? God bless you! I mean that with all my heart!!!

    :)
     
  4. jayebrownlee

    jayebrownlee Senior Veteran

    +12
    Protestant
    Married
    Ben johnson, I do appreciate your prayer, and I have read and understood everything that you have said, but I need to explain something that I think that you have not understood.

    When I overdose and try to end my life, it is NOT me, it is the ILLNESS. I have NO control over myself when I am in this situation, I have on many occaisions required in-patient treatment in psychiatric hospital because I don't know where I am, either physically or in time and I don't know who the people round about me are (which can include my friends, family or fiancé)

    You make sound like I choose to be in this position, I don't. My wedding is booked for 16th August next year and I want more than anything to be there and the rational part of me knows that if I am dead I won'tt be there, however there is part of me that is severly ill and that makes me scared that I may not be there.

    This is not how I want to be living my life, it is how I am being forced to live my life.

    I have tried a Christian counseller and it turned out to be just like the counselling that I am FORCED to go to by the state and therefore just made things confusing.

    Thank you for your prayer it is much appreciated.

    Your sister in Christ

    Jay
     
  5. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    Hi, Jay. I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply that you "choose to be in the position". I wish I had a better answer for you---but of course I can only go as far as my learning allows. I really hope and pray that you do not give up, that you seek other medical and spiritual opinions.

    Then try another counselor. There must be compatibility between a person and their counselor---they must be able to relate. There was someone on this message board complaining about a minister who didn't care---of course I recommended a different minister.

    I've heard of people going to 5 or more counselors, and finally finding one with compatibility---and INSIGHT. One person said, "I'm SO glad I kept looking and didn't give up!"

    Did you read the Jeremiah verse? "I know the plans I have for you---plands for good and not for calamity". God has a plan for you, Jay---a plan for good things. He's written it down.

    What did you think about what I said in regard to "focusing on God rather than on evil"? And about your family---about our naturally seeking validation from those-who-raised-us, when sometimes they are INCAPABLE of it? Did you see yourself in any of that?
     
  6. jayebrownlee

    jayebrownlee Senior Veteran

    +12
    Protestant
    Married
    That is okay, I had misunderstood, but I just wanted to make that clear, not only to you, but to anyone who felt that that was the case, as there are many people out there whop think that mental illness is something that you can just 'snap out of'.


    Finding 1 Christian counseller in my area was a task in itself and finding one that was willing to do it for free, as I live off of State benefit, was even harder and therefore finding another would be near impossible. Not trying to be defeatest, just realistic.

    I know he has, I don't know what they are yet, but I know that they exist and I know that they are going to be amazing, however when I am ill enough to take an OD this means nothing to me as my rational part is not in any kind of control.

    Like I have hinted at before, I have two sides, a completely rational side which knows that God is all powerful and that for that reason Satan has no grasp over me, however I also have an irrational side which is controlled by my illness and that side is shut off from God and Satan has more of a hold on that than I like to think about, I have tried shutting him out, but I just can't do it by myself, and if you look in the prayer requests forum you will see a request for prayer from me for that very reason.

    I would love to say that I don't need anything from my parents as they, particularily my mum, have hurt me so many times that I want to have nothing to do with them any more, and I have tried and I can't do it. I NEED them to be in my life, maybe it is because I am a Christian, I don't know, but I cannot forget about them and I cannot live without them in my life, at least sometimes.

    Your sister in Christ

    Jay
     
  7. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    :D
    Don't give up---a few anonymous phone calls to churches in the yellow pages should turn up something. The best that we-here-on-the-forums can do for you, is to lift you in prayer---both for healing, and that He lead you to a great counselor to assist in your healing.. (Wish there was a way you could see another medical doctor---they are as different as personality allows---I know some doctors that are incredible...)

    Be assured that many of us will pray for you daily...

    God bless you! (Keep us posted!)
     
  8. jayebrownlee

    jayebrownlee Senior Veteran

    +12
    Protestant
    Married
    Thank you, Ben, I do appreciate it.

