Is Racism a Sin?

[Ken-1122]

How do you know? You can't read his mind either.

Innocent until proven guilty. You are the one claiming he is guilty, it is up to make your case.

In this case the context does nothing to make it better. Consider how the various white supremacist groups interpreted it as an endorsement of their views.

A racist endorsing your views doesn't make your views any more racist than a theist endorsing your views make them religious. There were plenty of racists who endorsed some of the stuff Obama said; does that make him a racist?

So the fact that he held a rally shortly afterward where that chant was made, and (contrary to his claims) did nothing to discourage it, doesn't say anything about his intentions?

The chant was "send her back" that isn't racist, that's anti immigrant.

I'm suggesting that using historically racist language in an attack on minorities is a fairly strong indication of racism,

But he didn't use the historically racist language against them.

and if you want to claim that race had nothing to do with it, it would behoove you to provide examples of the same attack used on white people.

You are the one making the claim, so back it up! You need to prove of all the insults against the Irish, the Polish, and other caucasian immigrants, that none of them were ever told to go back to where they came from.

It's not like it was some super specific insult individually tailored to each of them - it was a blanket statement based on the false assumption that they they weren't born in the US.

Then prove his words were based on race and not the false assumption that they weren't born in the US.

And please stop with the strawman that any criticism or insult towards a non-Caucasian is racist. Literally no one is claiming that.

Actually a lot of people do believe that

Poll: A Third Of Democrats Believe It’s Racist To Criticize Politicians Of Color

In fact, I just made a point in my previous post that I did not find the president's recent Twitter attack against Rep. Elijah Cummings to be racist.

Well good for you! You finally got one right. Even a broken clock can be right twice a day; keep it up; you're half way there!

And why do you think he assumed that they weren't?

I don't know

Explain how the context magically makes it not racist.

What makes it not racist isn't the context, it's the fact that he didn't insult them due to their race.

Once again, let's use my 'get back in the kitchen' example. Suppose that a man told his wife to 'get back in the kitchen, make me dinner, and if the food is good enough I'll let you go shopping'. Is that now no longer sexist?

It is sexist, but not racist which is what you would probably claim; assuming the woman were black or brown.

 

[Ken-1122]

Peeking in on this thread...

I was hopeful I could thumb through all fourteen pages and every reply would consist solely of a simple "Yes."

Instead, I see a thread with a concerning number of participants interpreting, debating, and qualifying the question, which enables them to deny certain behavior, language, and ideas are "racist" despite that those things target and discriminate against people based on their color, ethnicity, or nationality.

Why do you suppose that is? Perhaps you see something they don't? perhaps they see something you don't? Why not ask?

 

[Strathos]

Innocent until proven guilty. You are the one claiming he is guilty, it is up to make your case.

Non-sequitur. I asked how how you knew that the challenge was the point of the tweet. This doesn't address that question.

A racist endorsing your views doesn't make your views any more racist than a theist endorsing your views make them religious. There were plenty of racists who endorsed some of the stuff Obama said; does that make him a racist?

True, but it has to mean something when all of these alt-right, white supremacist groups are uniting to support him.

The chant was "send her back" that isn't racist, that's anti immigrant.

You kept focusing on the other parts of the tweet and claiming that they somehow ameliorated the 'go back to where you came from' part. Are you now claiming that that part in isolation has no racist connotations?

But he didn't use the historically racist language against them.

Yes he did. Like it or not, 'go back to your own country' is a phrase with a strong racist history in the US.

You are the one making the claim, so back it up! You need to prove of all the insults against the Irish, the Polish, and other caucasian immigrants, that none of them were ever told to go back to where they came from.

We went over this before. They were told to go back where they came from, but back then, they were not considered to be 'white'. I'm talking about here and now, using the current zeitgeist, as expressed by the president. Show me an example of him telling an Irish or Polish person to go back to their country, not someone from 100 years ago in a different cultural context telling one of them to do so.

Then prove his words were based on race and not the false assumption that they weren't born in the US.

Why do you think he made that assumption in the first place?

Actually a lot of people do believe that

Poll: A Third Of Democrats Believe It’s Racist To Criticize Politicians Of Color

Excuse me if I don't treat Tucker Carlson's rag as a reputable source. I'd like to see how the poll questions were worded, for one thing.

Well good for you! You finally got one right. Even a broken clock can be right twice a day; keep it up; you're half way there!

