Is "Original Sin" true? What are your verses for and or against it?

[FenderTL5]

I'm no expert on this topic and don't want to get into lengthy debates, but I read this pair of articles a while ago and found them very helpful in clarifying why the concept of "original sin", as traditionally understood, isn't actually supported by the Bible...

5 Old Testament Reasons Why Original Sin Doesn't Work

Was There a "Fall" or Did Augustine Really Screw Everything Up?

Thanks for those links, I enjoyed reading them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It comforts people to take the blame off themselves and blame someone else like Adam and Eve.

This may be the case for some believers, but not for me. I believe we sinned in Adam because we were a part of Adam genetically. Levi paid tithes in Abraham (Hebrews 7:9-10). Besides, I know I am not off the hook. For we are ultimately going to be held accountable by our works, too; For man will be judged by his works (Romans 2:6) (Revelation 20:12).

I am also open to hearing different viewpoints on this issue besides the view that says we were born 100% innocent. For if we were born 100% innocent, then somebody (Besides Jesus) would have lived a sinless life by pure mathematical probability. Also, the story of the fall of Adam and Eve would not really mean that much, either. The "Fall" really wouldn't be the "Fall" of man.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Whether each individual decides their own doctrine for themselves based on their own understanding of Scripture or whether the church should come together in council as modeled in scripture to make the doctrinal decisions is a completely separate topic and discussion.. and usually a contentious one I'd rather not participate in.

I am just letting you know my preference and experience. I find most churches with a denominational name to be unbiblical these days. I did not mean to step on your toes or to argue. I am just letting you know what I believe because I feel it is important. Scripture says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15).

I posted the link to Orthodox wiki because the ancient, eastern thought on this topic is usually overwhelmed in discussion dominated by Christians influenced by traditional western (Catholic/Protestant) teachings. It gets to be too many rabbit trails to follow after a while.

Understood.

May God bless you greatly today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Original sin" is the spiritual death that Adam passed on to all of his offspring. Through Adam's sin death passed to all men, and through death all men sin. All men being born spiritually dead (i.e., separated from GOD) are unable to know the perfect will of GOD, and thus all will eventually sin.

I am intrigued by this viewpoint and would like to see more Scripture besides Romans 5:12 on it.

Thank you for sharing your view.

May God's love shine upon you today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Orthodox Church teaches that no one is guilty for the actual sin Adam/Eve committed (other than Adam/Eve) but rather everyone inherits the consequences of this act; the foremost of this is physical death in this world. This is the reason why the original fathers of the Church over the centuries have preferred the term ancestral sin. (Gr. προπατορικό αμάρτημα). -a lot more-

The link you provided does not answer whether or not you inherit a sinful nature or not. Do you believe we inherit a sin nature?

Ephesians 2:3 appears to teach that we are by nature, children of wrath. How do we become by nature children of wrath? Was it by Adam or just by our own doing? I am curious as to what you believe on this. I don't want to argue. I am just curious as to what you believe and what Scripture you might have.

Peace and blessings be unto you today.

 

[συνείδησις]

I am intrigued by this viewpoint and would like to see more Scripture besides Romans 5:12 on it.
Thank you for sharing your view.
May God's love shine upon you today.

Another possible passage to consider is Genesis 3:22-23. Because of his sin Adam was prevented from anymore eating of the tree of life. IMO man was not made immortal, so without access to the tree of life he dies. So in this way death passed to all men because of Adam's sin.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. Genesis 3:22-23​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Another possible passage to consider is Genesis 3:22-23. Because of his sin Adam was prevented from anymore eating of the tree of life. IMO man was not made immortal, so without access to the tree of life he dies. So in this way death passed to all men because of Adam's sin.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. Genesis 3:22-23​

Thanks.

*Gives you a macho man hug in the Lord*

I still have to do my homework (Compare Scripture with Scripture) and still examine all the different viewpoints still, and pray a lot more on this topic (of course). But again, thank you for this passage.

God bless you today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am going to create 3 columns on a table or graph.

Something like this:

Potential Original Sin Viewpoints:

1. The sin and sin nature passed down viewpoint.
2. The sin nature (not sin) passed down viewpoint.
3. The death passed down viewpoint.

Then I will try and fit Scripture into each of these categories and be honest as I can with myself in what those verses actually say. I will then pray about it a lot, and keep reading a ton of Christian articles on each of these viewpoint (if possible).

 

[Rubiks]

Man is weak and mortal, but sinfulness would argue sinfulness is spread by human social influence, not by human conception. Jesus says in Matthew 19:14 (NRSV) but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs.”

