Is Purgatory real?

Lybrah said:

I will just get to the point: Is Purgatory real? Didn't Christ already pay for our sins (taking the punishment for us) when He died in the Cross? Aren't we covered in the blood of the lamb? This life on Earth is a waiting place for us; why go to another waiting place? Aren't we made clean by accepting His death?

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Yes, it's real. Gehenna is Purgatory.

Albion said:

No, it's not. However, this question has been asked and debated ad nauseum lately, so I expect this thread to run to more than 500 posts with neither side yielding an inch.

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Amein. Realizing that the ideas and practices of the enemy/ false gospel even/ false religions even/ may post without end even after being exposed, corrected, and shown to be false by clear Scripture.....
(in an assembly of ekklesia, closed to the world (believers only allowed) , the enemy's ideas and practices would not be permitted to be spoken at all, so it would not continue past just a few posts).....

As real as Santa Claus..

Dartman said:

No.
"Purgatory" is never found in Scriptures, and the notion the word defines isn't either. The definition is;
"a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven."
1) No human, except Jesus, has ever, or will ever, go to God's presence in heaven (John 3:13). The hope of the righteous is to be resurrected at Christ's coming (1 Cor 15:20-22), and to reign with him on the earth (Rev 5:9,10 and Rev 20). THEN, to inherit the entire earth, with Jesus and with Jesus' God, and live here forever (Rev 21 & 22).
2) There is only one text in Scripture that sort of sounds like "purgatory" ... and that is the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus ... which is teaching an entirely different point.
3) There are MANY texts in Scripture that clearly, and in detail, state that ALL those that have died, both righteous and wicked, are sleeping/waiting in the graves/dust/hell for resurrection (Dan 12:2;John 5:28-30).

Yes he did, and that sacrifice is available for the entire world, but only applies to those that believe and obey. (John 3:16-19, Rom 6:3-6)

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I understand and agree with each point, but there is still "Hades" as said by Christ Himself.... and it is not the lake of fire of course, but rather will be cast into that after the day of judgment. So....Hades, before the day of judgement...and the sinful rich man already suffering there....

More, he said in the parable of the unforgiving debtor (mat 17) that the unforgiving debtor would be cast into prison until he paid the last penny.... what "prison"? What means of "paying" until paid in full??

So, we have more than one thing to explain, already here.

Halbhh said:

So, we have more than one thing to explain, already here.

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Perfectly, in line with all Scripture, all (including what's in your post) has already been
simply and rightly explained, as YHWH "gave understanding of all Scripture" , to all He called and chose and appointed to know and be His messengers,
but few ever hear or accept it due to the overwhelming influence (perhaps, ....) of pagan ideas and practices that infiltrated the church in the first 1200 years, including so many greek myths and ideas and practices.

Beaker said:

When Christ died and rose again, HE and HE only, paid the price of our salvation. All we have to do is believe and receive His free gift.

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As far as I can tell, in Catholic doctrine, Purgatory is not about salvation. It's about sanctification.

Halbhh said:

I understand and agree with each point, but there is still "Hades" as said by Christ Himself.... and it is not the lake of fire of course, but rather will be cast into that after the day of judgment. So....Hades, before the day of judgement...

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Hades/Hell is the grave. It is the dust. It represents all the dead, waiting for resurrection.
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-30 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Halbhh said:

.. and the sinful rich man already suffering there....

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The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not discussing literal death, it is discussing the punishment of the nation of Israel, the Jews (the rich man), for rejecting Jesus (the one raised from the dead), and the Abrahamic promises (Abraham's bosom) being made available to the Gentiles (Lazarus)

Halbhh said:

More, he said in the parable of the unforgiving debtor (mat 17) that the unforgiving debtor would be cast into prison until he paid the last penny.... what "prison"? What means of "paying" until paid in full??

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I think you mean Matt 18;
Matt 18:34-35 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

This passage is much like several others, that make the point "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors".

I do NOT believe Jesus intends for us to try and symbolize every detail in the parable. For example; Matt 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

I don't believe we need to assign figurative meanings to the wife, the children and his possessions. I believe Jesus was relating elements in the parable, that make sense in the "back story", but are not intended to convey a unique, figurative meaning.

Here's some history on "Purgatory" in my own words:

Purgatory (defined by he council of Florence in 1439 and then officially defended by the council of Trent in the late 16th century) is "limbo" of the soul. It's an idea that doesn't have biblical validity but has become current dogma. It is nowhere found in the cannon of scripture! Case closed right there, as the argument of its existence should be nullified.

Purgatory does indeed undermine the efficiency of Christ's atonement on the cross because the Bible says that through Christ "...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." -Hebrews 10:14 (NIV). The debt is finished!

Also, the new Catholic encyclopedia recognized that Purgatory is not from the canon of scripture! So BOOM, there you have it right there! Even the RCC church no longer recognizes it, with the exception of some old hats that still cling to the dogma.

So you might ask, where does "purgatory" stem from exactly, if it's not in the canon of scripture? Answer: The Apocrypha.

