Is Once Saved Always Saved Biblical?

[bling]

I'd say that unless the praising springs from a genuine Faith, it isn't worth much. On the other hand, HOW one GETS the Faith (election vs freewill) really wouldn't matter when it comes to the "value."

OK

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have heard both sides of this discussion and would like to hear others opinions on this subject. I agree with both sides of the argument but I kind of lean towards the side that's says that you can lose salvation.

Since OSAS and OSNAS are antithetical and polar opposites, how can you "agree with both sides of the argument".

To believe one side automatically means to disbelieve the other side.

Reminds me of the phrase, "you can't have it both ways".

Here's why: Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26. However, I feel like these verses line up with OSAS: Philippians 1:6, John 10:28, and Ephesians 4:30. I could also see why OSAS is biblical because of John 6:37 and the story of the prodigal son. Can someone give their opinion on whether or not OSAS is true? Thanks in advance!

Rather than an opinion, since everyone has one, is to read what Jesus Himself said about security.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The red words are what Jesus gives to believers, per John 3:15,16 and 5:24.

The blue words are the result of what Jesus gives to believers.

Hence, at the moment one puts their faith/trust/belief in Jesus Christ as their Savior, they possess eternal life and "they shall never perish".

This is not an opinion. It is the very clear words of our Savior.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost, or a believer, who has been given eternal life, CAN perish, simply do not believe what Jesus clearly stated.

 

[corinth77777]

I have heard both sides of this discussion and would like to hear others opinions on this subject. I agree with both sides of the argument but I kind of lean towards the side that's says that you can lose salvation. Here's why: Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26. However, I feel like these verses line up with OSAS: Philippians 1:6, John 10:28, and Ephesians 4:30. I could also see why OSAS is biblical because of John 6:37 and the story of the prodigal son. Can someone give their opinion on whether or not OSAS is true? Thanks in advance!

Well this is some of what I have learnt in the past several years.

First...question is what does saved or salvation mean?

It depends on the context
But for a start to be saved is to have been delivered.

To say someone is my salvation...that sounds like a noun and can mean they are the one that can deliver me.

The second question is what is one delivered from?
Read EPHESIANS 2:8....
And you may find they are delivered from their trespasses and sin.....or you may find that they were dead in sins............and now have been quickened together with Christ.

Therefore what was the favor(grace) that we could not help ourselves with that God did for us through Christ?--->[made us alive]

And one can't read anymore in that passage then what it says. BUT ONE CAN ASKED THE QUESTION: WHY WERE WE MADE ALIVE?

DOES THE BIBLE state DIRECTLY IN ALL PASSAGES THAT we were saved SO WE CAN GO TO HEAVEN WHEN WE DIE?......OR does it say THAT HE SAVED US SO THAT WE WOULD LIVE SOBERLY AND RIGHTEOUSNESSLY IN THIS PRESENT WORLD.....DOES IT ALSO IN ANOTHER PASSAGE say THAT HE CAME THAT HE MIGHT DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL?............

BUT DO WE EVER ASKED HOW, WHEN AND WHERE THIS IS DONE?

SO LETS GO THROUGH THIS FROM THE TOP......THERE ARE DIFFERENT TYPES OF "DELIVERED" (saved) EXAMPLE: EPHESIANS 2:8
WE WERE DEAD.....AND DELIVERED FROM BEING DEAD

BUT NOW THAT WE ARE DELIVERED AND BROUGHT INTO THE LIGHT......THERE IS ANOTHER TYPE OF SAVED[BEING DELIVERED] YET BY THE SAME PERSON.
AND THAT IS IN THIS WORLD WE PRESENTLY LIVE......

AND THAT IS BY WALKING BY THE POWER oF His resurrected life by the Spirit.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1John 1:7

So reading the above when are you cleansed by the blood?

Therefore saved or being delivered from sins through cleansing by His blood happens when?----> IF we walk in the Light?

THEREFORE IT IS Christ who is secure ....and therefore one needs to remain in Him....where there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but the Spirit.....look that passage up......

Therefore what about those who walk after the flesh???