It seems abundantly clear humans are born in a neutral state which is influenced by their surroundings.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Man is weak and mortal, but sinfulness would argue sinfulness is spread by human social influence, not by human conception. Jesus says in Matthew 19:14 (NRSV) but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs.”

It seems abundantly clear humans are born in a neutral state which is influenced by their surroundings.

It sounds good. I believe that verse, too. But what do you make of the following verses?

"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Ephesians 2:3).

• Genesis 8:21 - The Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”
• Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
• Job 5:7 - Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.
• Proverbs 22:15 - "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child;"
• Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
• Matthew 26:41 - "...The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Please take note that the very verse you quote is one of the biblical reasons I found to defend how babies (who die) go to Heaven. Granted, we shouldn't need a verse to know that they go to Heaven, but the Bible does imply it indeed.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I believe in original sin and the total depravity of man.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe in original sin and the total depravity of man.

Which Original Sin Viewpoint do you hold to?

1. The sin and sin nature passed down viewpoint.
2. The sin nature (not sin) passed down viewpoint.
3. The death passed down viewpoint.
4. Other (Please explain).

 

[Hazelelponi]

Which Original Sin Viewpoint do you hold to?

1. The sin and sin nature passed down viewpoint.
2. The sin nature (not sin) passed down viewpoint.
3. The death passed down viewpoint.
4. Other (Please explain).

The sin nature.

The Bible states clearly that man is not responsible for the sins of his fathers.. so sin itself isn't passed on, but the nature is.

Ezekiel 18:20 to reference the above.

https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2010-05-psychologists-babies-wrong-months.html

The above is good to read.. it shows that we aren't a moral blank slate who is necessary taught right from wrong by nurture. While nurture influences, we do have the ability to recognize good and bad possibility from birth..

From the above, it is easy to conceive then of verses which state that man thinks evil continually from his youth. God's version of good is far from our version..as Jesus said:

Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

Does this help?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The sin nature.

The Bible states clearly that man is not responsible for the sins of his fathers.. so sin itself isn't passed on, but the nature is.

Ezekiel 18:20 to reference the above.

https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2010-05-psychologists-babies-wrong-months.html

The above is good to read.. it shows that we aren't a moral blank slate who is necessary taught right from wrong by nurture. While nurture influences, we do have the ability to recognize good and bad possibility from birth..

From the above, it is easy to conceive then of verses which state that man thinks evil continually from his youth. God's version of good is far from our version..as Jesus said:

Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

Does this help?

Yes, I am definitely inclined to believe we have a sin nature based on Ephesians 2:3, Genesis 8:21, Psalms 58:3, Job 5:7, Proverbs 22:15, Jeremiah 17:9, Matthew 26:41. The sin nature is included in all three of the viewpoints I presented.

As for the "sin" of Adam being passed down:

Check out my post #25 within this thread if you are interested. It explains this viewpoint using Scripture.

 

[twin.spin]

I am just letting you know my preference and experience. I find most churches with a denominational name to be unbiblical these days. I did not mean to step on your toes or to argue. I am just letting you know what I believe because I feel it is important. Scripture says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15).



Understood.

May God bless you greatly today.

Since you've let it be known that you find unbiblical about most churches with a denominational name … it should then not surprise you that certain churches with a denominational name then will find non-denominational to be unbiblical these days as Acts 20:30 teaches.

 

[συνείδησις]

I am going to create 3 columns on a table or graph.

Something like this:

Potential Original Sin Viewpoints:

1. The sin and sin nature passed down viewpoint.
2. The sin nature (not sin) passed down viewpoint.
3. The death passed down viewpoint.

Then I will try and fit Scripture into each of these categories and be honest as I can with myself in what those verses actually say. I will then pray about it a lot, and keep reading a ton of Christian articles on each of these viewpoint (if possible).

Another thing to consider, though I don't know where you would fit it in, is the fact that GOD apparently visits father's sins on their children to the 4th generation. Not sure exactly what that means, but it sounds like some type of spiritual hereditary influence is involved to some degree.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:4-6​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Since you've let it be known that you find unbiblical about most churches with a denominational name … it should then not surprise you that certain churches with a denominational name then will find non-denominational to be unbiblical these days as Acts 20:30 teaches.

Are you sure you have the right verse?

Acts of the Apostles 20:30 simply says this.

"Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." (Acts of the Apostles 20:30).

I do not see anything mentioned here in Acts saying,

"And if your church does not have a denominational name, you are accursed."