You seem awfully self-assured. Why not consider the possibility that you're the one who is wrong?

I don't know

But you're 100% certain it had absolutely nothing to do with the color of their skin?

What makes it not racist isn't the context, it's the fact that he didn't insult them due to their race.

Say it with me: nuance. Words and phrases can have connotations that aren't spelled out literally within them.

If a German says that their nation needs lebensraum and that they need a final solution to their problems, that is not saying anything about race, or anti-Semitism, or anything else that is directly objectionable. But that should still raise a red flag, as those are phrases that are historically associated with the atrocities of the Nazi party. If he specifically addresses these complaints to a group of Jews, that makes it even worse, despite the fact that he never actually mentioned their ethnicity or religion.

It is sexist, but not racist which is what you would probably claim; assuming the woman were black or brown.

I can't tell if you're deliberately missing my point or if you're really this obtuse.

I was using sexism in that example as an analogy for racism.

I said 'the president said X, which is racist.'

You said 'It's not racist, because he also said Y.'

I decide to use an analogy of a man saying A which is sexist, and then asking that if adding B onto A somehow makes A not sexist.

 

[Ken-1122]

Non-sequitur. I asked how how you knew that the challenge was the point of the tweet. This doesn't address that question.

Because it was at the end of the tweet. The main point is usually saved for last.

True, but it has to mean something when all of these alt-right, white supremacist groups are uniting to support him.

Trump is fighting ILLEGAL immigration so a lot of racist are going to like him. However it would be foolish to assume that anybody who fights illegal immigration is a racist.

Yes he did. Like it or not, 'go back to your own country' is a phrase with a strong racist history in the US.

I disagree. it has a strong anti immigrant history in the US.

But you're 100% certain it had absolutely nothing to do with the color of their skin?

You made the claim; I'm saying you didn't provide enough evidence to support your claim so I remain skeptical

If a German says that their nation needs lebensraum and that they need a final solution to their problems, that is not saying anything about race, or anti-Semitism, or anything else that is directly objectionable. But that should still raise a red flag, as those are phrases that are historically associated with the atrocities of the Nazi party. If he specifically addresses these complaints to a group of Jews, that makes it even worse, despite the fact that he never actually mentioned their ethnicity or religion.

If he said that, it would be anti-Semitism, not racism.

I was using sexism in that example as an analogy for racism.

Your problem is, you keep erroneously calling an anti immigrant remark racist!

I said 'the president said X, which is racist.'

You said 'It's not racist, because he also said Y.'

I decide to use an analogy of a man saying A which is sexist, and then asking that if adding B onto A somehow makes A not sexist.

The problem with your analogy is you gave an example of a man actually saying something sexist! Not racist, not anti immigrant, But sexist. In order for your analogy to be accurate, you would have to erroneously claim his insult was something else other than sexist; IOW you would have to get it wrong, like your claim that "Go back to where you came from" is racist.

 

[Strathos]

Because it was at the end of the tweet. The main point is usually saved for last.

That seems like an arbitrary assumption to me. Wouldn't it be equally plausible to say that the main point would normally be stated first?

Trump is fighting ILLEGAL immigration so a lot of racist are going to like him. However it would be foolish to assume that anybody who fights illegal immigration is a racist.

What about all of the incidents of ICE detaining legal citizens? And his support and pardon for people like Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who blatantly violated the law in his attempt to persecute the Latino population of his county?

Wait, let me guess, he's not even remotely racist either, because he wasn't caught blatantly using racial slurs or saying word for word that he hates Hispanic people

I disagree. it has a strong anti immigrant history in the US.

Those two are not mutually exclusive.

You made the claim; I'm saying you didn't provide enough evidence to support your claim so I remain skeptical

I'm not making a 100% truth claim. That would be foolish. I'm saying that there is a large amount of evidence that points to it, therefore I view it as probable. You, on the other hand, seem to be completely dismissing it as even a possibility.

If he said that, it would be anti-Semitism, not racism.

Once again, you are completely missing the point. Whatever you want to call it, a speech like that directed towards a group of Jews is a very strong indicator of bigoted sentiments, due to the historical connotations of those terms. Just like saying 'go back to your countries' to a group of minority US citizens has a historical connotation of racist use.

Your problem is, you keep erroneously calling an anti immigrant remark racist!

There is a lot of overlap in those categories.

