Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas?

[CaliforniaJosiah]

It is a foundational, dogmatic insistence in some Christian communities/denominations that while the Bible is inerrant and inspired by God, that it nonetheless is MISSING a whole bunch of really super important things that Jesus taught and that we must know and believe....


The spin goes like this....


God, the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures:


The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible; it is His inscripturated words to the faithful. And He did so inerrantly. And thus, it is infallible. But.... the thing is....... well....... the Holy Spirit did a lousy job. Because He just forgot a whole mess of really, really, really important dogmas - essential, de fide dogmas - matters of highest importance possible and greatest certainty of fact possible, matters impacting the salvation of souls. Just.... forgot! Jesus taught these (we just have NOTHING that REMOTELY indicates that)..... and thus all 12-14 Apostles taught them (we just have NOTHING that REMOTELY indicates that)..... it's just that the Holy Spirit.... well...... forgot. He told us how many fish the disciples caught one day (153) but forgot a mess of super important, critical DOGMAS we gotta believe.


What to do?


Realizing the error, God could have done a re-write. But that would have been a lot of work. God just let it stand - and hoped for the best.


"Oral"

But...... while the Holy Spirit forgot, there was/were Christian(s) who remembered! And somehow (no one knows how)...... these super important DOGMAS Jesus and all the Apostles taught that the Holy Spirit forgot to include in Scripture.... well, they survived!

Eventually (maybe many, many centuries later), one denomination kinda learned about one or more of these!!!!! And eventually (maybe many, many centuries later) it itself decided to tell Christians about this!

This is sometimes called "Apostolic Tradition" (although it can NEVER, EVER be related to ANY much less all of the Apostles). It is sometimes also called "Second Testimony"

This missing stuff tends to be whatever is UNIQUE DOGMA in that specific denomination. "Jesus taught this as de fide dogma - it's just part of the forgot stuff but this denomination learned it somehow - and here it is." Oddly, these "forgotten dogmas" are never the same....


Stools

Some communities that buy into all the above (and they do so passionately and foundationally) state that because the Bible is so.... well, see above about God forgetting..... therefore we need TWO (maybe 3 - we'll get to that) EQUAL and SUPPLIMENTAL sources for our dogma:

1. Scripture (which is good - as far as it goes)
2. Oral Stuff (which is the forgotten stuff, equally important but usually more clear).

These are like two streams that blend into one inseparable river - one source, one revelation, one truth. All the equal teachings of Jesus and the Apostles and the Early Church (it's just that..... sadly...... we have NOTHING - absolutely nothing at all that indicates that Jesus or any of the Aposltes or anyone in the First Century and often for long after that ever even heard of any of these "oral stuff" Dogmas).

Now, some add a third stool: themselves (or the leaders self chooses from among self that are pleadged to agree with self). It just reinforces the ME part.



What do you think of all that?


Here is what I think....

1. I think there WAS a Christian "proclamation" for the 10 years or so between Easter and the first NT Book was penned and the NT began to take shape. This is called "the kerygma" Thing is: we don't know EXACTLY what "it" was for one simple reason, it was never recorded. But I find no reason to believe it included a whole bunch of super important DOGMAS that became lost (or at least with ZERO evidence - for CENTURIES).

2. I don't think the Holy Spirit forgot Dogmas. Yes, John tells us that Jesus DID some things not recorded in THAT specific singular book (the Gospel of John) but that's a whole other enchilada than insisting that THEREFORE God forgot a bunch of critical DOGMAS from the ENTIRE Bible.

3. I find no credible reason to believe that the NT is MISSING super important, critical DOGMAS taught by Jesus plus all 12-14 of the Apostles. No credible reason to believe the whole "God messed up.... God forgot" insistence.

4. I DO think that as time moved on, beyond the period of the Apostles, it is almost certain that questions and issues arose that no Apostle could be asked about (not that such would necessarily know) and that Scripture didn't address. Heaven knows, the Second, Third, Fourth Centuries were likely the most chaotic time in all of Christian history - there WERE questions and debates, and not always did those 27 books adequately address these. IMO, there were some very wise men with enormous insights and faith that often prevailed - applying Scripture. Some call these "Early Church Fathers." And I'm grateful for the Roman Emperors calling meetings in the Fourth - Seventh Centuries (we cal these the Seven ECUMENICAL Councils) that I think also did some very wise and very helpful work. But while I hold this in great esteem - I do NOT regard them as THEREFORE what JESUS and the 12-14 APOSTLES and every Christian in the First Century believed. NOT part of the "Oops, the Holy Spirit just forgot to include" stuff. And it means I place these UNDER Scripture - not EQUAL to such. Our words - however wise - are NOT ergo Jesus', it is not Jesus' job to parrot what WE eventually said - however wise we regard such.



