Is "Original Sin" true? What are your verses for and or against it?

[twin.spin]

The two questions you asked:
Q: Are you sure you have the right verse? (Acts 20:30)
A: Yes

Q: Are you not saying you are of Luther when you say you are a Lutheran?
A: No.

​

Explain the verses how you are right and I am wrong. If not, you are just saying you are correct without the Bible actually backing up what you are saying. I mean, why wouldn’t you explain your reasoning even now?

Acts 20:30 is self explanatory

"Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."​

There are multiple reasons from a Biblical perspective which Acts 20:30 would apply to a Non-Denominational church … reasons that are not in keeping with the topic of this OP.

I don't care to derail from this OP anymore than I have.
Have a good day

 

[Erik Nelson]

Michael Heiser's book Reversing Hermon adds to the story.

1st century Jews would have acknowledged a Demonic assault on earth, from the Nachash snake luring Eve in Eden (Gen 3) to the fallen Angels luring Eve's daughters before (and after) the Flood (Genesis 6:1-4).

So more than just one original sin (singular), but a demonic host of accumulated sins (plural)… cumulatively resulting in "then... the wickedness of man was great... every thought of their hearts was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5).

All of those demonic influences, from Eden onwards, contributed to depravity.

Almost the whole human species was possessed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Acts 20:30 is self explanatory

"Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."​

There are multiple reasons from a Biblical perspective which Acts 20:30 would apply to a Non-Denominational church … reasons that are not in keeping with the topic of this OP.

I don't care to derail from this OP anymore than I have.
Have a good day

Then start another thread and leave a link so as to explain it to me.
Personally, I do not think you know how to explain them, and that is why you have not explained these verses so far.

In other words, just saying your right does not mean anything. You actually have to show us how your interpretation is correct.

 

[Tomb523]

Is "Original Sin" true?
What are your verses for and or against it?

You need to start with the question, what is original sin. Adam and Eve were created perfect, sinless and immortal beings. When they disobeyed God, they were transfigured into fleshly, mortal beings of which we are all today. Just as when we die and are raised again in a transfigured body that is capable of entering heaven, Adam and Eve suffered the reverse. They went from a heavenly body to a mortal body and thus all that they produced were mortal and in a state where their bodies and souls were in conflict. When we are in heaven we are told there is no more sin.

 

[Erik Nelson]

...Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?
Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9 and Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20

1. Yes, they do.
   1. (Exodus 20:5)--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   2. (Deuteronomy 5:9)--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   3. (Exodus 34:6-7)--"Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
   4. (1 Cor. 15:22)--"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
2. No, they don't.
   1. (Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
   2. (Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

Exodus 20:5 is, of course, among the ten commandments. The Ten Commandments are arranged in covenant form. The Suzerain-Vassal treaty pattern of the ancient near east is followed in the Ten Commandments. This arrangement included an introduction of who was making the covenant (Exodus 20:2), what the covenant maker had done (20:2), laws (20:3-17), rewards (20:6,12), and punishments (20:5, 7).

Covenantally, when a father misleads his family, the effects of that misleading are often felt for generations. This is because the father is being covenantally unfaithful, and God has stipulated that there are punishments to breaking the covenant with God. That is the case with these verses that deal with the sins visited upon the children. If a father rejects the covenant of God and takes his family into sin and rejects God, the children will suffer the consequences--often for several generations. Whether or not this is fair is not the issue. Sin is in the world; consequences of sin affected many generations.

On the other hand, Deuteronomy 24:16 is dealing with legal matters as the context 24:6-19 shows. Ezekiel 18:20 is merely recounting the Law of the Pentateuch. Therefore, the context of the second set of verses is dealing with the legality aspect within the Jewish court system. The previous set of verses deal with God visiting upon the descendants of the rebellious the consequences of the rebellious fathers' sins.

As a further note on this issue, there is a concept in the Bible called Federal Headship. This means that the male, the father, represents the family. We see this in the garden of Adam and Eve. She was the first one to eat of the fruit; she was the first one to sin. However, the Bible states that sin entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5)--not Eve.

