Is scripture the highest authority?

[AnticipateHisComing]

Matthew 16:
[When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.]

Does it change the meaning? :/

Does anything in this text say Peter is inerrant?
Who gave this authority to Peter?
Does anything in this text say that Peter could transfer all the authority he was given to another?
When Jesus said "my church" was he just referring to one religious organization, like the RCC or was he talking about the household of believers?
If Peter built everything, than why the other apostles; why other churches outside of Rome, were they not churches of Christ?

The Catholics and others claims to authority well exceed what is actually given in scripture. Further it is inconsistent to claim authority from scripture and then say you have authority above it. Authority goes from the higher to the lower. From one with it to one that does not have it.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Why did Jesus change Simon's name to Cephas(Rock)?

Why did Jesus give Simon alone the keys to the Kingdom?

Why did Jesus tell Simon alone to "strengthen the brethren"?

Why did Jesus tell Simon alone to "feed my sheep"?

Why have the majority of Christians for 2000 years believed that the successor of Peter is the leader of the Christian Church?

Why did Cyprian say this in 250 AD?

“He says to him again after the resurrection, “Feed my sheep.” It is on him that He builds His Church, and to him that He entrusts the sheep to feed. And although He assigns a similar power to all the Apostles, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive any man his sins, they shall be forgiven him; if you retain any man’s sins, they shall be retained.” - yet, in order that the oneness might be unmistakable, He established by His own authority a source for that oneness having its origin in one man alone.”“A primacy is given to Peter, and it is thus made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair.”“If a man does not hold to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the truth? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?”

Did Jesus say Peter would be inerrant?
Did Jesus say that Peter could transfer the "keys to the Kingdom"?
Did Jesus call other apostles?
Did Jesus call Saul to be the apostle to the gentiles?
Are Peter's the only words recorded in scripture?
Was Peter the only that was given the power to do miracles?
Is Peter the one that Jesus loved?
Is Peter the one apostle that did not suffer a tortuous death?
Did not Jesus say there is only one teacher?
Are churches started by the other apostles not Christ' church?
Does not scripture record Peter being the apostle to the Jews; where is the church of the Jews today?

In all the arguments, the Catholics and others have not proven that they are the one ordained church of Jesus that speaks with inerrancy. How can something that is not assured to be without errors, be of higher authority and source of truth than God's word?

Further the glorification of one apostle above others goes against the teachings of Jesus.

 

[pescador]

Grace enables salvation, but we must cooperate with God's free gift of grace.

Does your bible contain these passages?

Romans 2 6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

James 2:24
As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Does your bible contain Ephesians? In chapter 2 -- in context, not single verses lifted out of context -- it says:"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

The book of James is often misinterpreted. James says that after you have been saved you are expected to do good works. This agrees with Ephesians 2:10, quoted above. If you don't actively love your neighbor then your faith is worthless.

In Matthew's gospel Jesus was speaking to the Jews of Jesus time, not to Christians -- there were none. In Matthew 7:15-23 Jesus is speaking about false prophets. He is saying to be careful of people who teach what is contrary to God's will, then come to Jesus expecting to be justified by their actions. It has nothing to do with salvation by grace. Jesus said "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" Do you really think this has anything to do with Christians that have been saved by God's grace? Really?

The single verse that you quote from John, like the others, is out of context. Jesus is explaining to his (pre-Christian) disciples that he and they are one. "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. " Like the teaching about false prophets, this actually proves that nobody is justified by their own works. He continues, "If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples." That has nothing to do with justification by works -- zero!

It is a common error to take single verses out of context without considering to whom they were written/spoken, when they were written spoken (before the cross or after), and why. There is no doctrine of justification by works in scripture. It goes against the most fundamental teaching of the New Covenant.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Jesus started a Church.

Jesus did not start a church in the sense of how we use the word today. You are being deceptive in continuing to say such. What Jesus started was the new covenant with its teachings. He called multiple apostles to spread his teachings. These apostles converted multiple followers in multiple locations, to which John wrote seven letters to seven "churches". What we now call a church with rigid doctrine positions and central authority did not come until much later.

He gave the Church his authority to forgive sins, make rules, teach, and settle disputes.

He told us that when we have a dispute we should listen to the Church. He said that refusing to listen to the Church is grounds for expulsion from the community.

OK, Jesus/Paul gave people different positions in his community of believers. Did Jesus say they were inerrant? Further the disputes taught to be settled by the elders were of non-scriptural nature. The testing of teachings by those in the church are to be done against scripture.