The whole purpose is that the New Covenant is how we are to be governed on earth...as the old govern Israel while they were on earth.....Therefore we are made alive in order that the works of the devil[separating us from God leading to perishing, existing but not living] will be destroyed as we obey the word.......
Stop walking by the Spirit and will your sins be forgiven? If not are you in a state of deliverence "saved" if you are walking by your own wants and desires and not God's. You cant be because one only is assured when they live out thier call.....in my opinion.
Asked Old Israel under the Law...who went their own way....were they saved, meaning under God's protection.......or did they have to repent in order for God to cleanse them?

Therefore it is God who is secure....and we have a choice on what will be important to us...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Apparently they didn't read Romans 7 or 1 Corenthians.

Brian,

I was thinking I have encountered this theology on CF - the idea that after being born again one does not sin...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I have heard both sides of this discussion and would like to hear others opinions on this subject. I agree with both sides of the argument but I kind of lean towards the side that's says that you can lose salvation. Here's why: Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26. However, I feel like these verses line up with OSAS: Philippians 1:6, John 10:28, and Ephesians 4:30. I could also see why OSAS is biblical because of John 6:37 and the story of the prodigal son. Can someone give their opinion on whether or not OSAS is true? Thanks in advance!

No, "once saved always saved" it is not biblical according to the scriptures. The scriptures you quoted from Philippians 1:6, John 10:28, and Ephesians 4:30 are God's promises that are "conditional" on believing and following what Gods' word says always in the present tense of "believing" therefore being "in the faith" means to believe and follow what God's Word says. If someone chooses to "depart the faith" (Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39) they are no longer "believing" but have become "unbelieving" therefore Gods' promises no longer apply because they are all conditional promises to believing and according to the scriptures, whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23 and without faith it is impossible to please God *Hebrews 11:6. If our salvation is by God's grace "through faith" then if we have no faith how can we have God's grace and salvation? We cannot see Ephesians 2:8-9; John 3:36. As it is written in the very words of Jesus in John 3:36 "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him".

God bless

 

[Carl Emerson]

Since OSAS and OSNAS are antithetical and polar opposites, how can you "agree with both sides of the argument".

To believe one side automatically means to disbelieve the other side.

Reminds me of the phrase, "you can't have it both ways".


Rather than an opinion, since everyone has one, is to read what Jesus Himself said about security.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The red words are what Jesus gives to believers, per John 3:15,16 and 5:24.

The blue words are the result of what Jesus gives to believers.

Hence, at the moment one puts their faith/trust/belief in Jesus Christ as their Savior, they possess eternal life and "they shall never perish".

This is not an opinion. It is the very clear words of our Savior.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost, or a believer, who has been given eternal life, CAN perish, simply do not believe what Jesus clearly stated.

How much of the confusion has simply come from folks acting like what they think a Christian should be like and then giving up.

Then folks point to this as evidence of genuine salvation being lost.

 

[corinth77777]

Salvation...means deliverence
Saved- delivered

Protection, hiding place, rock..

What can a person be saved from?
A. Being dead in sin /saved by being made alive with Christ.
B. Saved from penalty of sin/ because Jesus paid the penalty
C. Saved from a quilty conscience b4 God
Because God can give you a clear conscience b4 Him through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
D. Saved from the power of sin effect/because..there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who walk after the Spirit.
E. Saved from the presence of sin......
F. Saved from the wrath of men

 

[corinth77777]

Salvation...means deliverence
Saved- delivered

Protection, hiding place, rock..

What can a person be saved from?
A. Being dead in sin /saved by being made alive with Christ.
B. Saved from penalty of sin/ because Jesus paid the penalty
C. Saved from a quilty conscience b4 God
Because God can give you a clear conscience b4 Him through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
D. Saved from the power of sin effect/because..there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who walk after the Spirit.
E. Saved from the presence of sin......
F. Saved from the wrath of men

If as one wise man said we think of salvation as "what we are doing with Jesus" then we can see.

Asked yourself when you are walking in your own power are you protected? Do you have peace and joy?

Why should we evaluate ourselves to see if we are walking according to the faith..

Do we know that Christ is in us?...if not we failed the test....

For eternal life is to Know God and Jesus Christ who He had sent...

And this means an intimate relationship like Jesus had with the father.....He said He always obeyed/pleased His father and His father never left Him alone .(that's salvstion)

Jesus was saved...protected because He abided under the wings/shadow of the His almighty father...