2 Maccabees 12:45 (NRSA/apoc):
"45-But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin."

Martin Luther even opposed certain apocryphal passages such as 2 Maccabees 12:45, which had been used by the Roman Catholic Church to support the doctrine of purgatory and the selling of indulgences. Luther even went so far as to separate the apocrypha in an appendix, against the wishes of the Roman Catholic council of Trent.

Purgatory is nothing more than biblical fallacious "spin."

chevyontheriver said:

If it's a serious question and not just a way to launch a polemic, you might try asking in the Catholic forum, One Bread One Body, and you might learn something. Here I suspect it's going to just be an argument. And I don't want to get roped into yet another waste of time argument.

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No argument..it's a myth. Not biblical

Lybrah said:

I will just get to the point: Is Purgatory real? Didn't Christ already pay for our sins (taking the punishment for us) when He died in the Cross? Aren't we covered in the blood of the lamb? This life on Earth is a waiting place for us; why go to another waiting place? Aren't we made clean by accepting His death?

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It's not real it's a false hope..a lie.

And yes Jesus has done all that for us.
But we must walk in his way.
Without repentance there is no forgiveness of sin..
Saying your a believer does not mean the person is saved.
You have to Do what he says. Which proves your a believer.
A doer not just a hearer

I think purgatory is mostly for those who died in unbelief or because they were in another religion. I would also combine catholic teaching with the jewish one that says that after death some people go to purgatory for maximally one year. It's to burn severe impurities out of us, so it's not for the occasional masturbator or if you've been bad sometimes. These things only need repentance to get done away with. But people like Hitler became so corrupted in their soul that they need purgatory. Everyone is going to get to be with God and all the rest of mankind. That's the cross and God's grace. But those who became very corrupted need to get cleansed first, and purgatory doesn't mean painful flames but instead cleansing flames, and those who go there go there after death as spirit beings. Hallelujah! God has a way for everyone! Praised be God Almighty and His tender son Jesus and the kind Holy Spirit!

lutherangerman said:

I think purgatory is mostly for those who died in unbelief or because they were in another religion. I would also combine catholic teaching with the jewish one that says that after death some people go to purgatory for maximally one year. It's to burn severe impurities out of us, so it's not for the occasional masturbator or if you've been bad sometimes. These things only need repentance to get done away with. But people like Hitler became so corrupted in their soul that they need purgatory. Everyone is going to get to be with God and all the rest of mankind. That's the cross and God's grace. But those who became very corrupted need to get cleansed first, and purgatory doesn't mean painful flames but instead cleansing flames, and those who go there go there after death as spirit beings. Hallelujah! God has a way for everyone! Praised be God Almighty and His tender son Jesus and the kind Holy Spirit!

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You can think what you like..and perish in promoting your own thoughts.
Its not scriptural.

"Believe in The Good News" (Jesus New Covenant and New Testament) and Jesus said that Repentance of sins are to be done in His Name and that the sins loosed on earth are the sins loosed in Heaven.

In other words, Repent sins to Jesus through His Priests and Ministers through His Holy Confession Reconciliation Blessed Holy Sacrament - the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

"Whoever eats This Flesh and drinks My Blood has Life in them"

"Whoever does not eat My Flesh and drinks My Blood has no Life within them"

Therefore we must repents sins to Jesus from hearts in trust in Him in order for the opportunity to be given us to receive His Mercy now and at the hour of death.

Jesus said these things to His hundreds of Saints/Nuns when appearing to them right through to the 1930s appearing to Saint Faustina and delivering His Divine Mercy Chaplet Novena and 600 Holy Messages

Galilee63 said:

"Believe in The Good News" (Jesus New Covenant and New Testament) and Jesus said that Repentance of sins are to be done in His Name and that the sins loosed on earth are the sins loosed in Heaven.

In other words, Repent sins to Jesus through His Priests and Ministers through His Holy Confession Reconciliation Blessed Holy Sacrament - the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

"Whoever eats This Flesh and drinks My Blood has Life in them"

"Whoever does not eat My Flesh and drinks My Blood has no Life within them"

Therefore we must repents sins to Jesus from hearts in trust in Him in order for the opportunity to be given us to receive His Mercy now and at the hour of death.

Jesus said these things to His hundreds of Saints/Nuns when appearing to them right through to the 1930s appearing to Saint Faustina and delivering His Divine Mercy Chaplet Novena and 600 Holy Messages

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Wow..way to misquote and misrepresent scripture.
It doesn't say that at all

Galilee63 said:

Jesus said these things to His hundreds of Saints/Nuns when appearing to them right through to the 1930s appearing to Saint Faustina and delivering His Divine Mercy Chaplet Novena and 600 Holy Messages

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So he appeared to them and contradicted his own words?
Rubbish ...some one appeared as an angel of light.scripture states Satan can do that..
This info is rubbish

Alithis said:

So he appeared to them and contradicted his own words?
Rubbish ...some one appeared as an angel of light.scripture states Satan can do that..
This info is rubbish

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Correct.
Whenever satan or a demon appears as an angel of light or as the pagan goddess worshipped by 'mortals',
it
is completely death-dealing deception and blatantly contrary to all Scripture,
and it is supporting all that is opposed to God's Word for Salvation - the trick by the enemy is not at all benign (/harmless, no) ,
but is insidiously pernicious and destructive to true faith in Jesus.