On the contrary, I see Scripture condemning the idea that we should be a follower of a particular believer's name.

3 "For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
(1 Corinthians 3:3-4).

Are you not saying you are of Luther when you say you are a Lutheran?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Another thing to consider, though I don't know where you would fit it in, is the fact that GOD apparently visits father's sins on their children to the 4th generation. Not sure exactly what that means, but it sounds like some type of spiritual hereditary influence is involved to some degree.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:4-6​

Yes, I will have to read a ton of good Christian articles on this passage and how that fits in with the different viewpoints.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I am strongly against the Pre-existence of the human soul. I have argued against that topic many times before with Scripture and find it to be extremely unbiblical (with it being sort of like reincarnation).

As for Deuteronomy 24:16:

Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?
Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9 and Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20

1. Yes, they do.
   1. (Exodus 20:5)--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   2. (Deuteronomy 5:9)--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
   3. (Exodus 34:6-7)--"Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
   4. (1 Cor. 15:22)--"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
2. No, they don't.
   1. (Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
   2. (Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

Exodus 20:5 is, of course, among the ten commandments. The Ten Commandments are arranged in covenant form. The Suzerain-Vassal treaty pattern of the ancient near east is followed in the Ten Commandments. This arrangement included an introduction of who was making the covenant (Exodus 20:2), what the covenant maker had done (20:2), laws (20:3-17), rewards (20:6,12), and punishments (20:5, 7).

Covenantally, when a father misleads his family, the effects of that misleading are often felt for generations. This is because the father is being covenantally unfaithful, and God has stipulated that there are punishments to breaking the covenant with God. That is the case with these verses that deal with the sins visited upon the children. If a father rejects the covenant of God and takes his family into sin and rejects God, the children will suffer the consequences--often for several generations. Whether or not this is fair is not the issue. Sin is in the world; consequences of sin affected many generations.

On the other hand, Deuteronomy 24:16 is dealing with legal matters as the context 24:6-19 shows. Ezekiel 18:20 is merely recounting the Law of the Pentateuch. Therefore, the context of the second set of verses is dealing with the legality aspect within the Jewish court system. The previous set of verses deal with God visiting upon the descendants of the rebellious the consequences of the rebellious fathers' sins.

As a further note on this issue, there is a concept in the Bible called Federal Headship. This means that the male, the father, represents the family. We see this in the garden of Adam and Eve. She was the first one to eat of the fruit; she was the first one to sin. However, the Bible states that sin entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5)--not Eve.

Source:
https://carm.org/do-sons-bear-the-sins-of-their-fathers-or-not
(Note: I am not a Calvinist. So I do not agree with everything this author or website teaches; I merely agree with this particular article).



I see Hebrews 7:9-10 as talking about the genetic code of Levi was within Abraham's loins, so when Abraham tithed to Melchisedec, in a way Levi tithed to Melchisedec, too. For Levi would not exist without the genetic code of Abraham. Scripture says that Levi was within the loins of Abraham in some way. Levi was a part of Abraham. So in a way, Levi did tithe, too. We can say the same with Adam. Because all of humanity existed within the genetic code of Adam, when Adam sinned, we had sinned along with Adam (seeing we were a part of him).



Are we not a part of Adam genetically speaking? Is not a "sin nature" something that is inherently sinful? Do you not think that a sin nature exists because we have the stain of sin on us? A scorpion stings because it is within it's nature to do so. Were not animals effected by the Fall (or Adam's sin) in some way? Has not sin diseased our bodies to live less and less? These are just things that we have to think about. They cannot have no root cause. They have to have an origin.

It will be days before I can get into that level of a discussion with you..so it's up to you if your willing to wait.

As for a respectful discussion that is clear, I could - likely next week..

I have a doctor's ordeal tomorrow and I'll be in too much pain for a couple days after that to think straight, but after that I should be good to go, but I would ask you shoot me a reminder message. I occasionally have CRS disease.. lol

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It will be days before I can get into that level of a discussion with you..so it's up to you if your willing to wait.

As for a respectful discussion that is clear, I could - likely next week..

I have a doctor's ordeal tomorrow and I'll be in too much pain for a couple days after that to think straight, but after that I should be good to go, but I would ask you shoot me a reminder message. I occasionally have CRS disease.. lol

I am patient. I can wait. I will do a lot of reading of Christian articles in the mean time. Well, not too much (like I would like) because I have work and I have my own project for God that I am working on, too.

As for your doctor's appointment and pain for the following few days:

I will pray everything goes well for you and pray that you have a quick and less painful recovery.