Is "Original Sin" true? What are your verses for and or against it?

[bling]

We inherited a sin nature.

Ephesians 2:3 says we are by nature children of wrath.

A sin nature is not neutral. A sin nature is something sinful. It is sin because it leads you into sin.

Paul told us about his struggle with his sin nature when he was a Pharisee (Before he accepted Christ as His Savior) in Romans 7:14-24.

The “answer” to why God did not just start over after Adam sinned is:

Nothing would have changed, Adam was made as good as a human could be made parented (programmed) to adulthood by the very best parent.

Adam failed to fulfill his earthly objective in the Garden situation, partly to demonstrate to Adam and the rest of us the Garden type situation is a Lousy (impossible) place to fulfill our earthly objective, but it is the kind of place God wants us to be, so heaven is real.

YES, ALL MATURE ADULTS WILL SIN!!

It is human nature to sin, but that was not the result of Adam sinning, but the result of human nature which Adam had also.

People are trying to take the blame off God for making humans with a sinful nature and put it on Adam for sinning which changed human nature.

It is either Adam’s fault nor God’s fault man is born with a nature to sin!

Man is not “born” with something that causes him to sin but is born lacking something which can keep him from sinning (including Adam). What man lacks, is also why man spends time on earth, because earth is the only place man can obtain what he needs not to sin.

If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when He can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is totally unselfish type Love. Since this God would be able to direct our thinking, why would He have us think of him as being totally bad, when He could make us think bad was good and thus He would be worthy of praise? If God were bad and we praise a “Good God” than we are not praising Him.


The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.


God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.


Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.


All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.

 

[Tomb523]

with respect, that's not what Scripture says

they were created fleshly beings

Yes, but not in the same way. When Jesus rose from the dead, His fleshly body had been transfigured so it could enter heaven. I believe based on context, Adam and Eve's initial bodies were of that same substance and was reverse transfigured to what we have now. Jesus's transfigured body was flesh as well and thus allowed Thomas to feel His wounds.

 

[Erik Nelson]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'd be afraid saying something like that. The same as questioning God's Word.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." John 1:8-10

One of the very interesting stories in the Bible is Adam and Eve and it makes you wonder why they didn't remain in paradise for very long (Less than a week? Less than a day?) as they were perfect humans. I'm imperfect and think I'd last about two years until I was tricked or fell for some huge lie.

I believe 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 is a warning to the brethren to not think like the false gnostics (who were trying to seduce them) into thinking that sin does not exist or is an illusion. Today, we have Christian Scientists who think sin is an illusion (or is not true). So these two verses would apply to them. Today, there are people who think Jesus pays for their future sin by having a belief on Jesus (so that means that if they sin again, they are still forgiven regardless if they confess their sin or not). But 1 John 1:8 is a warning for them not to think this way because sin can cause a separation between God and man and confession of sin to the Lord Jesus Christ is the proper way to deal with sin (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

As for Adam and Eve:

Well, they might have been perfect in the sense of being temporarily perfect, but they were not perfect in the sense that they were immune to sin (obviously).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You need to start with the question, what is original sin. Adam and Eve were created perfect, sinless and immortal beings. When they disobeyed God, they were transfigured into fleshly, mortal beings of which we are all today. Just as when we die and are raised again in a transfigured body that is capable of entering heaven, Adam and Eve suffered the reverse. They went from a heavenly body to a mortal body and thus all that they produced were mortal and in a state where their bodies and souls were in conflict. When we are in heaven we are told there is no more sin.

I do not believe Adam and Eve had a heavenly body. They were flesh and blood, but they were never corrupted by sin. They had free will to choose good or to sin. They chose sin and we are now living with the consequences of that choice. Granted, we all would have made the same choice if we were in their shoes. For they were our Federal Head representatives. We are all a part of Adam and Eve.

Now, were Adam and Eve perfect? As the Bible describes perfection? Yes. For the devil is said to be perfect in his ways until iniquity was found within him. This would be a perfection that only exists within the present moment and it would not be a forever perfection or the kind of perfection whereby they could not sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The “answer” to why God did not just start over after Adam sinned is:

Well, I never asked you this question with me seeking such an answer to it.

Nothing would have changed, Adam was made as good as a human could be made parented (programmed) to adulthood by the very best parent.

Well, I believe it was possible for Adam and Eve to make the right choice and not the wrong choice. Otherwise they did not have free will and God merely wanted them to sin (as their only choice). But this is not the case. For God cannot tempt man to do evil. For it is written,

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" (James 1:13).

