Is Purgatory real?

BNR32FAN · Aug 13, 2017

chevyontheriver said:
You have set up a straw man to knock him down.

Ok perhaps you can help me to understand by explaining where I went wrong.

Alithis · Aug 13, 2017

BNR32FAN said:
I disagree they just believe they are defending God's word. Remember that they are our brothers and sisters and it is our God given duty to help them to understand. Most catholics truly honor God they are just misled.

A deceptive answer...the one thing they are Not doing is defending his word.
As its been comprehensively shown there is no such thing In his word.

And don't promote false unity .
A Christian may be a Christian by self acclaimation by c.f. rules and within c.f. rules we can't state otherwise.even if they are a practicing Satanist..if they identify as “a christian” c.f. rules forbids stating or implying they are Not Christian .
C.f. Wil give account to God for that.
But it is Jesus who knows who are his sheep and who are goats..
He is not fooled by those who would worship another in his name .and I do not call just call any one brother ..simply because they use his name.

Now dont reply to me here.
I already unsubscribed from this thread.
Is there an option to block a thread? Please mods.. do tell me it how.

BNR32FAN · Aug 13, 2017

Alithis said:
A deceptive answer...the one thing they are Not doing is defending his word.
As its been comprehensively shown there is no such thing In his word.

And don't promote false unity .
A Christian may be a Christian by self acclaimation by c.f. rules and within c.f. rules we can't state otherwise.even if they are a practicing Satanist..if they identify as “a christian” c.f. rules forbids stating or implying they are Not Christian .
C.f. Wil give account to God for that.
But it is Jesus who knows who are his sheep and who are goats..
He is not fooled by those who would worship another in his name .and I do not call just call any one brother ..simply because they use his name.

Now dont reply to me here.
I already unsubscribed from this thread.
Is there an option to block a thread? Please mods.. do tell me it how.

I never said they are defending God's word I said they believe the are defending His word. When I said many catholics believe they are defending God's word I wasn't talking about the catholic church. I was talking about the catholic followers. You'll never inspire anyone to believe the truth about God's word by confrontation or animosity. Kindness, love and peaceful explanation is the only way to reach them. If you only resort to confrontation and animosity you will only provoke a defensive position and not show Jesus' character within you. If you try to force them towards God you will only end up pushing them farther away. Their natural reaction to confrontation and animosity is to take a defensive position and contradict anything you say. There's a difference between attacking someone and trying to help them. As Christians we should never resort to attacks. We should kindly explain how their beliefs are incorrect according to the scriptures.

chevyontheriver · Aug 13, 2017

BNR32FAN said:
Ok perhaps you can help me to understand by explaining where I went wrong.

You could try to figure out what purgatory is from official Catholic sources rather than presuming that you understand it. That way your Bible references could be more apropos. You shot down and killed a straw man but for any educated Catholic it is apparent you missed the mark with respect to purgatory.

Albion · Aug 13, 2017

BNR32FAN said:
Ok perhaps you can help me to understand by explaining where I went wrong.

Looks like you aren't going to get any such thing, despite your polite request. But FWIW I read your post and tried to be careful about it, and I saw that you did provide evidence from Scripture that, yes, does negate any idea of a Purgatory.

BNR32FAN · Aug 13, 2017

Your still dodging the question because you can't explain how purgatory doesn't contradict the verses I quoted. If I'm wrong and you know I am then please explain where I went wrong in my explanation.

BNR32FAN · Aug 13, 2017

Albion said:
Looks like you aren't going to get any such thing, despite your polite request. But FWIW I read your post and tried to be careful about it, and I saw that you did provide evidence from Scripture that, yes, does negate any idea of a Purgatory.

Yes because the scriptures are the undeniable truth.

PeaceB · Aug 13, 2017

BNR32FAN said:
Many times the bible says we are saved by faith and not by works.

Absolutely. We are saved by faith and not by works. Your problem is that you cannot reconcile these words with "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" without altering the meaning of the text.

