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Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas?

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Standing Up

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from OP- 3. "I find no credible reason to believe that the NT is MISSING super important, critical DOGMAS taught by Jesus plus all 12-14 of the Apostles. No credible reason to believe the whole "God messed up.... God forgot" insistence. "

Josiah-

Please show us where scripture says "I am not missing dogmas taught by Jesus plus all 12-14 of the Apostles?" So far, you've shown zip about this. Your claim is baseless.
 
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sunlover1

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It is a foundational, dogmatic insistence in some Christian communities/denominations that while the Bible is inerrant and inspired by God, that it nonetheless is MISSING a whole bunch of really super important things that Jesus taught and that we must know and believe....


The spin goes like this....


God, the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures:


The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible; it is His inscripturated words to the faithful. And He did so inerrantly. And thus, it is infallible. But.... the thing is....... well....... the Holy Spirit did a lousy job. Because He just forgot a whole mess of really, really, really important dogmas - essential, de fide dogmas - matters of highest importance possible and greatest certainty of fact possible, matters impacting the salvation of souls. Just.... forgot! Jesus taught these (we just have NOTHING that REMOTELY indicates that)..... and thus all 12-14 Apostles taught them (we just have NOTHING that REMOTELY indicates that)..... it's just that the Holy Spirit.... well...... forgot. He told us how many fish the disciples caught one day (153) but forgot a mess of super important, critical DOGMAS we gotta believe.


What to do?


Realizing the error, God could have done a re-write. But that would have been a lot of work. God just let it stand - and hoped for the best.


"Oral"

But...... while the Holy Spirit forgot, there was/were Christian(s) who remembered! And somehow (no one knows how)...... these super important DOGMAS Jesus and all the Apostles taught that the Holy Spirit forgot to include in Scripture.... well, they survived!

Eventually (maybe many, many centuries later), one denomination kinda learned about one or more of these!!!!! And eventually (maybe many, many centuries later) it itself decided to tell Christians about this!

This is sometimes called "Apostolic Tradition" (although it can NEVER, EVER be related to ANY much less all of the Apostles). It is sometimes also called "Second Testimony"

This missing stuff tends to be whatever is UNIQUE DOGMA in that specific denomination. "Jesus taught this as de fide dogma - it's just part of the forgot stuff but this denomination learned it somehow - and here it is." Oddly, these "forgotten dogmas" are never the same....


Stools

Some communities that buy into all the above (and they do so passionately and foundationally) state that because the Bible is so.... well, see above about God forgetting..... therefore we need TWO (maybe 3 - we'll get to that) EQUAL and SUPPLIMENTAL sources for our dogma:

1. Scripture (which is good - as far as it goes)
2. Oral Stuff (which is the forgotten stuff, equally important but usually more clear).

These are like two streams that blend into one inseparable river - one source, one revelation, one truth. All the equal teachings of Jesus and the Apostles and the Early Church (it's just that..... sadly...... we have NOTHING - absolutely nothing at all that indicates that Jesus or any of the Aposltes or anyone in the First Century and often for long after that ever even heard of any of these "oral stuff" Dogmas).

Now, some add a third stool: themselves (or the leaders self chooses from among self that are pleadged to agree with self). It just reinforces the ME part.



What do you think of all that?


Here is what I think....

1. I think there WAS a Christian "proclamation" for the 10 years or so between Easter and the first NT Book was penned and the NT began to take shape. This is called "the kerygma" Thing is: we don't know EXACTLY what "it" was for one simple reason, it was never recorded. But I find no reason to believe it included a whole bunch of super important DOGMAS that became lost (or at least with ZERO evidence - for CENTURIES).

2. I don't think the Holy Spirit forgot Dogmas. Yes, John tells us that Jesus DID some things not recorded in THAT specific singular book (the Gospel of John) but that's a whole other enchilada than insisting that THEREFORE God forgot a bunch of critical DOGMAS from the ENTIRE Bible.

3. I find no credible reason to believe that the NT is MISSING super important, critical DOGMAS taught by Jesus plus all 12-14 of the Apostles. No credible reason to believe the whole "God messed up.... God forgot" insistence.