Therefore He knew His father had His back
For His father was with Him working in Him doing the work ....only when He was on the cross taking the sins of the world upon Himself did He feel forsaken...

We want our whole body, soul, and Spirit delivered.

 

[corinth77777]

If as one wise man said we think of salvation as "what we are doing with Jesus" then we can see.

Asked yourself when you are walking in your own power are you protected? Do you have peace and joy?

Why should we evaluate ourselves to see if we are walking according to the faith..

Do we know that Christ is in us?...if not we failed the test....

For eternal life is to Know God and Jesus Christ who He had sent...

And this means an intimate relationship like Jesus had with the father.....He said He always obeyed/pleased His father and His father never left Him alone .(that's salvstion)

Jesus was saved...protected because He abided under the wings/shadow of the His almighty father...

Therefore He knew His father had His back
For His father was with Him working in Him doing the work ....only when He was on the cross taking the sins of the world upon Himself did He feel forsaken...

We want our whole body, soul, and Spirit delivered.

So when I see first Peter 3:21
The Baptism that saves us now..
In my opinion...it's through the resurrection..
We defeat the works of the devil/flesh through walking by The power of the Holy Ghost. That's how the tree is made good then its fruit will be. It not what goes in the body that defiles it but what comes out....
God's love worked in us will produce good fruits others can eat/and see.

Now if I may..
Give an example In your life
how you are saved from the penalty presence and power of sin....

 

[Buzzard3]

I have heard both sides of this discussion and would like to hear others opinions on this subject. I agree with both sides of the argument but I kind of lean towards the side that's says that you can lose salvation. Here's why: Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26. However, I feel like these verses line up with OSAS: Philippians 1:6, John 10:28, and Ephesians 4:30. I could also see why OSAS is biblical because of John 6:37 and the story of the prodigal son. Can someone give their opinion on whether or not OSAS is true? Thanks in advance!

All you need to know about OSAS is that it's a useless, pointless and irrelevant doctrine that isn't even worth discussing.

It doesn't matter if you think you're already "saved" - everyone will be judged by Christ on the Last Day and he will decide if you will be saved or not.

 

[rwe2156]

No, "once saved always saved" it is not biblical according to the scriptures. The scriptures you quoted from Philippians 1:6, John 10:28, and Ephesians 4:30 are God's promises that are "conditional" on believing and following what Gods' word says always in the present tense of "believing" therefore being "in the faith" means to believe and follow what God's Word says. If someone chooses to "depart the faith" (Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39) they are no longer "believing" but have become "unbelieving" therefore Gods' promises no longer apply because they are all conditional promises to believing and according to the scriptures, whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23 and without faith it is impossible to please God *Hebrews 11:6. If our salvation is by God's grace "through faith" then if we have no faith how can we have God's grace and salvation? We cannot see Ephesians 2:8-9; John 3:36. As it is written in the very words of Jesus in John 3:36 "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him".

God bless

Yes, faith is not only a possession it is how we understand the world around us and our part in it.

But your interpretation is a very sad understanding of a determinate, work of the Spirit that is independent of man's will. Once born again and their heart will opened, a person faith is alive and whose sanctification is evidenced by works. It is most certainly not a possession.

"Believing" is certainly a condition of salvation, but believing is something only a born again person with a regenerated heart. We were dead in our sins and trespasses, now we are alive in Christ.

Those scriptures describe someone who "departed from the faith" as a visible act. They do not say what the reason is. Volumes of Scripture show an does not have the ability to "un" regenerate himself. Those who departed from the faith never had it do begin with. Just like the disciples who departed because the teaching was too hard - they were never true disciples to begin with.

Under this theology, is follows that you must believe that some how you are better, smarter, more spiritual, than your neighbor who you think abandoned their ship of faith.

No, if salvation could be lost then faith is like the wind can be lost through human will or decision, then we "unsaved" ourselves and the only what that can be true is if we saved ourselves.