The problem with your analogy is you gave an example of a man actually saying something sexist! Not racist, not anti immigrant, But sexist. In order for your analogy to be accurate, you would have to erroneously claim his insult was something else other than sexist; IOW you would have to get it wrong, like your claim that "Go back to where you came from" is racist.

You really think that nativist anti-immigration sentiment is completely separate from racism?

Here is a more nuanced take on the subject:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...b670962db05_story.html?utm_term=.e6c16f13c712

 

[dogs4thewin]

To a certain extent it depends on how violent and purposeful the racism is.

 

[Ken-1122]

That seems like an arbitrary assumption to me. Wouldn't it be equally plausible to say that the main point would normally be stated first?

The main point can be made at the beginning, but it is always repeated at the end thus the first and last point are the same. When the first and last point are different, the last point is the main point.

What about all of the incidents of ICE detaining legal citizens? And his support and pardon for people like Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who blatantly violated the law in his attempt to persecute the Latino population of his county?

That guy, his brother and mother were Illegal, and he gave ICE false information to cover for them. Mistakes happen all the time in law enforcement; that doesn't mean it is done on purpose. I know little about this Sheriff you speak of; he may have done some good things, and bad things. If he did something wrong, I doubt Trump would have supported that action.

Those two are not mutually exclusive.

They are not the same either.

I'm not making a 100% truth claim. That would be foolish. I'm saying that there is a large amount of evidence that points to it, therefore I view it as probable.

You are making an accusation. I'm just saying if you make an accusation, back it up!

Once again, you are completely missing the point. Whatever you want to call it, a speech like that directed towards a group of Jews is a very strong indicator of bigoted sentiments, due to the historical connotations of those terms. Just like saying 'go back to your countries' to a group of minority US citizens has a historical connotation of racist use.

Are you saying "go back to where you came from" was directed to more black and brown people than white people? How do you know this? Where are you getting these numbers?

There is a lot of overlap in those categories.

You really think that nativist anti-immigration sentiment is completely separate from racism?

Here is a more nuanced take on the subject:

Any type of bad behavior can be connected one way or another, is shoplifting related to driving too fast? Is Rape connected to Murder? It would be foolish to claim the two are never related, and it would be just as foolish to claim they are always related.

 

[Ken-1122]

There is no particular reason to take pride in your race. Race is a meaningless designation just like hair color or eye color.

If your wife had a baby with different eye or hair color than you and her that wouldn’t be as big a deal than if the baby came out a different race than you and her

 

[Ken-1122]

That someone thinks race is meaningful is why it is racism.

IOW The fact that racism exist dispels your claim that race is meaningless

 

[zephcom]

IOW The fact that racism exist dispels your claim that race is meaningless

Fantasies of the mind doesn't give something meaning. The reality is that someone's skin color has nothing at all to do with race. Dogs are dogs no matter the color of their hair. Same for cats, horses and humans.

We all interbreed easily within our class. We are, truly, all human and all alike. The color of our skin is no more significant than hair or eye color. There is actually FAR more differences between a Downs Syndrome person than the rest of us than there is just because of skin color. No one is suggesting a Downs Syndrome person is a different race.

People just have to feel superior to someone and skin color was chosen centuries ago by people who wanted to feel superior enough that they felt justified in owning another human being.

 

[zephcom]

If your wife had a baby with different eye or hair color than you and her that wouldn’t be as big a deal than if the baby came out a different race than you and her

You mean 'different skin color' not 'race'. The race is human being.

If the baby came out as an alligator, THAT would be significant.

 

[Ken-1122]

Fantasies of the mind doesn't give something meaning. The reality is that someone's skin color has nothing at all to do with race.

I never said anything about skin color. Just because you find something meanless that doesn’t make it meaningless to all

 

[Ken-1122]

You mean 'different skin color' not 'race'. The race is human being.

If the baby came out as an alligator, THAT would be significant.

No I meant what I said. If a Negroid man and a Negroid woman had a baby and it came out Mongloid, that would be a big deal
Like it or not there have always been specific physical differences in people. Tradionally these differences have been called “race”. If you no longer want to refer to those differences as race; then come up with a different name for it, but let’s not try to pretend these differences don’t exist by taking away the name

 

[zephcom]

No I meant what I said. If a Negroid man and a Negroid woman had a baby and it came out Mongloid, that would be a big deal
Like it or not there have always been specific physical differences in people. Tradionally these differences have been called “race”. If you no longer want to refer to those differences as race; then come up with a different name for it, but let’s not try to pretend these differences don’t exist by taking away the name

I don't pretend those differences don't exist. I say they are meaningless. Your issue with babies doesn't have anything at all to do with race. Rather they have to do with who the biological father of the child is -regardless- of race.