4. I DO think that as time moved on, beyond the period of the Apostles, it is almost certain that questions and issues arose that no Apostle could be asked about (not that such would necessarily know) and that Scripture didn't address. Heaven knows, the Second, Third, Fourth Centuries were likely the most chaotic time in all of Christian history - there WERE questions and debates, and not always did those 27 books adequately address these. IMO, there were some very wise men with enormous insights and faith that often prevailed - applying Scripture. Some call these "Early Church Fathers." And I'm grateful for the Roman Emperors calling meetings in the Fourth - Seventh Centuries (we cal these the Seven ECUMENICAL Councils) that I think also did some very wise and very helpful work. But while I hold this in great esteem - I do NOT regard them as THEREFORE what JESUS and the 12-14 APOSTLES and every Christian in the First Century believed. NOT part of the "Oops, the Holy Spirit just forgot to include" stuff. And it means I place these UNDER Scripture - not EQUAL to such. Our words - however wise - are NOT ergo Jesus', it is not Jesus' job to parrot what WE eventually said - however wise we regard such.



I look forward to your responses.....


Pax


- Josiah

I believe that we need, more than anything, to learn to HEAR God.
He so longs to tabernacle and fellowship with us.
His thoughts are as great as the grains of sand on the beach,
toward each of us,.. Why are we NOT seeing that that means
that He's thinking of us continually, that His eyes are always upon
us and that His ear is turned to us?

Any denomination that exalts man's authority is suspect imo.
God is our Redeemer/Teacher/Lord/Shepherd/Comforter etc.
It's HE who tells us who to submit to and who to walk away from.

Is this thread about "Sacred tradition"?
I have never been able to find a list of what that actually includes.
Maybe because it was never recorded.
 
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fhansen

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I believe that we need, more than anything, to learn to HEAR God.
He so longs to tabernacle and fellowship with us.
His thoughts are as great as the grains of sand on the beach,
toward each of us,.. Why are we NOT seeing that that means
that He's thinking of us continually, that His eyes are always upon
us and that His ear is turned to us?

Any denomination that exalts man's authority is suspect imo.
God is our Redeemer/Teacher/Lord/Shepherd/Comforter etc.
It's HE who tells us who to submit to and who to walk away from.

Is this thread about "Sacred tradition"?
I have never been able to find a list of what that actually includes.
Maybe because it was never recorded.
The CC does not exalt man's authority. Anyone who believes they can understand and therefore act upon Scripture-or on Tradition for that matter, is undertaking the same task.
 
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sunlover1

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The CC does not exalt man's authority. Anyone who believes they can understand and therefore act upon Scripture-or on Tradition for that matter, is undertaking the same task.
I was talking about ANY denomination or even local unaffiliated church.
MANY churches do indeed exalt men.
I can probably even show you examples, but not today, I'm posting
on borrowed time. gosh this place is addictive! lol.

I am sorry, I don't know that I understand the second sentence above.
Are you saying that anyone who believes that they can understand Scripture
is "exalting man"???
 
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fhansen

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I was talking about ANY denomination or even local unaffiliated church.
MANY churches do indeed exalt men.
I can probably even show you examples, but not today, I'm posting
on borrowed time. gosh this place is addictive! lol.

I am sorry, I don't know that I understand the second sentence above.
Are you saying that anyone who believes that they can understand Scripture
is "exalting man"???
They're placing themselves in the same position in any case-because they, then, are assuming, consciously or not, that they have the authority to interpret.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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They're placing themselves in the same position in any case-because they, then, are assuming, consciously or not, that they have the authority to interpret.

It's ONE of the reasons I left the RCC. It's the only church, denomination, sect or cult to do that (CCC 85). The earliest LDS did this too (so for awhile the RCC was not alone) but the LDS stopped that claim about a century ago, leaving the RCC as the only example.


But, please, back to the issue of the thread....



A blessed Easter to you and yours :)


- Josiah
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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God exalts himself and consequently exalts the body of Christ which is the Church.

I see nothing that remotely suggests God exalts any denomination - including the RCC. But it certainly does exalt itself.




But that is a dogma that's in the holy scriptures so not really a topic for this thread., right?


I'd question if it is a dogma of SCRIPTURE that denominations are to exalt self or declare self unaccountable or exempt from truth or the sole interpreter of Scripture or the sole arbiter if it itself is right.... but yes, this thread is about faith communities that claim distinctive, unique Dogmas of it itself sourced from Dogmas Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit forgot to include in his Scripture. Yes, if you think the Holy Spirit forgot to mention the RC Denomination (oddly) - I suppose that could be included in the topic of this thread.