The whole false doctrine begs the question if we can lose our salvation, can we get it back? If so, then what did Christ die for?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ No, "once saved always saved" it is not biblical according to the scriptures. The scriptures you quoted from Philippians 1:6, John 10:28, and Ephesians 4:30 are God's promises that are "conditional" on believing and following what Gods' word says always in the present tense of "believing" therefore being "in the faith" means to believe and follow what God's Word says. If someone chooses to "depart the faith" (Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39) they are no longer "believing" but have become "unbelieving" therefore Gods' promises no longer apply because they are all conditional promises to believing and according to the scriptures, whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23 and without faith it is impossible to please God *Hebrews 11:6. If our salvation is by God's grace "through faith" then if we have no faith how can we have God's grace and salvation? We cannot see Ephesians 2:8-9; John 3:36. As it is written in the very words of Jesus in John 3:36 "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him".

Your response here...

But your interpretation is a very sad understanding of a determinate, work of the Spirit that is independent of man's will. Once born again and their heart will opened, a person faith is alive and whose sanctification is evidenced by works. It is most certainly not a possession.

You might need to take that claim up with God as only God's Word was posted in the quote you are responding to which are not my words but God's Word which you disagree with with your words that are not Gods' Words but yours. So we might have to disagree here.

"Believing" is certainly a condition of salvation, but believing is something only a born again person with a regenerated heart. We were dead in our sins and trespasses, now we are alive in Christ.

Perhaps a question might help here. What comes first; being born again and what does that mean or Gods' Word and believing what Gods' Word says? - Think about it. Gods' Word comes first then believing what Gods' Word says *Romans 10:17 which leads us to being born again and walking in newness of life *see 1 John 3:4-9 and Romans 6:1-23.

Those scriptures describe someone who "departed from the faith" as a visible act. They do not say what the reason is. Volumes of Scripture show an does not have the ability to "un" regenerate himself. Those who departed from the faith never had it do begin with. Just like the disciples who departed because the teaching was too hard - they were never true disciples to begin with. Under this theology, is follows that you must believe that some how you are better, smarter, more spiritual, than your neighbor who you think abandoned their ship of faith.
No, if salvation could be lost then faith is like the wind can be lost through human will or decision, then we "unsaved" ourselves and the only what that can be true is if we saved ourselves. The whole false doctrine begs the question if we can lose our salvation, can we get it back? If so, then what did Christ die for?

Hebrews 6:4-8 and many other scriptures in the bible disagree with you here as they are warnings of people that have genuine faith and departed the faith so Gods' Word (not mine) disagrees with you here . There is also no scripture anywhere in the bible that says that a genuine believer cannot depart the faith at any time of our walk with Jesus. If that was the case "believers" would not be warned against departing the faith in Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 12:15; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1-7; Galatians 5:2-4; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Peter 3:17; Luke 8:11-15; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation but they can forfeit their salvation and willingly throw it away by rebelling against God and His Word.

Take care.

 

[fhansen]

I have heard both sides of this discussion and would like to hear others opinions on this subject. I agree with both sides of the argument but I kind of lean towards the side that's says that you can lose salvation. Here's why: Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26. However, I feel like these verses line up with OSAS: Philippians 1:6, John 10:28, and Ephesians 4:30. I could also see why OSAS is biblical because of John 6:37 and the story of the prodigal son. Can someone give their opinion on whether or not OSAS is true? Thanks in advance!

Well, the church has never supported a OSAS notion historically, in either the east or the west. And Scripture for the most part, by far, tells us that once we become children of God we're expected to live like it, now by the Spirit, by grace, overcoming sin and persisting in doing God's will in general. We must remain in Him, picking up our cross and following daily, "investing" our talents, doing the best we can with the grace we've been given, loving in return for the love we've been shown.

 

[corinth77777]

Yes, faith is not only a possession it is how we understand the world around us and our part in it.

But your interpretation is a very sad understanding of a determinate, work of the Spirit that is independent of man's will. Once born again and their heart will opened, a person faith is alive and whose sanctification is evidenced by works. It is most certainly not a possession.

"Believing" is certainly a condition of salvation, but believing is something only a born again person with a regenerated heart. We were dead in our sins and trespasses, now we are alive in Christ.

Those scriptures describe someone who "departed from the faith" as a visible act. They do not say what the reason is. Volumes of Scripture show an does not have the ability to "un" regenerate himself. Those who departed from the faith never had it do begin with. Just like the disciples who departed because the teaching was too hard - they were never true disciples to begin with.