Just because the baby has the same skin color of the parents does NOT exclude the possibility the husband is not the biological father. We now have DNA testing to determine that and if someone is worried about it, they need to get the children and himself tested.

 

[Ken-1122]

I don't pretend those differences don't exist. I say they are meaningless. Your issue with babies doesn't have anything at all to do with race. Rather they have to do with who the biological father of the child is -regardless- of race.

Just because the baby has the same skin color of the parents does NOT exclude the possibility the husband is not the biological father.

Why are you bringing up skin color again? There is more to the differences between Negroid and Mongloid than skin color, the nose is different the eyes the hair is different much more than skin color. And the differences are only meaningless to you, you’re not qualified to speak for everybody else

 

[Strathos]

The main point can be made at the beginning, but it is always repeated at the end thus the first and last point are the same. When the first and last point are different, the last point is the main point.

Again, this seems like an arbitrary statement. Considering how off-the-cuff and disorganized the president's tweets are known for being, assuming that they invariably follow your rules is rather silly.

That guy, his brother and mother were Illegal, and he gave ICE false information to cover for them.

Which guy? The only 'guy' I mentioned was Arpaio, and you're obviously not talking about him.

Mistakes happen all the time in law enforcement; that doesn't mean it is done on purpose. I know little about this Sheriff you speak of; he may have done some good things, and bad things. If he did something wrong, I doubt Trump would have supported that action.

He gave him an official pardon that even Paul Ryan thought was unjustified.

They are not the same either.

It's a Venn Diagram that can't easily be separated.

You are making an accusation. I'm just saying if you make an accusation, back it up!

I have. Consider the president's history of racist statements and actions. Here are just a few:

1973: Found guilty of violating the Fair Housing Act by refusing to rent to black tenants and lying to black applicants about the availability of apartments. He was sued by the DOJ for this.
1989: Insisted that the 'Central Park Five', a group of four black and one Latino teenager, were guilty of a rape despite exonerating DNA evidence. He demanded the death penalty for them, and still believes they are guilty to this day.
1991: Quoted by a former president of one of his casinos as saying that he hates 'black guys counting his money', and that blacks are inherently lazy.
1992: Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino fined $200,000.00 for transferring black and woman dealers off of tables because one of their customers demanded it.
1993: Said that certain Native American tribes should not be allowed to run casinos because they 'didn't look like Indians to him'.
2011: Pushed the Obama birther conspiracy hard, and even continued to do so after the long-form birth certificate was released
2016: Argued that Judge Gonzalo Curiel was not qualified to judge the case against his fraudulent 'University' because he was of Mexican heritage and Latino ethnicity.
2016: Retweeted an anti-Semitic meme about Hillary Clinton.
2017: Refused to unequivocally condemn the 'Unite the Right' marchers in Charlottesville after a riot in which they caused injuries and at least one death. Said that there were 'very fine people' on both sides.
2017: Attacked black NFL players for protesting against systemic racism
2018: Referred to Haiti and several African countries as '****hole countries' and wished there would be fewer immigrants from there and more from majority-white countries like Norway.

You could probably argue against any one of these incidents individually. But most people observing them will notice a pattern.

Are you saying "go back to where you came from" was directed to more black and brown people than white people? How do you know this? Where are you getting these numbers?

It's historically been used against black and brown people even if they were not immigrants or recent descendants of immigrants, as many people make the assumption that 'non-white' = 'foreign'. In fact, it's a core belief of white supremacist groups that America should be an 'ethnostate' where only whites are welcome. This is part of the overlap I talked about. 3 of the 4 congresswomen he attacked were born in the US, yet he made the assumption that they were not.

Any type of bad behavior can be connected one way or another, is shoplifting related to driving too fast? Is Rape connected to Murder? It would be foolish to claim the two are never related, and it would be just as foolish to claim they are always related.

All-or-nothing fallacy. Xenophobia and racism complement and feed off of each other, and have gone hand-in-hand throughout history. Just look at the examples of certain people assuming that black/brown people are immigrants or foreigners, and thus valid targets for anti-immigrant rhetoric, simply because of the color of their skin.