I look forward to your responses.....


Pax


- Josiah

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Some Scriptures some bring up:



2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

This says NOTHING about Dogmas Jesus and all the Apostles taught that the Holy Spirit forgot to put into Scripture. Nor does it imply that what was taught in spoken or written form was different.

And note, it says "... by US" It says nothing about some later teacher (church, denomination, sect, cult, etc.).


St. John 20:30, "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples that are not written in this book."

This says NOTHING about forgotten DOGMA - it specifically says "signs" or deed - things DONE. And it says "IN THIS BOOK" (the Gospel of John) - the bible had not get been gathered into one tome (that would not happen for centuries).



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Well... it's kind of missing the Trinity....

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Not missing the Trinity at all in my opinion. In fact I don't think the holy scriptures could have explained the divine nature of God any clearer than by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Correction, I'm certain that the word of God could not have been more clear.

 

[tadoflamb]

It is a foundational, dogmatic insistence in some Christian communities/denominations that while the Bible is inerrant and inspired by God, that it nonetheless is MISSING a whole bunch of really super important things that Jesus taught and that we must know and believe....

I know you couldn't be talking about the Catholic Church, every dogma we've defined has scriptural evidence. Not that you would recognize it if you saw it.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Like how your church produced the bible?

 

[tadoflamb]

Like how your church produced the bible?

That's not dogmatic.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

That's not dogmatic.

No kidding!

 

[ThatTrueLight]

How about Apostolic Succession?

Oh wait, that's not in the bible either.

We build upon the foundation which is already laid, we don't continue building the foundation.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

whoops

 

[tadoflamb]

whoops

I know.

Let me help you out:

Dogmas Of The Catholic Faith

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Thanks I wasn't aware that Mary being co redeemer was catholic dogma.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Mary Co-Redeemer with Christ?

That's another gospel and is accursed according to the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Well... it's kind of missing the Trinity....

For good reason. For what little has been provided about the Trinity is oft misunderstood.


I liken missing dogmas to a cell phone. You don't have to know every intricate engineering detail of how a cell phone works to know how to use it. God has deemed that understanding of the intricate workings of the three persons of God are not needed for us to live a Christian life.

Unfortunately man has an insatiable desire to know everything. Such was the temptation of the very first sin, to be like God, knowing what God does. To feed this desire, many have claimed "new revelations" and many have claimed "new understandings". Most all are wrong.

The Bible starts with the beginning. The Bible ends with the last day and the new beginning. It tells a complete message that God wants us have. I agree with the OP assessment that the Bible is not lacking anything important for our Christian life on earth. When we get to heaven, we will certainly know more about God.


For now we should just appreciate how well God's word has been preserved throughout thousands of years. What we have is not even understood completely. If it was understood, and one could teach it with authority like Jesus did, I fathom we would not have so many arguments here on CF and so many different denominations.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some Scriptures some bring up:

St. John 20:30, "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples that are not written in this book."

This says NOTHING about forgotten DOGMA - it specifically says "signs" or deed - things DONE.
And it says "IN THIS BOOK" (the Gospel of John) - the bible had not get been gathered into one tome (that would not happen for centuries).

Thank you.
Pax
- Josiah

Signs.............

http://www.christianforums.com/t7405089-6/#post53043894

Matt 24:3.....and what the Sign....
Mark 13:4....and what the Sign....
Luke 21:7....and what the Sign....

Reve 12:
1 Now a great Sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
3 And another Sign appeared in heaven: behold!
a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
Reve 15:1
Then I saw another Sign in heaven, great and marvelous:
seven Messengers having the seven last stripes/blows, for in them the fury of God is complete.

.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

For good reason. For what little has been provided about the Trinity is oft misunderstood.


I liken missing dogmas to a cell phone. You don't have to know every intricate engineering detail of how a cell phone works to know how to use it. God has deemed that understanding of the intricate workings of the three persons of God are not needed for us to live a Christian life.

Unfortunately man has an insatiable desire to know everything. Such was the temptation of the very first sin, to be like God, knowing what God does. To feed this desire, many have claimed "new revelations" and many have claimed "new understandings". Most all are wrong.