Under this theology, is follows that you must believe that some how you are better, smarter, more spiritual, than your neighbor who you think abandoned their ship of faith.

No, if salvation could be lost then faith is like the wind can be lost through human will or decision, then we "unsaved" ourselves and the only what that can be true is if we saved ourselves.

The whole false doctrine begs the question if we can lose our salvation, can we get it back? If so, then what did Christ die for?

I think I agree with the other fellow...
I believe the scriptures you are using must be out of context. Rather the ones I believe you are thinking of. SALVATIONIONAL promises I do believe are conditions...

The Holy Spirit is given that you may follow it...
It's if by the Spirit you put away the deeds of the flesh you shall "LIVE". God tells our father Abraham that He is His great reward...and to walk before Him Holy and He would make a covenant with Him.
Therefore to enter into the Covenant what is our part?
Now the question? How many times was Abraham Justified before God?

Why did Christ die...?
Well one scripture tells me that He saved us so that we would live soberly and righteously in this present world...

Or that He came to destroy the works of the Devil...

Therefore if Death could not hold Him...
Being in Him death cannot hold us...

Death is seperation from Life..
But it's as we walk by the the Spirit we have fellowship with one another and His blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness...according to scripture

Therefore He did not die so we did not have to..He died so we would join Him by taking up our cross...

Scriptures on Salvation as I grew to understand were not mainly about what happens after we physically die but however, about entering into a covenant relationship where God is by our side as our friend....Jesus said something like this to His disciples...You are my friends indeed if you do what I say...

So as Late Willard said along these lines, Salvation is what you do with Jesus as you live now.

And I'd like to say it's God in our corner.
So my question: can salvation be a reward?

Think for a second...what is said to Abraham..
I Am thy great reward walk before me holy... etc

To me it's like saying I am the beginning and the end...It's what you do with me in the middle that establishes your "life" true purpose, and abundant living.

 

[corinth77777]

So can you loose your deliverer

Well look at Noah's ark(the salvation)...the people were caught off guard...the flood came and they were no where near the ark(salvation..what could deliver them) to get in.

The ark itself could have delivered (saved) them.
But why didn't it? They new about it but were living their lives the way they wanted to.

So no they did not loose their salvation (what could have delivered them) but they failed to get in it, (so it did not save them)

Along the same lines...can one also receive the Holy Spirit and fail to do what it says?

Is it going to force you to obey? Or do you have to make a choice to obey?

Ask king Saul

Interesting enough there were 2 that I read were taken and seemed not to see death..enoch and Elijah...and it was said they walked with God.

So can a person be in the light and fail to walk in it?

Now unlike the other person that brought up the Hebrew passage....I personally believe the author is specific...because much of that book is about why the Jesus is built on better promises compared to the law.

So the falling away That I see in a couple of passages ...is from the faith itself...

Another words the Faith is Jesus...

You either trusting who He is and place faith in Him. Or you trusting something else.

And going back under the law by combination of the two was not the way....

And that too me was the falling away from the faith(Jesus as Means of How God Justifies)

For if they lost Jesus in their equation..how would they be forgiven again if they sin? Not through the keeping of the Law....

So this is why one cannot be brought back to repentance because they would count on the law..not being established in the knowledge that Jesus is the fullfillment of the law.

So what does it mean if you go on to sin after receiving knowledge of the truth..To me the only way to go on to sin is if..you do not understand It is in Jesus where there we receive the cleansing as we walk by His Spirit. He is the only place we can get back up.

So their is a specific sin in this case...a continual sin where there is no forgiveness
And that's where we do not believe Jesus is the location/ person in whom forgiveness come by.

Another words it's like a whole new Governorship..one condition that governed Israel was law keeping...another words what they had to do.........rather than belief in Jesus who would help them "become"...As is written to Abraham: I am your great reward walk before me holy.

This system would govern all people if they trusted who Jesus was/is .

Too me Jesus did do it all....in the sense He did all that was required to Rule everlastingly.

But the question is will we/I be willing to let Him lead my/our life.

MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE THEY KNOW ME..AND THEY FOLLOW.....AND I GIVE TO THEM ETERNAL LIFE AND NO ONE SHALL EVER PLUNK THEM OUT OF MY HAND OR MY FATHER'S HAND.

