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Is scripture the highest authority?

Is scripture the highest authority we now have on earth?

  • 1) Yes

    Votes: 39 72.2%
  • 2) No

    Votes: 15 27.8%

  • Total voters
    54

pescador

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Then use the ESV or the RSV. There is no King James/NIV dichotomy. The NIV is a foul translation, you don't need to use it just because you don't want to use the King James Bible.

The reason it doesn't "make sense" is mainly because the education system is abysmal. We should be able to understand Shakespeare, which means the King James Bible ought to be a breeze (since it uses a much, much smaller vocabulary than Shakespeare, and is in parataxis style as opposed Shakespeare's syntaxis). Also note that the King James Bible didn't shy away from using idioms that are purely Biblical, such as "he knew her" (sex), and "seed" (for descendants). People did not talk like that in everyday speech in the early 17th Century, but the King James Bible didn't change these idioms to pander. This was back when most people had zero education outside their trade, they commonly didn't even know how to read, they heard the Bible being read by the preacher or by a member of their family could read. They didn't find these idioms a stumbling block; to understand them, you either asked, or you studied the Bible harder--and guess what, if you asked those people, even the uneducated ones, if the Bible should be less literally translated to make it easier, do you think they would agree? No, they held the Bible as sacred.

The Bible is not meant to be baroque (and in fact this translation, though during the Baroque period, completely forgoes Baroque period prose to follow Biblical style); on the other hand, it's not meant to be Fun with Dick and Jane. The Bible is simple, yet sophisticated, it includes a lot of literary devices and wordplay, these aren't frills, they are conveying a worldview, a way of looking at things. While simplifying the Bible is tempting so it can "reach a wider audience", we must keep in mind that the Bible is not a magazine for an airport, it is not meant to be readily comprehended, it is meant to be studied extensively and for your understanding to grow with the study. If you don't even have the patience to study the Bible enough to understand Early Modern English (which plenty of fairly uneducated Christians do, since it is not another language, it's just a variant of modern English), then it's unlikely you have the patience and concentration to study the Bible as deeply as it is intended to be studied.

I totally disagree with you. Talk to most people who have tried reading the KJV and they will tell you that they don't read it because it is full of archaic language that they don't understand. The Bible was meant to be understood; there is no education or tenacity involved. If it's not understood by those who try to read it, it doesn't serve the purpose that God intended.

The NIV is the largest-selling Bible in history -- for good reason. (Although you wrongly assume that it's my preferred translation) It was developed by an excellent team of scholars and refined several times, so I dismiss your unsubstantiated "foul translation" comment (which clearly shows your lack of objectivity). You can continue to dwell in your "works" attitude to reading and understanding God's word, although it has no biblical or historical basis.

BTW, why don't you write and speak using KJV language if it's so desirable? Try it and see people's reaction!

I won't discuss the issue any further.
 
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Thursday

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Thursday

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This is such an unhelpful and far too common phrase, even used by Reformed believers. A phrase that more precisely expresses Reformation theology on it's own terms, instead of outside voices that are only familiar enough to present a straw filled version of Reformation theology: justification, by God, through faith alone.


My point is that on this central matter of Christian faith there are multiple, often opposite views, held by groups that claim the bible is their sole authority.

Sola scriptura is unbiblical and it doesn't work.
 
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Thursday

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Do Catholics and Orthodox understand what it means to be saved by faith and grace of the LORD? It just means that as long as Christians have the Spirit, sin no longer has power over them hence saved by faith through grace. The Spirit conforms us to his ways and to the Divine. Even though Christians will still battle with sin the Holy Spirit makes it easier to overcome it. So when you are led by the spirit you are stronger than a person led by the lustful desires of man's nature, That's all! Do I make sense :/


You make sense, but you are missing the point.

Some protestants, Calvinists for instance, say that God chooses the elect with no regard for their actions on earth, yet they claim to believe the bible is the Word of God.

Other protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, believe that we will be judged for our actions and they reject the divinity of Christ.

Two bizarre beliefs from the same scriptures.
 
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Thursday

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It's not petty at all. Nothing in the Bible or God's kingdom is petty. We are saved by God's grace, period. One cannot be saved by earning it, otherwise God would be obligated. He isn't!

Grace enables salvation, but we must cooperate with God's free gift of grace.

Does your bible contain these passages?

Romans 2 6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

James 2:24
As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.
 
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lesliedellow

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Salvation by faith alone is a protestant innovation that is not part of Christian tradition. Many protestants reject this dogma as well. This is central to the faith, and bible believing Christians hold polar opposite views on this issue.

So you won't believe a Catholic theologian whenit doesn't suit you. So much for the unquestionable authority of "Mother Church."
 
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Thursday

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So you won't believe a Catholic theologian whenit doesn't suit you. So much for the unquestionable authority of "Mother Church."

I believe Catholic teaching. Catholic theologians can be liberal heretics just like protestant theologians.

You are missing the point, though. The point is that scripture alone is not an authority. Using scripture alone, and leaning on your own understanding, leads to disunity, confusion, and false teachings.
 