Source:
https://carm.org/do-sons-bear-the-sins-of-their-fathers-or-not
(Note: I am not a Calvinist. So I do not agree with everything this author or website teaches; I merely agree with this particular article).



I see Hebrews 7:9-10 as talking about the genetic code of Levi was within Abraham's loins, so when Abraham tithed to Melchisedec, in a way Levi tithed to Melchisedec, too. For Levi would not exist without the genetic code of Abraham. Scripture says that Levi was within the loins of Abraham in some way. Levi was a part of Abraham. So in a way, Levi did tithe, too. We can say the same with Adam. Because all of humanity existed within the genetic code of Adam, when Adam sinned, we had sinned along with Adam (seeing we were a part of him).



Are we not a part of Adam genetically speaking? Is not a "sin nature" something that is inherently sinful? Do you not think that a sin nature exists because we have the stain of sin on us? A scorpion stings because it is within it's nature to do so. Were not animals effected by the Fall (or Adam's sin) in some way? Has not sin diseased our bodies to live less and less? These are just things that we have to think about. They cannot have no root cause. They have to have an origin.

Nuances?

There appears to be two (2) kinds of sin:

• crooked twisted depravity (Hebrew avon H5771)
• straying & missing the mark (Hebrew chet H2399)

Only the former transfers to descendants, e.g. "worshipping other gods" and:

1. Cain's depravity regarding Abel (Genesis 4:13)
2. Amorites' depravity (Genesis 15:16)
3. Sodom & Gomorrah's depravity (Genesis 19:15)
4. depravity of brothers regarding Joseph (Genesis 44:16)

Fratricide, sodomy & demon worship are avon. (Where there's one, expect the others?)

Hatred of brother & neighbor (Lev 19:17), sleeping with uncle's wife (Lev 20:20), cursing God (Lev 24:15), refusal to keep Passover (Num 9:13) are all chet.

In Eden, Adam followed Eve who followed the Nachash snake = Devil.

Adam < Eve < Nachash = Satan​

Hence, avon. Humanity fell under a Divine Sentence of capital punishment. Meanwhile, to make matters worse, other fallen Angels seduced many of Eve's daughters (Gen 6:1-4) to such an extent that every single thought in the brain matter of demonized mankind was evil (Gen 6:5):

Adam < Eve < Nachash = Satan (Gen 3)
……………..|……………..\
………daughters < fallen Angels (Gen 6)​

The Divine decree of capital punishment was finally satisfied on the Cross (satisfying God's Justice and irreversible decrees), so enabling God's Mercy to re-enter the scene.

 

[Erik Nelson]

You need to start with the question, what is original sin. Adam and Eve were created perfect, sinless and immortal beings. When they disobeyed God, they were transfigured into fleshly, mortal beings of which we are all today. Just as when we die and are raised again in a transfigured body that is capable of entering heaven, Adam and Eve suffered the reverse. They went from a heavenly body to a mortal body and thus all that they produced were mortal and in a state where their bodies and souls were in conflict. When we are in heaven we are told there is no more sin.

with respect, that's not what Scripture says

they were created fleshly beings

they were never immortal -- only the Tree of Life (which Eve & Adam were duped into forgoing) grants immortality

in God's Eternal Realm (Rev 22:2) the Tree of Life will grow abundantly and finally afford the faithful immortality

no human has ever yet been immortal -- otherwise God would not have had to expel humans from Eden for fear that they would (eat of the Tree of Life) and become immortal (Genesis 3:22)

"death" from eating the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Bad = Divine decree sentence of capital punishment for disobeying God

that capital punishment decree (God's Justice) was satisfied on the Cross (Christ took the penalty for humanity) so enabling God's Mercy to enter the story

 

[συνείδησις]

Only the former transfers to descendants, e.g. "worshipping other gods" and:

1. Cain's depravity regarding Abel (Genesis 4:13)
2. Amorites' depravity (Genesis 15:16)
3. Sodom & Gomorrah's depravity (Genesis 19:15)
4. depravity of brothers regarding Joseph (Genesis 44:16)

5. Father's avon visited on children to 4th generation. (Exodus 20:5)

 

[Erik Nelson]

... the first sin corrupted the entire human race and we became a race of sinners. Human beings are evil from our youth and slaves of the devil according to scripture.