Yes works are necessary because if we don't do good works that is evidence that our faith is not genuine.

I do not think that is true. Some people, such as those who suffer severe mental or physical disabilities, are incapable of demonstrating any good works that evidence their genuine faith. Does that mean that their faith is not genuine? Are good works necessary for them, so that they can be vindicated before men?

Look at verse 22

“Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:22‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Both Abraham and Rehab were justified because their works made their faith perfect and several times in the bible it says we are not saved by works we are saved by our faith thru God's grace. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. Grace is a gift not something we can earn. I'm sure you would agree that the scriptures do not contradict themselves.

Catholic theology uses the word "merit" in various places, but it is never used in the sense of "deserve God's grace because of something good that we did on our own." Grace is indeed a gift and something that cannot be earned. And it is a free and unmerited favor of God. But this does not mean that works have no role in the economy of salvation. This is where you err.

Let me give you a simple example. Your girlfriend gives you a nice watch as a gift. You did nothing to deserve it, as you had been quite a terrible boyfriend up to that point. The gift is wrapped in some nice wrapping paper. In order to benefit from the gift, you have to do a little work in tearing off the wrapping paper, cutting the seal on the box, and so forth. Does the fact that you had to do a little work to use the watch mean that the watch is no longer a gift, but that you in-fact deserve the gift because you did the work of tearing off the wrapping paper? No, of course not.

Another example. John repents of his sins, believes in the gospel, and puts his faith and trust in our Lord Jesus. Mike, on the other hand, does not repent of his sins, believe in the gospel, and put his faith and trust in our Lord Jesus. Does this therefore mean that John deserves to be saved, because he repented, believed, and put his faith and trust in our Lord Jesus? No, of course not. John does not deserve to be saved any more so than Mike. John is saved by grace, but he must do something (repent, believe, and have faith and trust in Jesus) in conjunction with accepting the free gift of salvation.

So it is with works. The fact that we believe that a baptized person must refrain from "sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like" does not mean that we somehow think that refraining from these things is a ground by which we can say to God "we deserve to go to heaven".

“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Absolutely. A person cannot perform good works and then say to God "You are legally obligated to give me the reward of heaven, as repayment of a debt that you owe me for the good works that I did for you." Attempting to work oneself into heaven in that manner is futile, and any Christian with an ounce of common sense should find the idea laughable.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Amen. I could not agree more. We are saved by grace though faith. Salvation is the gift of God. And we certainly have nothing to boast about.

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Romans 11:6; And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

http://bible.com/1/rom.11.6.kjv
Amen. The Catholic Church teaches the same:

Paul III Council of Trent-6

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

It is our faith that is made perfect by works not ourselves. We are not made perfect by our works. It is our faith that saves us not our works. Works are evidence that our faith is genuine and sincere.

Absolutely. As you noted above, Scripture says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." This is absolutely true.

Your problem is that you cannot reconcile those verses with St. James, and alter the meaning of Scripture in order to make it fit with your prior interpretation of St. Paul.

Here is what the Scripture says:
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Here is the way that you alter the verses:
You see that a person is vindicated by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute vindicated by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Above "vindicated" means "shown to be right", and this is exactly the incorrect translation that is present in the NLT that you originally cited.

You are changing the meaning of Scripture, because it does not fit your theology. The fact of the matter is that St. James uses the same exact Greek word for "justified" that St. Paul uses throughout his letters. James does not say "vindicated" he says "justified".

There are plenty of other reasons why your interpretation of Scripture fails. Among them are:
1) There is nothing in the context that indicates that St. James is interested in the question of how one evidences his faith before other men, or how other men can have proof that another person has faith.

St. James tells us exactly the question that he sets out to answer: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" St. James is asking whether faith alone, without works, can save a person.

If your interpretation were true, St. James would have asked something like "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? How will anyone know that he has a genuine saving faith?" But this is simply not the question that St. James asks. You are interpreting the verses out of context.