The Bible starts with the beginning. The Bible ends with the last day and the new beginning. It tells a complete message that God wants us have. I agree with the OP assessment that the Bible is not lacking anything important for our Christian life on earth. When we get to heaven, we will certainly know more about God.


For now we should just appreciate how well God's word has been preserved throughout thousands of years. What we have is not even understood completely. If it was understood, and one could teach it with authority like Jesus did, I fathom we would not have so many arguments here on CF and so many different denominations.

I don't fundamentally disagree. The Bible is there to tell us a canonical story about God's relationship to, and actions toward, a broken creation and a rebellious humankind. It is not there to be a systematic theology or a collection of dogmatic clues.

Honestly, while I see what CJosiah is getting at, I think it's a fundamentally misdirected question. Scripture is not missing dogmas because it doesn't necessarily need to contain all information about God and humanity. What it contains is all information about the interaction of God and humanity. And that, in a way, gives us an inside view of the Trinity because we can see Christ "down here," distinct from the Father "up there," distinct from the Spirit "in us." Christians have an inside view of the Trinity because of the incarnation and because of Pentecost. But Scripture doesn't tell us as much. That experience is grounded in the events of the New Testament, but is only understood reflectively through collective experience. It took several subsequent centuries for the implications of all that to pan out, including the work of the first four ecumenical councils, Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and Chalcedon.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Honestly, while I see what Josiah is getting at, I think it's a fundamentally misdirected question.

There are, of course, two interconnected aspects to the claim under discussion:


1. That the Bible is MISSING super important, essential DOGMAS (even de fide dogmas) that Jesus and therefore all 12-14 Apostles also taught.

2. These nonetheless survived via some mysterious process and eventually became known by a specific denomination - which eventually chose to disclose it.


This is fundamental concept in a few Christian communities/denominations. This thread is intended to discuss this very basic, very divisive point.

And that, in a way, gives us an inside view of the Trinity

While not permitted here, there is perhaps a valid discussion as to whether the Doctrine of the Trinity is taught in Scripture (I HOPE all here - being orthodox proclaimers of the Creed) would agree that it is.... but I realize the legit basis for the discussion. However, the point here would be: Was the specific Doctrine of the Trinity TAUGHT by Jesus and therefore all 12-14 Apostles and therefore by all Christians in the First Century (but perhaps is MISSING in the NT via the wisdom of the Holy Spirit). MY fallible, accountable, personal OPINION is no: I think the view is solidly biblical but that the details were eventually cranked out by MAN via a rather choatic process over centuries until one (IMO very wise, strongly biblical) view prevailed and "won the day." I would not call the specifics of the doctrine exactly from the lips of Jesus during his earthly ministry, the lips of all 12-14 Apostles. I embrace the doctrine.... I think the basics of it ARE confrimed Scripturally (it holds up under Sola Scriptura IMO) but that ultimately, as we know it, it's our creation. One can argue that the Holy Spirit was in this process (and I beleive that) but it is still something WE cranked out - not specifically Jesus and the 12-14 Apostles. But that's just MY opinion - fallible, debatable, accountable. I suspect you and I are not far apart on this very fundamental debate in Christianity.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Albion]

Well... it's kind of missing the Trinity....

For good reason. For what little has been provided about the Trinity is oft misunderstood

Nope. The Trinity is in Scripture.

Anyway, the Bible makes clear that it contains all that is necessary. Even if there were some truth to the various legends and speculation that have been made into official church teachings by Traditionists, there is no justification for the making of them into dogmas.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The beauty of introducing dogmas into Christian theology which have no basis in inspired scripture and in the primitive church recorded in non-inspired historical documents is that it permits any and all ideas to become dogmas which otherwise would have been unknown to the first-century Christians. For example, there is the dogma of eternal regression which is held by the LDS. It is a relatively clever means of explaining the existence of God, at least on the surface.

 

[Albion]

The beauty of introducing dogmas into Christian theology which have no basis in inspired scripture and in the primitive church recorded in non-inspired historical documents is that it permits any and all ideas to become dogmas which otherwise would have been unknown to the first-century Christians. For example, there is the dogma of eternal regression which is held by the LDS. It is a relatively clever means of explaining the existence of God, at least on the surface.

OK, but the LDS don't provide a very good example, for obvious reasons. Yet, you are correct if we consider such dogmas as Papal Supremacy and infallibility, the Assumption of Mary, Purgatory, Indulgences, the Treasury of Merit, Seven Sacraments, etc.