This is why Jesus had to come, to deliver us from bondage to sin and death and reconcile back to God.

and more, Genesis 3 (Nachash snake tempts Eve) and Genesis 6 (fallen Angels seduce Eve's daughters)

(sorry for the 1st 45s)

 

[Erik Nelson]

5. Father's avon visited on children to 4th generation. (Exodus 20:5)

Correct -- the avon (Ex 20:5) is from worshipping other gods & idols (Ex 20:3-4)

 

[Erik Nelson]

I think that is what Paul meant when he said in Romans, "Death reigned from Adam to Moses."

The Nachash snake -- presumably Satan -- tempted Eve in Eden (Gen 3)
Fallen Angels seduced Eve's daughters before (and after) the Flood (Gen 6)

humanity was so demonized & demonically possessed that every thought was evil (Gen 6:5)

even Abraham's descendants were dragged down into bondage

there was no "come back" or "forward progress" until Moses freed the Israelites, and Elijah and the Prophets guided them, until the Messiah arrived to bring about blessings to humanity

Obviously, individual people didn't become immortal due to Moses... so "Life reigning from Moses onward" (as implied) must have some more abstract, figurative spiritual meaning, yes?

"Death" = Satan, God = "Life" = ultimate salvation of humanity as a species + resurrection of faithful unto eternal life at The End of earth time (Rev 20:11+)

 

[Erik Nelson]

Today we are not born in sin but born with the Penalty of sin which is death(Genesis 2:17). Children are not born with the Knowledge of good and evil(Deut 1:39)

and also Romans 3:23, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

human nature is somehow not compatible with the ultra-high standards of morality God demands (Matthew 5:21-30)

compared to God's hyper-morality, in both thought & deed, all are sinners, prone to temptation by the Accuser

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

and also Romans 3:23, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

human nature is somehow not compatible with the ultra-high standards of morality God demands (Matthew 5:21-30)

compared to God's hyper-morality, in both thought & deed, all are sinners, prone to temptation by the Accuser

Yes, once someone knows the Difference between Good and Evil they become guilty of sin.

2. Our flesh is weak(Romans 8:5-13; Romans 6:6; Galatians 5:19-24; Romans 7:19-25) so that it drives us to sin, but by the Spirit of the Lord and the Law of Christ we have a way to try an escape temptation and we have remission for sin.

 

[thesunisout]

This verse does not establish sin nature and, in fact, shows why we sin and that is because we desire something we do not and cannot have when we want it.

We desire it because our sin nature, which must be put to death by Christ. Ephesians 2:2-3 makes it clear:

in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

By nature we are children of wrath, and the reason for that is because of sin. Our very nature provokes the wrath of a holy God, and that wrath was satisfied at Calvary. So long as you exalt the goodness of man you will never rightly divide the word of truth. God gave His only begotten Son so that we should not perish but have everlasting life. God gave us Jesus because without Him we would all be lost.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We desire it because our sin nature, which must be put to death by Christ. Ephesians 2:2-3 makes it clear:

That is not what Genesis says nor James. It says we desire what sin offers for other reasons. Your position says God made Eve with a sin nature. Do you agree? Adam and Eve had a sin nature, right?

in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

By nature we are children of wrath, and the reason for that is because of sin. Our very nature provokes the wrath of a holy God, and that wrath was satisfied at Calvary.

Only those walking in the lusts if the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh are such. This does not include babies so it does not support your position.

So long as you exalt the goodness of man you will never rightly divide the word of truth.