Adam failed to fulfill his earthly objective in the Garden situation, partly to demonstrate to Adam and the rest of us the Garden type situation is a Lousy (impossible) place to fulfill our earthly objective, but it is the kind of place God wants us to be, so heaven is real.

No. This is not true. It was not impossible for Adam and Eve not to sin in the Garden. Otherwise, God could not punish them. For example: If you knew your dog had an uncontrollable pooping problem because it was sick, would you smack and yell at the poor animal because it pooped on your carpet? I sure hope not. Do you not think God is upset with man when he sins?

YES, ALL MATURE ADULTS WILL SIN!!

Is this something you want to be true, or is this a teaching in the Bible?
Yes, all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, but with Jesus Christ, a person can be transformed spiritually and with Jesus, they can crucify the affections and lusts (See Galatians 5:24, Romans 13:14).

It is human nature to sin, but that was not the result of Adam sinning, but the result of human nature which Adam had also.

Do you believe God placed it into Adam and Eve's nature that they and all their offspring are to sin as a part of their nature as if that was their only choice?

People are trying to take the blame off God for making humans with a sinful nature and put it on Adam for sinning which changed human nature.

And I told you that I am not seeking to shift all blame to Adam and Eve. Every person will ultimately be held accountable for their own sin, unless of course they repent of their sins to Jesus and follow Him.

It is either Adam’s fault nor God’s fault man is born with a nature to sin!

Of course it is not God's fault man is born with a sin nature. But you are wrong that it is not Adam's fault that we are born with a sin nature. What matters is how do we deal with our situation. We can choose to go down the path of Adam and sin, or we can make the right choice and follow Jesus Christ and His righteousness.

Man is not “born” with something that causes him to sin but is born lacking something which can keep him from sinning (including Adam). What man lacks, is also why man spends time on earth, because earth is the only place man can obtain what he needs not to sin.

Then why does Scripture say the following?

"...and were by nature the children of wrath," (Ephesians 2:3).

It says it is in our nature that we are children of wrath.

If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when He can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is totally unselfish type Love. Since this God would be able to direct our thinking, why would He have us think of him as being totally bad, when He could make us think bad was good and thus He would be worthy of praise? If God were bad and we praise a “Good God” than we are not praising Him.

Please clarify this paragraph. I am not following what you are trying to say.

The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

The objective given to Adam (by God) is not the same objective given to us believers in Jesus Christ.

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure,

Nowhere did I ever say that it was. You are falsely assuming I believe that (When such is not the case).

but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

Yes, I believe that we have to conform to be like God and love selflessly other people (Especially the poor, and those who suffer here on this Earth). I believe we have to deny ourselves, pick up our cross, and to follow Jesus. We cannot live for ourselves but we have to live for God. I have put away secular entertainment (like secular movies, music, etc.). I desire to be more like Christ every day. But it is only possible by the power of Jesus Christ (Who is God).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

I agree. No argument there.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Well, God does exist. So there is no "what if" about His existence.

As for your other point:

Well, I never made a case that we can try and get things from God so as to be happy here in this life. We are to put our treasures in heaven and not here upon this Earth. I believe that 100%. The true treasure are the fruits of the Spirit and in loving others here (and not in loving ourselves).

Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

I am not in disagreement that we have free will. I do not believe God forces His love on anyone. I am against Calvinism.

As for the rest of what you said:
Well, I may reply to them at another time (if I feel it is fruitful).

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you (even if we may disagree).

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

~ Jason.

 

[Kerensa]

I believe 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 is a warning to the brethren to not think like the false gnostics (who were trying to seduce them) into thinking that sin does not exist or is an illusion. Today, we have Christian Scientists who think sin is an illusion (or is not true). So these two verses would apply to them.

As a Christian Scientist, friend, I'd just like to have a quick word here, if I may.

It's true that Christian Science teaches that sin is not real — which is to say it is not created or sanctioned by God, has no true substance, and has no place in the ultimate reality of things. There have been other Christian thinkers through the ages who have come to much the same conclusion, my favourite example being Julian of Norwich. BUT at the same time, sin needs to be taken deadly seriously in all its forms, in every aspect of our human lives — it needs to be recognised for what it is, faced up to, grappled with and destroyed through the power of Christ.