The Catholic Church, which contains the majority of the world's Christians, is now and always has been united under a single hierarchy and a unified dogma. If you want to know what the Church teaches, you can look it up.

Sorry, not true. The Catholic church is not united, especially if you add all the other churches that claim authority from Peter.

That's unity, and that's what Jesus wanted when he said that we should be one as He and the Father are one.

Oh how you love to usurp authority where it is not given. Jesus in no way is promoting or ordaining one religious institution. Read his words closely to see what or who we are to be one with, that would be Jesus and the Father. That is why we are called Christians above Catholics. That is why we are all called brothers in Christ.

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

John 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.​

 

[pescador]

Salvation by faith alone is a protestant innovation that is not part of Christian tradition. Many protestants reject this dogma as well. This is central to the faith, and bible believing Christians hold polar opposite views on this issue.

It's not a Protestant (capitalized!) innovation, it's clearly stated in Scripture. Paul wrote to the believers in Ephesus, "But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ,even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!" There are many other examples that show that grace alone saves us, and we accept that by faith.

It is blasphemy to say that God's grace isn't sufficient for salvation, that something more most be done.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

One of the Issues, that I picked from most interpretations is the numbering of verses & Chapters, which made it so easy to develop anything out of anything, Just to show why it was SOOO WRONG to put numbers will include this:

1 Timothy 3
[Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:

He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.]

Someone justified this chapter as to why The Church is, "The church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." I know if we removed all the numbers you will see which is the true Church!!!

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I believe Catholic teaching. Catholic theologians can be liberal heretics just like protestant theologians.

So only some in the Catholic Church are inerrant and protectors of the truth. How do we determine which are true in the Catholic Church? Once you concede one to errors, you concede all to be capable of errors.

You are missing the point, though. The point is that scripture alone is not an authority. Using scripture alone, and leaning on your own understanding, leads to disunity, confusion, and false teachings.

You miss the point of this thread.

As I have stated many times, two different questions.
1) What is the highest authority on spiritual truth we have on earth.
2) What tools/authorities help in the correct understanding of the incontrovertible truth?

You don't prove that there is a higher source of incontrovertibly truth on earth that we can use. You continuously repeat that there are other authorities and list your church. Certainly traditions, churches, the Holy Spirit all help in understanding the truth, but that is not the question of this thread.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yhwh Guards and Honors His Word (Scripture)
even
more than He Guards and Honors His Own Name.

So tradition that opposes and contradicts His Word is out - no place for it anywhere except the trash (where Yhwh and Yeshua put it).

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Yhwh Guards and Honors His Word (Scripture)
even more than He Guards

the churches that "guard" his word.

 

[pescador]

One of the Issues, that I picked from most interpretations is the numbering of verses & Chapters, which made it so easy to develop anything out of anything, Just to show why it was SOOO WRONG to put numbers will include this:

1 Timothy 3
[Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:

He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.]

Someone justified this chapter as to why The Church is, "The church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." I know if we removed all the numbers you will see which is the true Church!!!

Thanks for posting this! Bible chapters were created in 1227 CE and verses were created at two separate times: 1448 for the Old Testament and 1551 for the New Testament. In other words, more than 1000 years after the last book of the New Testament was created!

Unfortunately, roughly 2000 years later people are still using those numbers to divide up the ancient manuscripts, pulling individual verses out of context to prove biblical doctrine. It's ridiculous!

The most common violation of the original authors' work is the King James Bible, where each verse is printed separately, leading to 400 years of error. Fortunately, most modern (and more accurate) translations have done away with his verse-by-verse format. Hopefully this will lead people to greater understanding of God's word and accuracy when they post.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

the churches that "guard" his word.

sorry. you left the park there. (departed from Scripture)

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

sorry. you left the park there. (departed from Scripture)

Do you think God protects religious institutions keeping them all in the truth?
John is quite clear in his seven letters to the seven churches that if they abandon the truth they will be cut off.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you think God protects religious institutions keeping them all in the truth?.....