2) In Genesis 22 Abraham did not take a bunch of people with him up onto the mountain to sacrifice his son, so that people could have evidence of his faith. In other words, he did not go to the top of of the mountain to be justified or to be vindicated before men, because there were no other men on the mount to see what he was about to do. The only witnesses were God, and an angel.

Genesis 22 sets out by stating that "God tested Abraham" in the first verse, and after Abraham demonstrated that he was willing to sacrifice his son, the angel says "now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” It was God's test, and God who saw that he did not withhold his son. The point here is that God desired to see Abraham's good works. There is absolutely nothing in the text that indicates that these matters had anything to do with vindication before men, so there is no reason why St. James should have attempted the example in Genesis 22 for that purpose.

3) "You see" does not appear at all with respect to Rahab. The text states "And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?" From the context the answer to the question is obviously "Yes, Rahab the prostitute was justified by works when she received the messengers".

Those are just some of the reasons why your interpretation of James is incorrect. As I wrote before, Protestants have been trying to explain away the text for 500 years to no avail. There are at least 7 different ways that Protestants attempt to interpret James, in order to attempt to make the words mean exactly the opposite of what they state. Because of such difficulty, Martin Luther, who invented the false doctrine of "salvation by faith alone", concluded that the Book of James is not Scripture and should be thrown out of the Bible, because it conflicted with his theology so much.

You can read the words of Martin Luther for yourself:

Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle, and my reasons follow.

In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works (2:24). It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac (2:20); though in Romans 4:2-22 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15:6. Now although this epistle might be helped by an interpretation devised for this justification by works, it cannot be defended it its application to works (2:23) of Moses’ statement in Genesis 15:6. For Moses is speaking here only of Abraham’s faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul demonstrates in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.

In the second place its purpose is to teach Christians, but in all this long teaching it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ. He names Christ several times; however he teaches nothing about him, but only speaks of general faith in God. Now it is the office of a true apostle to preach of the Passion and resurrection and office of Christ, and to lay the foundation for faith in him, as Christ himself says in John 15:27, “You shall bear witness to me.” All the genuine sacred books agree in this, that all of them preach and inculcate Christ. And that is the true test by which to judge all books, when we see whether or not they inculcate Christ. For all the Scriptures show us Christ, Romans 3:21; and St. Paul will know nothing but Christ, I Corinthians 2:2. Whatever does not teach Christ is not yet apostolic, even though St. Peter or St. Paul does the teaching. Again, whatever preaches Christ would be apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate, and Herod were doing it.”

But this James does nothing more than drive to the law and its works. Besides, he throws things together so chaotically that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took a few sayings from the disciples of the apostles and thus tossed them off on paper. Or it may perhaps have been written by someone on the basis of his preaching. He calls the law a “law of liberty” (1:25), though Paul calls it a law of slavery, of wrath, of death, and of sin.

Moreover he cites the sayings of St. Peter (in 5:20); Love covers a multitude of sins” (1 Pet. 4:8), and again (in 4:10), “Humble yourselves under he had of God” (1 Pet. 5:6) also the saying of St. Paul in Galatians 5:17, “The Spirit lusteth against envy.” And yet, in point of time, St. James was put to death by Herod (Acts 12:2) in Jerusalem, before St. Peter. So it seems that this author came long after St. Peter and St. Paul.

In a word, he wanted to guard against those who relied on faith without works, but was unequal to the task in spirit, thought, and words. He mangles the Scriptures and thereby opposes Paul and all Scripture. He tries to accomplish by harping on the law what the apostles accomplish by stimulating people to love. Therefore I cannot include him among the chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him. Therefore I will not have him in my Bible to be numbered among the true chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him. One man is no man in worldly things; how then, should this single man alone avail against Paul and all Scripture?

Concerning the epistle of St. Jude, no one can deny that it is an extract or copy of St. Peter’s second epistle, so very like it are all the words. He also speaks of the apostles like a disciple who comes long after them (Jude 17) and cites sayings and incidents that are found nowhere else in the Scriptures (Jude 9, 14). This moved the ancient Fathers to exclude this epistle from the main body of the Scriptures. Moreover the Apostle Jude did not go to Greek-speaking lands, but to Persia, as it is said, so that he did not write Greek. Therefore, although I value this book, it is an epistle that need not be counted among the chief books which are supposed to lay the foundations of faith.

Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude (1522 version) (Luther’s Works, Volume 35)

PeaceB · Aug 13, 2017

BNR32FAN said:
I disagree they just believe they are defending God's word. Remember that they are our brothers and sisters and it is our God given duty to help them to understand. Most catholics truly honor God they are just misled.

Well. Either we are being misled, you are being misled, or both of our interpretations of Scripture are incorrect. You are not an infallible interpreter of Scripture, so you must admit that there is a possibility that your understanding of Scripture could be wrong.

PeaceB · Aug 13, 2017

BNR32FAN said:
Your still dodging the question because you can't explain how purgatory doesn't contradict the verses I quoted. If I'm wrong and you know I am then please explain where I went wrong in my explanation.

Why should he? You have not demonstrated that the verses contradict purgatory.

You are working under the assumption that the verses contradict purgatory, that you have proven that the verses contradict purgatory, and that therefore we bear the burden to rebut your proof that the verses contradict purgatory. Your problem is that we do not hold to your assumptions, nor have you proven that any of the verses you cited contradict purgatory.

Let me explain something to you. The Catholic church has been around for a very long time. She has had thousands of intelligent priests, theologians, and lay apologists at her disposal over the centuries. Any verse of Scripture that you attempt to use to refute the Catholic faith has already been considered a thousand times, and the objection rebutted a thousand times with intelligence. Some of us have been part of those debates many times ourselves, and tire of debating the same thing over, and over, and over, when you can easily find out how we interpret Scripture, and how we respond to your objections, by using Google and the library.

Lets take Romans‬ ‭3:25-26‬ as one quick example. Here, again you are using a poor translation. Here is what the ESV (a more accurate Protestant Translation) states:

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

There is nothing in the above verses that contradicts the Catholic doctrine of purgatory, in our view. You understand the Scripture differently than we do, and we reject your interpretation of Scripture.

amariselle · Aug 13, 2017

Hebrews 11

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Robert76 · Aug 13, 2017

Lybrah said:
I will just get to the point: Is Purgatory real? Didn't Christ already pay for our sins (taking the punishment for us) when He died in the Cross? Aren't we covered in the blood of the lamb? This life on Earth is a waiting place for us; why go to another waiting place? Aren't we made clean by accepting His death?

The place in scripture sometimes used to support the existence of Purgatory is 1 Cor 3:15:
" If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

This is often misunderstood as being in reference to the person rather than their works; however, the language of the original Greek text does not suggest the person, nor did Jesus make reference to such place or concept. The following article goes into more detail on this:

What does the Bible say about Purgatory?

BNR32FAN · Aug 13, 2017

PeaceB said:
Why should he? You have not demonstrated that the verses contradict purgatory.

You are working under the assumption that the verses contradict purgatory, that you have proven that the verses contradict purgatory, and that therefore we bear the burden to rebut your proof that the verses contradict purgatory. Your problem is that we do not hold to your assumptions, nor have you proven that any of the verses you cited contradict purgatory.

Let me explain something to you. The Catholic church has been around for a very long time. She has had thousands of intelligent priests, theologians, and lay apologists at her disposal over the centuries. Any verse of Scripture that you attempt to use to refute the Catholic faith has already been considered a thousand times, and the objection rebutted a thousand times with intelligence. Some of us have been part of those debates many times ourselves, and tire of debating the same thing over, and over, and over, when you can easily find out how we interpret Scripture, and how we respond to your objections, by using Google and the library.

Lets take Romans‬ ‭3:25-26‬ as one quick example. Here, again you are using a poor translation. Here is what the ESV (a more accurate Protestant Translation) states:

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

There is nothing in the above verses that contradicts the Catholic doctrine of purgatory, in our view. You understand the Scripture differently than we do, and we reject your interpretation of Scripture.