When did I do that?!If you want to demonstrate that you rightly divide the word of truth, you cannot lie about what others have said.

God gave His only begotten Son so that we should not perish but have everlasting life. God gave us Jesus because without Him we would all be lost.

True and I agree. Doesn’t support the sin nature dogma though.

 

[Erik Nelson]

That is not what Genesis says nor James. It says we desire what sin offers for other reasons. Your position says God made Eve with a sin nature. Do you agree? Adam and Eve had a sin nature, right?
Only those walking in the lusts if the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh are such. This does not include babies so it does not support your position.

When did I do that?!If you want to demonstrate that you rightly divide the word of truth, you cannot lie about what others have said.True and I agree. Doesn’t support the sin nature dogma though.

I understand Michael Heiser to state that the Nachash tempting Eve in Eden (Gen 3) was a divine being, a fallen angel, Satan, the first of many to tempt human women (Gen 6:1-4).

Disobedience of God's express command in Eden threw humankind under a Divine decree of capital punishment, finally satisfied on the Cross.

Heiser states that 1st century Jews would have attributed most of the corruption of human nature unto depravity to the fallen angels demonizing humanity from before (and after) the Flood (Genesis 6:1-4) so thoroughly that every thought was evil continually (Genesis 6:5).

The original sin of Eden is more "legal" in that Adam through Eve followed another divine being, such that their depravity (Hebrew avon) was imputed to all of their descendants according to God's code of legal Justice.

The corruption of human nature unto continual depravity is the cumulative effect of all the demonic assaults of the fallen angels on women (Gen 6:1-4 --> Gen 6:5). The OT appears to corroborate the claims of (say) Olympias, mother of Alexander the Great, who alleged Zeus impregnated her or otherwise spiritually influenced her pregnancy.

 

[συνείδησις]

Heiser states that 1st century Jews would have attributed most of the corruption of human nature unto depravity to the fallen angels demonizing humanity from before (and after) the Flood (Genesis 6:1-4) so thoroughly that every thought was evil continually (Genesis 6:5).

After expulsion from Eden direct influence of demons was not required to corrupt human nature. All it took was for man to be born into a world separated from GOD's presence, as evidenced by Cain. Human nature apart from GOD naturally devolves into depravity.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I understand Michael Heiser to state that the Nachash tempting Eve in Eden (Gen 3) was a divine being, a fallen angel, Satan, the first of many to tempt human women (Gen 6:1-4).

Disobedience of God's express command in Eden threw humankind under a Divine decree of capital punishment, finally satisfied on the Cross.

Odd that God didn’t say this. I’m going with His view.

Heiser states that 1st century Jews would have attributed most of the corruption of human nature unto depravity to the fallen angels demonizing humanity from before (and after) the Flood (Genesis 6:1-4) so thoroughly that every thought was evil continually (Genesis 6:5).

Since many didn’t know their Messiah when he came, their depth of knowledge could be suspect.

The original sin of Eden is more "legal" in that Adam through Eve followed another divine being, such that their depravity (Hebrew avon) was imputed to all of their descendants according to God's code of legal Justice.

Problem is the description of the Judgement doesn’t include depravity from Adam but instead books of the deeds of each mans life. Adams sin is not mentioned at all. So this position is not supported in scripture as presented.

The corruption of human nature unto continual depravity is the cumulative effect of all the demonic assaults of the fallen angels on women (Gen 6:1-4 --> Gen 6:5).

Demons don’t tempt men?

The OT appears to corroborate the claims of (say) Olympias, mother of Alexander the Great, who alleged Zeus impregnated her or otherwise spiritually influenced her pregnancy.

I know of this and do not disagree but don’t see that this has anything to do with the events in the garden nor death that came into the world as a result.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Odd that God didn’t say this. I’m going with His view. Since many didn’t know their Messiah when he came, their depth of knowledge could be suspect.
Problem is the description of the Judgement doesn’t include depravity from Adam but instead books of the deeds of each mans life. Adams sin is not mentioned at all. So this position is not supported in scripture as presented.
Demons don’t tempt men?