    Jay
     
  9. caley

    caley Christian Anarchist

    718
    +10
    Protestant
    Is any sin forgivable? If you die without asking for forgiveness for any sin will you be condemned? More specifically, say I'm a devout Christian who has every reason to go to heaven. Then, I get in a fight with my girlfriend which ends with me saying, "I wish you were dead!" (According to Matthew 5; this is the same as murder). Then, before I have a chance to ask forgiveness from her and God, I walk outside and get hit by a bus. Am I going to heaven?

    I know only God knows, but the point is that no matter when we die, there will be unforgiven sins on our slate. God can deal with it.
     
  10. ChristDied4U!

    ChristDied4U! Member

    177
    +0
    Have you tried being annointed yet? At my church we annoint people w/ problems such as yours...who are really sick...have aching body parts...and such. I would just pray about it to God and ask him what to do about it. Cause he definitely does not want you to kill yourself...and the Bbile says that he would not allow us to go through more than we can handle. But I have been annointed 2 or 3 times now...and have been healed on all occasions. As if you read in the Bible several times did Jesus and his disciples heal people. But if you haven't tried to get annointed at your church...I think that might help you w/ your suicidal thoughts and such...but I will definitely pray for you...asking that God show you his love and protect you from Satan...and let you know what he wants you to do about your situation.
     
  11. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    I don't think the issue is whether or not God will forgive suicide---I think the issue is the question, "if God has a plan for us, will that plan include HEALING"? And the answer is an emphatic, YES.

    One who has never dealt with mental illness cannot understand the "lack of choice". Sometimes there is no control. But---life is filled with things that are beyond our control. Here is where our fellowship with Him enters---we are limited, He is NOT. He is INFINITE!!! So great is His love for each of us, I am convicted to the depths of my soul that He WILL HEAL US! Oftimes it is through medicine, psychiatry, or both. Our bodies ARE "chemical plants", and such plants CAN malfunction---sometimes medicine is indicated.

    But we should not be asking "can God forgive suicide"---but, rather, "Can God HEAL suicidal thoughts"!

    With all that I am, I KNOW, beyond all doubt, the answer is YES!!!

    ;) @ Jay...
     
  12. caley

    caley Christian Anarchist

    718
    +10
    Protestant
    Good call, but the question seemed to be asking what if it does happen?  In which case, I think the answer is that God can and will forgive it.  Christ came to die for all sins, and I believe the only question after we die will be, "Will you give your sins to Christ, or retain them?"

    Recommended book:  The Great Divorce by CS Lewis
     
  13. jayebrownlee

    jayebrownlee Senior Veteran

    +12
    Protestant
    Married
    I have thought about it and I will try and find someone, however it is hard to find someone willing to do it in my area, we are a conservative lot here in the NE of Scotland.

    The question origonally was what would happen after but it has developed into what should happen before, I am happy for it to take either road.

    Your sister in Christ

    Jay
     
  14. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    That is awesome, Jay!

    I cannot pretend to understand what you're going through---I can only try to imagine, based on what you have told. I hope and pray that there is a seed planted in your heart. He has made absolute promises, to "NEVER leave and NEVER forsake us". And that we can SEEK Him and we WILL FIND HIM. It is my earnest prayer, that in the midst of your darkness, that seed will spring forth---and you will cry out His name. It doesn't matter whether you feel close to Him, or if you feel far away; He has promised to NEVER BE FAR FROM YOU!!!

    We will continue to pray for you---that you will find better (and compatible)
    doctor(s), that God will be strong in you; that your faith will be strong and true, taller than a giant redwood tree. That He will bring you to healing, to wholeness. He has great and mighty things planned for you, Jay, I believe it. I know it.

    :D
     
  15. jayebrownlee

    jayebrownlee Senior Veteran

    +12
    Protestant
    Married
    I appreciate what you are thinking and wanting for me but I think you should know that my faith has nevere been stronger.

    When I feel well I have never felt closer to God than I do at the moment, it is only my illness that seperates me from God. I am an evangelist through and through and spend all my free time working for God. He has blessed me as I can work for Him full time now that I am unable to work in the traditional sense.

    I have said it many times and I will quite happily say it again, there are many bad things in my life that I don't want or need, but God has blessed me in ways that I could only ever have dreamed of. The well part of me is very much in love with a God that is very much in love with me, it is only my illness that holds me back and I believe that is because Satan knows that one day I will do somethign amazing and he wants to stop me so that I can't hurt his cause. I am going to do everything within my power to work for God and do whatever it is that he has in plan for me.