It is absolutely true to say of unredeemed human nature, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us... If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:8, 10) That is the Adam nature — the mortal nature, the "old man" — that we need to put off (which can't be done without recognising and admitting its sinfulness, its un-Godlikeness, and rejecting it) as we "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24). That "new man" is the Christly nature, made in the image and likeness of God, which John also refers to later in the same epistle: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

I'd be happy to discuss any of this further via PM or in another thread, but definitely don't want to sidetrack this discussion, so I'll leave it at that — apologies for the interruption.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As a Christian Scientist, friend, I'd just like to have a quick word here, if I may.

It's true that Christian Science teaches that sin is not real — which is to say it is not created or sanctioned by God, has no true substance, and has no place in the ultimate reality of things. There have been other Christian thinkers through the ages who have come to much the same conclusion, my favourite example being Julian of Norwich. BUT at the same time, sin needs to be taken deadly seriously in all its forms, in every aspect of our human lives — it needs to be recognised for what it is, faced up to, grappled with and destroyed through the power of Christ.

It is absolutely true to say of unredeemed human nature, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us... If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:8, 10) That is the Adam nature — the mortal nature, the "old man" — that we need to put off (which can't be done without recognising and admitting its sinfulness, its un-Godlikeness, and rejecting it) as we "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24). That "new man" is the Christly nature, made in the image and likeness of God, which John also refers to later in the same epistle: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

I'd be happy to discuss any of this further via PM or in another thread, but definitely don't want to sidetrack this discussion, so I'll leave it at that — apologies for the interruption.

I do not believe the Christian Science religion is Biblical. No offense, but I am not interested in debating it, either, my friend.

I am currently interested in discussing the topic of Original Sin with those who believe similar in the Bible (as I do).

 

[Kerensa]

No offence taken, brother.

 

[twin.spin]

twin.spin said: ↑
Acts 20:30 is self explanatory
"Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."
There are multiple reasons from a Biblical perspective which Acts 20:30 would apply to a Non-Denominational church … reasons that are not in keeping with the topic of this OP.

I don't care to derail from this OP anymore than I have.
Have a good day ​

Then start another thread and leave a link so as to explain it to me.
Personally, I do not think you know how to explain them, and that is why you have not explained these verses so far.

In other words, just saying your right does not mean anything. You actually have to show us how your interpretation is correct.

There is no need for a special OP to educate you when there are multiple OP's here or elsewhere.

Generally speaking Acts 20:30 is applicable to Non-Denominational churches understanding and teaching of Baptism, the Lord’s Supper and faith/conversion. Non-denominational churches can easily have unscriptural views toward these doctrines. Many a posts have been presented that "explains" these doctrines either by myself and by others for you to educate yourself with.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

twin.spin said: ↑
Acts 20:30 is self explanatory
"Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."
There are multiple reasons from a Biblical perspective which Acts 20:30 would apply to a Non-Denominational church … reasons that are not in keeping with the topic of this OP.

I don't care to derail from this OP anymore than I have.
Have a good day ​

There is no need for a special OP to educate you when there are multiple OP's here or elsewhere.

Generally speaking Acts 20:30 is applicable to Non-Denominational churches understanding and teaching of Baptism, the Lord’s Supper and faith/conversion. Non-denominational churches can easily have unscriptural views toward these doctrines. Many a posts have been presented that "explains" these doctrines either by myself and by others for you to educate yourself with.

Your not getting what I said.
But that’s okay.

In any event, may God bless you.

 

[jamesbond007]

As for Adam and Eve:

Well, they might have been perfect in the sense of being temporarily perfect, but they were not perfect in the sense that they were immune to sin (obviously).

This is where I disagree that sin is not real. After God blessed Adam and Eve, the first command God gave was, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Genesis 1:28 (This is where I get my interest in fishes, birds and animals, as well as sex .)

God's second command is the one with the warning in it. "15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Genesis 1:15-17

After that, I'd probably talk with Eve about moving elsewhere, far from the ToK. This is where temptation and sin was created. To have good, one has to have bad, in this case, disobeying God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is where I disagree that sin is not real. After God blessed Adam and Eve, the first command God gave was, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Genesis 1:28 (This is where I get my interest in fishes, birds and animals, as well as sex .)

God's second command is the one with the warning in it. "15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Genesis 1:15-17

After that, I'd probably talk with Eve about moving elsewhere, far from the ToK. This is where temptation and sin was created. To have good, one has to have bad, in this case, disobeying God.

Yes, I believe sin is very real.
I do not believe we are under the same commands given to Adam, though.
But I believe we inherited a sin nature from Adam (Which I believe is a sinful thing).
For we will not have sinful natures in Heaven.
Sinful natures are a corruption and or something bad.