I know of this and do not disagree but don’t see that this has anything to do with the events in the garden nor death that came into the world as a result.

1) Heiser argues that Scripture does attribute divinity to the Nachash in Eden (see video)

2) The many Jews aware of the fallen angels' influences in Gen 6:1-4 include Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4

3) How do you know what's in God's books? Surely everything God holds against each person, which could include guilt inherited from Adam

4) Genesis 6:1-4 only discusses divine beings seducing human women, daughters of Eve... by NT times, obviously many men were demonically possessed, as noted in the gospels

5) Olympias & Alexander the Great fit the description of Gen 6:1-4 perfectly, with Alexander being a "man of renown"

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1) Heiser argues that Scripture does attribute divinity to the Nachash in Eden (see video)

Is Heiser around to post? Otherwise I’m talking to you, not him.

2)The many Jews aware of the fallen angels' influences in Gen 6:1-4 include Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4

Neither say Adams nature was corrupted from their antics.

3) How do you know what's in God's books?

It says so, the deeds done in the body.

Surely everything God holds against each person, which could include guilt inherited from Adam

Surely not. How unfair! Going to hell for what someone else did. Is that just? How come no one mentions we will be judged for Adam’s sin?

4) Genesis 6:1-4 only discusses divine beings seducing human women, daughters of Eve... by NT times, obviously many men were demonically possessed, as noted in the gospels

There is no connection to demonic procreation and demonization.

5) Olympias & Alexander the Great fit the description of Gen 6:1-4 perfectly, with Alexander being a "man of renown"

Ive heard about this but these individuals don’t affect our nature.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In your previous post to me:

You need to break out your questions and comments into smaller bites, because I would have to write a book of answers to address some of the wrong conclusions your author has drawn.

I am sorry. I am not going to change my writing style for you (anymore than you would). If I do not provide the most extensive answer, then I am withholding important information. Personally, I find it confusing that you would quote me without using the quote feature. But I would not have brought it up (if you did not criticize my writing style).

Why did God not just start over instead of making all humans “sinners” at conception?

We inherited a sin nature.

Ephesians 2:3 says we are by nature children of wrath.

A sin nature is not neutral. A sin nature is something sinful. It is sin because it leads you into sin.

Paul told us about his struggle with his sin nature when he was a Pharisee (Before he accepted Christ as His Savior) in Romans 7:14-24.

In Romans 8:3-4, Paul says,

3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

Jesus condemned sin (and or the sin nature in the flesh), so that the righteousness of the Law (i.e. To love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) might be fulfilled in us.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

God is just and this would not be just, so is God unjust in doing this?

God never does anything unjust. So how do we explain what you believe to be a violation of God's morality.

Let me give you an example: A baby who is born addicted to crack cocaine because his mother smoked crack while he was in her womb. Just as the "addiction" is passed through the mother's blood, so it is that the sin nature [or the state of sin] is passed down the lineage of man. Does this mean God is unjust for allowing the baby to be hooked on crack when he grows up? No. David sinned and his unborn son died. We are a part of our parents and sin has consequences.

Was it fair that the sinless Son of God died for our sins when He did not deserve it?

The Jews had a lot of wonder stuff passed down to them form Abrahams wonderful relationship with God including the paying of a tithe to Melchizedek. The describing of Levi as being not yet a descendant of Abraham is very poetic, but that does not mean Abrahams sins were also past down to Levi.

See that's the problem. Everyone wants the good passed down to them, but they never want the bad.

Sin is not something physical that can be past down (like a gene).

I would say that it is primarily a sin nature that I would call as "sin."
Surely you cannot argue the point that man does not have a sin nature.
Both life and the Bible say we have one.
See Ephesians 2:3 (Well, unless of course you crucify the affections and lusts by Christ).


Source used:
http://guidrynews.com/story.aspx?id=1000009211