No.
Yhwh LOVES PEOPLE. He hates religion.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Michael Collum. Yes, Jesus is the highest authority, and Jesus told us: "Be like little children."
In Matthew 22: 35-40:Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all your hearts, with all your souls, and with all your minds. The second is like it: love your neighbour as yourselves." ( neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friend and not friend) That is straightforward and easy to understand. In Matthew 7: 7-10:
we are told: " Ask and you shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. We keep doing this, God will approve and Bless us. Love is very catching, and soon it will be our second nature to love and care: we ask and thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour.
The Bible tells us to "Repent and be Born Again," we give up our selfish wishes and wants, and start loving and caring,
be kind and always friendly and understanding. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on be loving and caring. The scripture is the highest authority and God is Love. God wants loving men and women, and Jesus told us to be like little children, none of those hard to understand words and sentences. I say this with love, MichaelCollum. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Goodbook]

In the Sola Scriptura thread a claim was made that scripture is not the highest authority we have now. I was flabbergasted that Christians would make such a claim, as I believe scripture to be God's word. While there were multiple writers of scripture, the author of the words are none other than God who used the Holy Spirit to direct the writers. Of course scripture attests to this in multiple places.

My belief that scripture is the highest authority that we Christians now living have is based on the truth that God is supreme. In the absence of God's physical presence, we have God's word as next highest authority, John 1:17, John 17:17, John 8:31-32, Mat 24:35. God's words are in places direct quotes of Jesus in the first four books of the N.T. God's words are also Jesus working through the Holy Spirit to speak through the 13 apostles, who Jesus gave special authority, 2 cor 13:3.

The greatest special authority the apostles had was to write down scripture, speak God's word. This was completed 60 years after Jesus' departure. While the canon of scripture was not declared until later, God's words in the N.T. scriptures were circulating and being used before the later date that certain church leaders took it upon themselves to throw out the trash that had been added to the list of "scripture" over time. Understand that the authority to throw out trash is lower than the authority to speak God's word. For by the diligent reading of God's words, we could all attain the understanding needed to test false teachings and throw out the trash. Scripture in fact gives this task to all, to test what you are being taught against scripture.

Some falsely claim that others today continue with the same authority as the first apostles, and that the Holy Spirit speaks through them with equal truth. I ask what proof of their authority do we have? Were they called directly by Jesus? Do they perform the miracles like Jesus did. Are their words added to the canon?

I believe what scripture says, that the Holy Spirit continues to speak through many Christians today including religious leaders of all denominations. The question is how can one be certain of what anyone says at any given time is the truth? There is only one that can not lie, God. Given that we live in a fallen world and continue to sin, there is no proof that what anyone of any religious knowledge or authority always speaks the truth. To me the whole issue of the SS battle is just one of incontrovertible truth. As God and scripture testifies to its truth, I see no argument proving that there is incontrovertible truth anywhere else except in God's words.

We can always be certain that God's word in scripture is always true. How can this be said for anything else?

Well, thats shocking. They just called God a liar, so dont presume they are christian just because they on CF. maybe they secret athiests trolling as christians trying to provoke us.

Its not going to work.

 

[Job8]

I was flabbergasted that Christians would make such a claim, as I believe scripture to be God's word.

You have every right and every reason to be flabbergasted. If Scripture is God's Word, and God is the supreme authority in the universe, it should be obvious that there can be no higher authority than Scripture.

However the authority of Scripture began to be attacked by rationalistic and theological liberal *scholars* from the 18th century onwards. Furthermore the Traditionalist churches had already elevated *Holy Tradition* to the same level as Scripture, but in practical terms tradition trumped Scripture. So there you have it.

Today the Bible is under attack from within and from without. We should not be surprised since we are in the midst of the Great Apostasy before the Second Coming of Christ. What should Christians do? Stand firm on the Word of God, and let the naysayers alone. They are blind leaders of the blind who will both fall into the ditch.

 

[Thursday]

You have the same in the branches of Catholics that also have differences in doctrine.

No such thing. All Catholics share identical doctrine.

 

[Thursday]

Thursday, So be it!

But let me ask, shouldn't it have been difficult to tell the difference between the Church and the Bible by now? I look at some traditions, some sound like the LORD and others, I have no words. :/

I don't know what you are referring to. Catholics believe the bible is the Word of God.

We also believe that Jesus established the Catholic Church to spread the gospel.

 

[Thursday]

When you say, 'multiple contradictory doctrines, divisions among followers of Jesus, confusion, and false teachings' do you mean those doctrines, divisions, confusion and false teachings that are made by the Ekklesia (among others)?

No, there are no false teachings or contradictory doctrines in the Church.

I'm referring to the hundreds of sects that came about as a result of the Reformation.

 

[Thursday]

So Peter Kreeft is a liberal and heretic. If coming out with something like, "When the Catholic Church speaks, that's Jesus Christ speaking," doesn't make him a conservative, one wonders what would.

Peter Kreeft is an orthodox Catholic. He doesn't teach anything that contradicts Catholic doctrine. He is also a former Calvinist and a theologian who graduated from Calvin College.