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Linet Kihonge

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I have no idea what the issue is anymore? Okay, perhaps I get the argument could be aiming at the weaknesses of interpretation of scripture alone to determine the true teachings. However, there's another point both Protestants and the CC have been missing. The truth is, both of us have built traditions based on a verse or verses. We've built a tradition on petitions to the departed Saints based on the teachings of the early fathers and a few conversations found in the Word between the Saints and the Righteous men in "Heaven." Protestants have a whole denomination on Prosperity and Ordination of Women Shepherds based on a few verses that the Kingdom of God had no great or small, all were born to be rich and famous.

Despite capacities to trace ancestry to St. Peters, the Bible refers only too many times as Jesus being the Rock and the Word being the Solid Foundation. Despite 1,000,000 verses on the equality of mankind, the Bible mentions not once or twice on the structure of the Holy Institutions but many times. Therefore, I don't have an issue with people being Christians I have an issue with people being Christians with solid foundation being one verse or two scriptures from the bible. The Bible is the LORD's Doctrine! :(
 
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Propianotuner

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My point is that on this central matter of Christian faith there are multiple, often opposite views, held by groups that claim the bible is their sole authority.

The mere existence of multiple viewpoints doesn't mean they all have the same merits.

Sola scriptura is unbiblical and it doesn't work.

It's "unbiblical" because people are capable of misinterpreting scripture? How do you even define "biblical" with this kind of logic?

If people who tout Sola Ekklesia fall into theological error does that make that element of their thought wrong, or their thinking "unbiblical"? Of course not! The form and content of their reasoning must be assessed on a case by case basis given the topics and their respective conclusions. Merely saying "there must be some of you falling into error because look, there's disagreement" is absurd logic because it does nothing to establish whether or not you are in error yourself, and how we know what is and isn't erroneous.

In Reformed Christianity there is general agreement on several theological issues, with clear exceptions that shouldn't be singled out to judge the whole. Unrepresentative cherry picking of this kind can be quite intellectually dishonest.

In order for Sola Ekklesia to be validated, it has to be demonstrated how the Teaching Magisterium is efficacious to rightly divide the word. Within debates contrasting Sola Ekklesia and Sola Scriptura the former has no epistemological grounds as some kind of unquestionable, default state of reasoning. Both viewpoints have the impetus to show their respective merits.

What's the primary reason I am more in favor of Sola Scriptura? Because it is part of a tradition that emphasizes critical, academically informed methods of appraisal which are part of a force that has revived a constant concern for peering into history to see what we can of how people in biblical periods thought, lived, and expressed themselves. It has revived language studies and it is not so complacent, so self assured that it will accept as authoritative translations of scripture that demonstrate clear methodological errors (yes, I'm referring to the Latin Vulgate of Jerome), for over a thousand years. It is expressive of the Christian concept of humility inasmuch as it allows self doubt into the picture and properly recognizes that we are creatures.

It has been my experience that Sola Ekklesia involves constantly characterizing the Church Fathers in a new light, changing ever so slightly in shade over time with new theological developments because the very rightness, the self assurance of the Teaching Magisterium's dogma is so assertively presupposed that history simply has to agree with it. People weren't even allowed to read the scriptures themselves so they were kept in a dead language for centuries.

What's my main problem with Sola Ekklesia, though? It is presented in a literally unfalsifiable manner. From my perspective that kind of reasoning is the very height of presumption.
 
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Thursday

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Despite capacities to trace ancestry to St. Peters, the Bible refers only too many times as Jesus being the Rock and the Word being the Solid Foundation.

Why did Jesus change Simon's name to Cephas(Rock)?

Why did Jesus give Simon alone the keys to the Kingdom?

Why did Jesus tell Simon alone to "strengthen the brethren"?

Why did Jesus tell Simon alone to "feed my sheep"?

Why have the majority of Christians for 2000 years believed that the successor of Peter is the leader of the Christian Church?

Why did Cyprian say this in 250 AD?

“He says to him again after the resurrection, “Feed my sheep.” It is on him that He builds His Church, and to him that He entrusts the sheep to feed. And although He assigns a similar power to all the Apostles, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive any man his sins, they shall be forgiven him; if you retain any man’s sins, they shall be retained.” - yet, in order that the oneness might be unmistakable, He established by His own authority a source for that oneness having its origin in one man alone.”“A primacy is given to Peter, and it is thus made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair.”“If a man does not hold to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the truth? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?”
 
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Thursday

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The mere existence of multiple viewpoints doesn't mean they all have the same merits.



It's "unbiblical" because people are capable of misinterpreting scripture? How do you even define "biblical" with this kind of logic?

I.

It is unbiblical because it is not taught in the bible.
 
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Propianotuner

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It is unbiblical because it is not taught in the bible.

-How does it "not work"?
-Where is Sola Ekklesia taught in the Bible?
-If Sola Scriptura isn't biblical, how does that make Sola Ekklesia some kind of default state, not even realistically open to scrutiny?
 
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Thursday

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-How does it "not work"?
-Where is Sola Ekklesia taught in the Bible?
-If Sola Scriptura isn't biblical, how does that make Sola Ekklesia some kind of default state, not even realistically open to scrutiny?