 

[RDKirk]

Why are you bringing up skin color again? There is more to the differences between Negroid and Mongloid than skin color, the nose is different the eyes the hair is different much more than skin color. And the differences are only meaningless to you, you’re not qualified to speak for everybody else

So what is the meaning of the differences to you, then?

If one Caucasian is brown-eyed and one is blue-eyed, what is the meaning of that difference to you?

How is that different to you from one person having the Afroid phenotype and another person have the Caucasoid phenotype?

 

[Ken-1122]

Again, this seems like an arbitrary statement. Considering how off-the-cuff and disorganized the president's tweets are known for being, assuming that they invariably follow your rules is rather silly.

You're gonna believe what you wanna believe regardless. My point is, if he wanted to say "go back to where you came from," he would have said it. He said something else which tells me he meant what he said/tweeted.

Which guy? The only 'guy' I mentioned was Arpaio, and you're obviously not talking about him.

I was talking about the legal citizen ICE snatched up, that everybody was making a fuss over.

He gave him an official pardon that even Paul Ryan thought was unjustified.

So that makes him a racist? Obama didn't wanna throw Rev Wright under the buss; does that make him a racist?

I have. Consider the president's history of racist statements and actions. Here are just a few:

1973: Found guilty of violating the Fair Housing Act by refusing to rent to black tenants and lying to black applicants about the availability of apartments. He was sued by the DOJ for this.
1989: Insisted that the 'Central Park Five', a group of four black and one Latino teenager, were guilty of a rape despite exonerating DNA evidence. He demanded the death penalty for them, and still believes they are guilty to this day.
1991: Quoted by a former president of one of his casinos as saying that he hates 'black guys counting his money', and that blacks are inherently lazy.
1992: Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino fined $200,000.00 for transferring black and woman dealers off of tables because one of their customers demanded it.
1993: Said that certain Native American tribes should not be allowed to run casinos because they 'didn't look like Indians to him'.

The issues concerning his Casino's and apartment housing, he isn't the one who did this; his managers did. However he did claim the fair housing lawsuit, it was a case where every apartment in the neighborhood was sued and because he had property in that neighborhood, it was a part of the lawsuit also. According to Trump, the lawsuit was settled with no money and no admission of guilt.
Trump's 1973 Discrimination Case Was Part of Larger Case

2011: Pushed the Obama birther conspiracy hard, and even continued to do so after the long-form birth certificate was released

Just because people questioned whether or not Obama was a legal citizen or not, doesn't make them racist. It was just a foolish last attempt of Obama's enemies grabbing at the last straws looking for a way to discredit him

2016: Argued that Judge Gonzalo Curiel was not qualified to judge the case against his fraudulent 'University' because he was of Mexican heritage and Latino ethnicity.

The Latino Judge was ruling on issues concerning Illegal Immigrants.

2016: Retweeted an anti-Semitic meme about Hillary Clinton.
2017: Refused to unequivocally condemn the 'Unite the Right' marchers in Charlottesville after a riot in which they caused injuries and at least one death. Said that there were 'very fine people' on both sides.

The Unite the right movement had a lot of racists there, but it was also my understanding they also had "The Sons of the Confederacy" there also. Though on the wrong side of history, they aren't considered a racist organization. If true, it would be unfair to paint everybody there with the same broad brush.

2017: Attacked black NFL players for protesting against systemic racism

When those NFL players played a game in Mexico, they stood for the Mexican anthem, and refused to stand for the American Anthem. Trump called it a disgrace, and I agree with that. If they think black people have it so bad in America, they should see how black people are treated in Mexico; they shouldn't have stood for that flag either.

2018: Referred to Haiti and several African countries as '****hole countries' and wished there would be fewer immigrants from there and more from majority-white countries like Norway.

Places where over 50% of the population is uneducated, and 75% live in extreme poverty; where as Norway has everybody educated and nobody lives in poverty. Humm.... which country will provide immigrants that will help us more?
Kennedy said: Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Modern democrats seemed to have gotten away from that[/QUOTE]

 

[Ken-1122]

So what is the meaning of the differences to you, then?

If one Caucasian is brown-eyed and one is blue-eyed, what is the meaning of that difference to you?

How is that different to you from one person having the Afroid phenotype and another person have the Caucasoid phenotype?

The differences are only visual. But I'm not going to pretend it would be considered normal for 2 Chinese parents to have a Black baby.

 

[Ken-1122]

opps!