    Your sister in Christ

    Jay
     
  16. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    :)

    (I LOVE your signature!)
     
  17. jayebrownlee

    jayebrownlee Senior Veteran

    +12
    Protestant
    Married
    It is a quote from a DC Talk song called "What if I stumble?" I love it and I think that this quote is so true

    Jay
     
  18. worshipGod_03

    worshipGod_03 New Member

    6
    +0
    Ok, I believe that suicide IS a sin. WHen a person commits suicide he/she is pretty much giving up. They refuse to give whatever situation they are in to God. God wants us to let him take care of our problems. HE WILL if we let him. There is never any reason we should want to give up on life when Jesus gave us our life, right?


    (no offense or anything)

    About Samson though...I don't want to say that he did or did not commit suicide or anything but before he killed all those people and hisself, he prayed, Ö Sovereign Lord, remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes." Look at it this way, God USED Samson to do away with evil.

    I don't know if that makes since but it does in my head...ya know?

    --Marli
     
  19. jcsaint42

    jcsaint42 New Member

    2
    +0
    I don't believe it is right to say Samson committed suicide. The Philistines believed that their god, Dagon, had delivered their enemy Samson into their hands. After what Samson had done against the Lord, he wanted to make things right. He couldn't let the world believe his God was weaker, so he jumped in front of the bullet so to speak. He sacrificed himself for the good of the Kingdom. Would it be right to say Jesus committed suicide? He knew he ultimate duty was to die on the cross. He went into His ministry knowing He was eventually going to die. That was not suicide, that was sacrifice.

    Suicide is a selfish act (apart from mental illness to an extent). When you take your own life you are setting yourself above God, taking over his job. That is essentially telling God that He cannot heal you and you have a better plan for your life. In the case of mental illness, God made you. Satan May use that illness to twist it and make you feel like you have no control, but ultimately God is in control. Jesus endured unjust ridicule and torture throughout His ministry knowing that in the end He would die. He could have at any moment commanded the angels to protect Him or take Him down from the cross. God could have given up on the human race and said that we were too wicked and destroyed us all. But He didn't because He loved us. We must have that same kind of love for God. Our lives may be hard or our lives may be easy. For whatever life God has given us we must thank Him and endure, and it sounds like that is what you are trying to do. Remember, Jesus didn't get down off the cross, so don't give up on life.

    -jcsaint42
     
  20. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    I think, to a real extent, that all suicides are resultant to "mental illness". It is our nature to desire to survive---thus it goes against our natural instincts. I have no psychiatrical training---but it seems to me that a person gasping for air in the claws of depression, does not have the ability to think rationally. But there are many tangents to this line of thinking---arguably, EVERY PERSON is depressed at some point in their lives. Is it "against God" to remain in depression? Is it a lack of faith in Him, in His plan for our lives that increases the depression? Perhaps; then again, perhaps the answers are as varied as there are individual people.

    I do believe that we bear responsibility in our destinies. We can see if depression exists in our lives, and we are responsible to seek help to overcome it, if possible (the "if possible" because I do not completely understand the nuances of mental illness).

    I think that in the end, only GOD will decide if it is forgiveable.

    My posture on a Christian message board is this---I do not believe we should be giving "allowances" to one who is depressed, especially one who is suicidally depressed. It is my opinion that our focus should be on Spiritual healing, growth and maturity. I think it is counterproductive to discuss "does God ever allow suicide?"

    With great respect to everyone here on this thread and on this message board, motivated solely by Christian concern and love for EACH of you, my brothers and sisters, may I ask that we change the opening question slightly?

    "How can we detect which of our brothers or sisters, or family members, are actually depressed---how can we intervene to help---and how can we do this before the funeral?"


    Wishing only to encourage and build, only to heal and help. Both for those who have posted, and for the hundreds who have read without posting...


    PS: I attended a Grief Recovery seminar---some of our people there were survivors of suicide. For those contemplating the deed, KNOW that the pain to the survivors is incredible.
     
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