What is Sola Ekklesia?

Sola Scripture does not work because it leads to multilple contradictory doctrines, divisions among followers of Jesus, confusion, and false teachings.
 
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lesliedellow

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I believe Catholic teaching. Catholic theologians can be liberal heretics just like protestant theologians.

So Peter Kreeft is a liberal and heretic. If coming out with something like, "When the Catholic Church speaks, that's Jesus Christ speaking," doesn't make him a conservative, one wonders what would.

You are missing the point, though. The point is that scripture alone is not an authority. Using scripture alone, and leaning on your own understanding, leads to disunity, confusion, and false teachings.

Does the name Hans Kung mean anything to you?
 
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Propianotuner

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What is Sola Ekklesia?

Sola Ekklesia is the doctrine that the Church is not only authoritative on matters of faith, but as a body of believers it is the organism that defines scripture.

Sola Scripture does not work because it leads to multilple contradictory doctrines, divisions among followers of Jesus, confusion, and false teachings.

Does Sola Scriptura itself lead to multiple contradictory doctrines, or does human error itself lead to contradiction? Isn't it illogical to say "because there are multiple viewpoints they all must be wrong" without even entertaining the thought that one of them could even conceivably be right?

And couldn't it conversely be argued that Sola Ekklesia has led to schisms? Why else were we stuck with a 1000+ year old translation in a dead language, of which even Catholic scholars today will agree had serious limitations and linguistic errors? I mean, it's hard to see how that kind of stubbornness wouldn't cause a schism. What of the East/West Schism, and the Church of the East having been considered heretical Nestorians practically since time immemorial even though at this point it's been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that their theology was essentially Nicene, aside from moot semantic differences no more insidious than the West and the East disagreeing over the filioque clause?
 
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Thursday

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Sola Ekklesia is the doctrine that the Church is not only authoritative on matters of faith, but as a body of believers it is the organism that defines scripture.



Does Sola Scriptura itself lead to multiple contradictory doctrines, or does human error itself lead to contradiction? Isn't it illogical to say "because there are multiple viewpoints they all must be wrong" without even entertaining the thought that one of them could even conceivably be right?

And couldn't it conversely be argued that Sola Ekklesia has led to schisms? Why else were we stuck with a 1000+ translation in a dead language that even Catholic scholars today will agree had serious limitations and linguistic errors? I mean, it's hard to see how that kind of stubbornness wouldn't cause a schism. What of the East/West Schism, and the Church of the East having been considered heretical Nestorians practically since time immemorial even though at this point it's been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that their theology was essentially Nicene, aside from moot semantic differences no more insidious than the West and the East disagreeing over the filioque clause?

Jesus started a Church. He gave the Church his authority to forgive sins, make rules, teach, and settle disputes.

He told us that when we have a dispute we should listen to the Church. He said that refusing to listen to the Church is grounds for expulsion from the community.

The Catholic Church, which contains the majority of the world's Christians, is now and always has been united under a single hierarchy and a unified dogma. If you want to know what the Church teaches, you can look it up.

That's unity, and that's what Jesus wanted when he said that we should be one as He and the Father are one.
 
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Peter Johnson

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Sola Scripture does not work because it leads to multiple contradictory doctrines, divisions among followers of Jesus, confusion, and false teachings.

When you say, 'multiple contradictory doctrines, divisions among followers of Jesus, confusion, and false teachings' do you mean those doctrines, divisions, confusion and false teachings that are made by the Ekklesia (among others)?

My point is this, "Sola Ekklesia" guarantees nothing as far as the assurity of the purity of doctrines and teachings, and the lack of divisions and confusion. Just look at the state of the Ekklesia over the centuries and that is surely self evident to the thinking person.

But that is not to say that the Ekklesia cannot apprehend the truth of the Scriptures, because it is the Holy Spirit who enlightens not the Ekklesia. The Ekklesia nor any particular head of the Ekklesia can penetrate the heart and mind of man. That is the role and work of Holy Spirit in conjunction with the Word, and uniquely so in every respect.
 
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Linet Kihonge

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Matthew 16:
[When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.]

Does it change the meaning? :/
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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My point is that on this central matter of Christian faith there are multiple, often opposite views, held by groups that claim the bible is their sole authority.

Sola scriptura is unbiblical and it doesn't work.
You have the same in the branches of Catholics that also have differences in doctrine. A claim to a special authority from God to be the ordained maintainer of spiritual truth for all believers by one church is proved false since multiple churches claim this. If there was such a thing as inerrancy of apostles, this would not happen. If the succeeding generations of "hands laid on" apostles were perfect, one truth would be propagated.

The fact is that no man is inerrant, including the first 12 apostles. Scripture does not teach this. Scripture actually shows errors and disagreements in them. What can be assured is that what the original apostles said and wrote as recorded in scripture is the inerrant message of God and often Jesus' words which are incontrovertibly true.

Again, I will repeat what you have not refuted. Just because people twist or incorrectly receive/read/interpret God's word, does in no way reflect on the authenticity or truth of God's word. To argue the efficacy of scripture is a completely different question, one not in this thread.
 
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