But notice that Paul says that we are reconciled in the past tense and that we are holy without blemish and unreprovable before Him in the present tense. Paul was teaching to sinners.

“yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22‬ ‭ASV‬‬

One question I have is where are venial sins or temporal punishment mentioned in the bible and why does the catholic church believe these sins are not removed? According to Colossians 1:22 all sin is removed.

W2L · Aug 13, 2017

Catholics are going to purgatory but everyone else is a new creature. Is that about right?

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

PeaceB · Aug 13, 2017

BNR32FAN said:
But notice that Paul says that we are reconciled in the past tense and that we are holy without blemish and unreprovable before Him in the present tense. Paul was teaching to sinners.

“yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him:”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22‬ ‭ASV‬‬

St. Paul did not state that "we are holy without blemish and unreprovable before Him in the present tense." The ASV states "And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven".

Notice the word "if" in the text. The word "if" indicates that the phrase that precedes it is a conditional phrase. That is, "to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him" is a conditional phrase. The condition on which our Lord will present you holy and blameless is if "ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven".

The text says nothing about people being holy and blameless before God at a present point in time. If tomorrow you renounce God, become an atheist, and gleefully go out raping and killing people until your death, do you think that Jesus will "present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him"? No. Of course not. Our Lord will "present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him" at some future point in time after "ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven".

That future point in time may be immediately upon your death, or after purgatory, should you end up in purgatory.

Again, there is nothing in Scripture that you are going to be able to produce here that refutes or is inconsistent with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Protestants have been attempting to do so for 500 years, and to no avail. What makes you think that post number #276 on Christian Forums will be the watershed moment that finally disproves the Catholic faith? Do you really think that you are going to be able to produce a verse from Scripture that disproves purgatory, when we have have thousands of intelligent priests, theologians, lay apologists among our ranks, who have already considered every verse of Scripture and argument that you will make a thousand times? Even if you come up with some novel argument that I have difficulty answering here, all I need to do is simply refer back to one of those thousands of people in the history of the Church, who has already considered your argument and has a powerful refutation of it.

You will debate on endlessly here, and you will never prove that Scripture contradicts the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. There are literally hundreds of pages from threads on this site where people have attempted to do so, and failed.

One question I have is where are venial sins or temporal punishment mentioned in the bible and why does the catholic church believe these sins are not removed? According to Colossians 1:22 all sin is removed.

Colossians 1:22 does not state that "all sin is removed". Colossians 1:22 (ASV) is cited above. As for your question, that information has been provided numerous times on this forum. I suggest that you use the search feature, which is quite useful. You can also find the information at Catholic Answers, or at numerous other places on the internet, using Google.

PeaceB · Aug 13, 2017

W2L said:
Catholics are going to purgatory but everyone else is a new creature. Is that about right?

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

So are you suggesting that Catholics are not in Christ, because we interpret Scripture differently than you do?

W2L · Aug 13, 2017

PeaceB said:
So are you suggesting that Catholics are not in Christ, because we interpret Scripture differently than you do?

No, im using Catholic reasoning to show how catholic doctrine is in error.

PeaceB · Aug 13, 2017

W2L said:
No, im using Catholic reasoning to show how catholic doctrine is in error.

You have not done a very convincing job of it.

W2L · Aug 13, 2017

PeaceB said:
You have not done a very convincing job of it.

I never though i would convince you, but i hope to plant a seed. Honestly think about what i posted. Paul says we are new creations, but Catholicism says we are not yet new, not till we go through the fire of purgatory.

amariselle · Aug 13, 2017

W2L said:
I never though i would convince you, but i hope to plant a seed. Honestly think about what i posted. Paul says we are new creations, but Catholicism says we are not yet new, not till we go through the fire of purgatory.

Scripture also says that Christ by Himself purged our sins. (Hebrews 1:3)

I wonder what Purgatory is able to accomplish that Christ's sacrifice apparently could not.

Is Purgatory real?

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