A blessed Easter to you and yours :)


- Josiah
 
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Souldier

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from OP- 3. "I find no credible reason to believe that the NT is MISSING super important, critical DOGMAS taught by Jesus plus all 12-14 of the Apostles. No credible reason to believe the whole "God messed up.... God forgot" insistence. "

Josiah-

Please show us where scripture says "I am not missing dogmas taught by Jesus plus all 12-14 of the Apostles?" So far, you've shown zip about this. Your claim is baseless.


What is missing from scripture? We are taught about faith, love, hope. We are taught wisdom and about godliness, holiness and grace. We are also given many many examples to follow and also to learn from. We are given clear direction from the Lord and the apostles. What else do we need? John says that we need no teacher, all we need is that which was taught in the beginning. And we are taught that from the scriptures. Jesus says that if we love him we will keep his words, and then the holy spirit will come in and teach us Himself. He says that He and the father will come in and live inside us. Isnt that an example of the scriptures clearly telling us that they have all we need?
 
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BobRyan

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God exalts himself and consequently exalts the body of Christ which is the Church. But that is a dogma that's in the holy scriptures so not really a topic for this thread., right?

When we say scripture - you say "what scripture"

When you say "church" -- we say "what church".

Far more division on church - than scripture.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Root of Jesse

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That looks like a "doctrines in the Bible" statement to me.

That is the sort of sola-scriptura affirmation of Catholic doctrine that proves to be rare - but I thought it would be as common as rain prior to coming here.

in Christ,

Bob

No, he said some form. Could be the elements are there, just as I said. Could be examples of dogmas are present, such as Elijah being assumed into heaven bodily.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I believe that we need, more than anything, to learn to HEAR God.
He so longs to tabernacle and fellowship with us.
His thoughts are as great as the grains of sand on the beach,
toward each of us,.. Why are we NOT seeing that that means
that He's thinking of us continually, that His eyes are always upon
us and that His ear is turned to us?

Any denomination that exalts man's authority is suspect imo.
God is our Redeemer/Teacher/Lord/Shepherd/Comforter etc.
It's HE who tells us who to submit to and who to walk away from.

Is this thread about "Sacred tradition"?
I have never been able to find a list of what that actually includes.
Maybe because it was never recorded.

It's called the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

By the way, God DOES tabernacle with us. All he wants is for us to come to Him. We go to Him when we go to Mass or Adoration of the Eucharist.
 
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Souldier

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When we say scripture - you say "what scripture"

When you say "church" -- we say "what church".

Far more division on church - than scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

Maybe when he says "what scripture?" he's referring to things that Catholicism has added to Christianity that protestants do not follow. Dont Catholics believe that things written by the Pope are "new" scriptures that get added as the Pope exercises his apostolic authority which can establish new doctrine? If so then there is much disagreement on scripture as well, according to the definition of scripture. Perhaps i misunderstand what Catholicism teaches about the Pope's authority to write new holy scripture. Im not sure.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I think that when we seek truth at all costs then we will be faced with the challenge of questioning our own beliefs and our own church leaders too. Truth is what matters above all else. Value that and you find freedom, in my opinion.

Truth is what matters yet to suppose that our church and the leaders thereof are less in love with God and less able to discern truth than we must be a sign of a too high an estimate of ourselves.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Truth is what matters yet to suppose that our church and the leaders thereof are less in love with God and less able to discern truth than we must be a sign of a too high an estimate of ourselves.


1. As I read what the RCC itself claims about it itself individually and exclusively - I think it quite natural to wonder if such is a sign of too high an estimate of itself..... Especially in light of the profound lack of anything it offers to substantiate it.

2. I doubt many suppose a lack of love or sincerity on the part of Catholics or the RC Denomination. But then I think the same would be the case for Mormons and the LDS Denomination or even Muslims and the various Islamic denominations. But then as you indicated, TRUTH is the issue: not sincerity or even respective egos. I don't agree that the denomination with the most radical ego is thus more likely to be truthful.


But it would be just swell if there was some discussion of the opening post.....



Thank you ever so much!


Blessings


- Josiah
 
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