THE W said:

As real as Santa Claus..

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St. Nicholas Center ::: The Real Santa

Lybrah said:

I will just get to the point: Is Purgatory real?

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No...

Didn't Christ already pay for our sins (taking the punishment for us) when He died in the Cross?

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Yes... And all who believe Jesus and trust that He paid for our sins shall be gifted eternal salvation.. Those who don't will not be gifted Eternal salvation.. So don't believe in purgatory what ever you do...

Aren't we covered in the blood of the lamb?

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Yes... If we believe Jesus and trust in His Blood to cover us..

This life on Earth is a waiting place for us; why go to another waiting place? Aren't we made clean by accepting His death?

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We are made clean by believing 100% that his death cleans us 100%..

THE W said:

As real as Santa Claus..

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Saint Nicholas is real.

Lybrah said:

I will just get to the point: Is Purgatory real? Didn't Christ already pay for our sins (taking the punishment for us) when He died in the Cross? Aren't we covered in the blood of the lamb? This life on Earth is a waiting place for us; why go to another waiting place? Aren't we made clean by accepting His death?

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Read John 3:5

Salvation = Justication (The Cross of Christ) + Sanctification (The purging fires of the Holy Ghost)

We have to carefully read John 14 entirely and ask the following important question....

Who came on Pentecost and why?

Answer is the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the person of the Trinity who purges us until we are made in Christ's likeness, according to his eight beatidudes.

What did Jesus say about the Holy Ghost?

The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. (John 14:17)

The world is referring to unbelievers, who have not accepted Jesus in order to be justified and therefore are not indwelled by the Holy Ghost within their hearts.

So Jesus tells us that the role of the Holy Ghost is to help the believers, by leading them to all truth, through the life long purging process and to be with the believer forever.

Now, when a believer dies, is there any further processes that the Holy Ghost does?

Before, I answer this, you can immediately scratch off the unbelievers because they never had the Holy Ghost to begin with.

Jesus calls believers servants and so Jesus clearly instructs to being faithful even onto death (Revelation 2:10).

What did Jesus say....

48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:48-51)

Now we can understand, the thoughts of God, with reference to John 3:5. Also we know that a person can loose their salvation if they fail to be faithful even onto death.

The same Holy God in tge Old Testament says on three occassions, within the same chapter...

20as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness. (Ezekiel 14:20)

Why did I go at length to explain it to you and others?

Because to rule out the doctrine of Universalism and Purgatory after death. You see the mind of God is the mind of Jesus. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and the new.

If a servant is determined to be faithful according to John 3:5....

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

The requirement according to God is that either you are there when you die or your not, for there are no partial or half measures.

This is why Saint Paul ratifies Revelation 2:10....whereby Jesus says....

be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Paul says......

6For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my race, I have kept the faith:8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:6-8)

So after a servant in Christ dies, either they have been determined by God to have successfully finished their race or not, for there are no half measures or no finishers.

If there are no half measures, then after a witness dies, their fate is already sealed and there is no more purging in order to finish off what was not accomplished in this life.

The Hebrews author who writes on behalf of all the Apostolic Jewish Church in Jerusalem, says the following....

they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Hebrews 9:15-17)

Death of a servant/witness is the final testing and purging that the Holy Ghost performs before a person dies.

Once a witness dies, then comes judgement, that is the outcome. For it is written all people are destined to die once, then judgement.

4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,

and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,

6because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,

and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” (Hebrews 12:4-6)

Purgatory after the shedding of blood, falls outside of the purging fires of the blood covenant, because death enters the witness in the position of receiving their eternal inheritance of what was promised (Hebrews 9:15)

Blood covenant is a contractual agreement between God and those called and justified by the Cross of Christ. This contract has the promise of eternal inheritance that is discharged to the faithful after they die and the conditional application of John 3:5 after death is no longer applicable.

There is no protracted purgatory process after death that leads to salvation, since the conditional blood covenant is no longer applicable and so the witness has been either successfully purged by the Holy Ghost in this life or he/she is not and the outcome judgement is condemnation, resulting to eternal punishment and separation from God and his Christ.

Purgatory after death is a Spiritist Universalism belief that is at odds with the testimony of scripture and all primary witnesses of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Here is the link.....

Purified by Suffering – Rising out of Purgatory

Purgatory is a Spiritist Universalist ideology....read the excerpt below....

Zabdiel, a spirit who lives on the tenth level of heaven, reveals how souls are assisted to slowly rise out of the depths of purgatory (called the abyss in Spiritist literature) in Book Two of the book The Life Beyond the Veil called The Highlands of Heaven. He tells the Rev. G. Vale Owen how spirits rise toward the light.

Purgatory in the afterlife is not Biblical and the red flags is how Spiritists and Universalists use it to indoctrinate masses into a post death covenant which is void of the justifying blood of Christ and void of the sanctifying works of the Holy Ghost.