Question is how do you remain in the father's love, His son?

If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to My Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, proving yourselves to be My disciples.

 

[corinth77777]

Hi,

I will deal with the verse you seem to think teach OSAS and show they do not remotely teach that idea, but people read OSAS into those verses.

Phil 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Verse 5 goes with verse 6 and verse tells us the source of Paul's confidence. Paul's confidence was NOT based opon OSAS but that those Christians in Phillipi had remained faithful in the gospel from the "first day unto now". Th verb 'confident' is in the perfect tense which denotes an act done in the past with a continuing effect. Hence Paul's confidence is based on past experience of those Philippians faithful steadfastness therefore the good work that started in them in the past would continue forward based upon that maintained faithfulness. Compare this to what Paul said of his converts in Galatia "ye are fallen from grace" Gal, 5:4. Unlike those in Phillipi, those in Galatia did not remain steadfast in the gospel for they allowed false teacher lead them away from the gospel (Galatians 1:6-7; Galatians 5:7). Paul did not express the confidence in Galatia as he did with those in Phillipi but instead said "I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain". Galatians 4:11

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John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand".

Verse 27 goes with verse 28 to complete the thought. Verse 27 is required to tell us who the pronouns "them" and "they" in verse 28 refer. Christ's sheep are the "them" and "they" of verse 28. One CANNOT be a sheep of Christ UNconditionally. To be a sheep of Christ one MUST CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ. The verbs "hear" and "follow" are present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained, incomplete action. So as longas as one continues to hear and follow Christ he will be a sheep of Christ and be of those that shall never perish. But is one does not continue to hear and follow Christ, he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ and will perish. One hears and follow of his own volition and one can stop hearing and following of his own volition.
(Supporters of OSAS do not like the present tense, subjunctive mood. Please see the short article in the following link in how OSAS advocate Charles Stanley struggled and failed to get around the present tense): Can a Christian Ever Be Lost?

======================================

Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption".
It is those and only those who are in the group Christian that are sealed as those in the congregation at Ephesus. There is NO SUCH THING as an individual separate and apart from this group who is unconditionally sealed. Therefore as long as one becomes a member of the sealed group called Christian and remains in this group he will remain sealed. Yet if one becomes unfaithful and falls away from this group Christian he will no be sealed yet the group remains sealed. Some 25 years later we read this about those Ephesians who were sealed in Revlation 2:1-5: "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

Those in Ephesus did not remain faithful as those in Phillip (Philippians 1:5). If those in Ephesus did not repent then God would remove their candlestick-church (Revelation 1:20) and they would no longer be of the sealed group Christian.

====================================================


John 6:37 " All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

The ones God gives to Christ are those who have a present tense coming to Jesus and believing on Jesus. "I will in no way cast out" means Jesus will not turn away any believer that God gives Him regardless of age, sex, race, nationality, social status, etc. It does NOT refer to OSAS for those that quit believing may not have everlasting life per John 6:40. Even OSAS supporter Albert Barnes said of the phrase "I will in no wise cast out":
"Cast out - Reject, or refuse to save. This expression does not refer to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, but to the fact that Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to him". (my emp)

=========================================

Prodigal son:
Luke 15:32 "It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was ,dead, and is alive again; and was lost and is found."

The words "dead" and "alive" refer to the spiritual state of the prodigal. When he was with his father he was spiritually alive. Then upon becoming separated from his father he spiritually died (Isaiah 59:2). Upon returning to the father he became alive AGAIN. The word 'again' implies he was once alive, died and is now alive AGAIN. So one can go from being saved to being lost. When the prodigal left his father he went to live in sin with harlots, wasting his substance with riotous living. He sinned against heaven (Luke 15:18) transgressing the fathers commandments (Luke 15:29). No one can commit such sinful works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) and still inherit the kingdom of God anyway. If one can live like the devil and still be saved, then you can easily see why OSAS is called cheap grace by some.

We will all have the same physical father all our lives and that will not change no matter if one is saved or lost. But spiritually one's father can change. Before becoming a Christian one is lost and a child of the devil (Ephesians 2:2-3). But upon becoming a Christian one's father changes from the devil to God. Under the OT God was the Father of Israel and they were His children. But upon their rejection of Christ, God rejected them (Romans 11:20-23) and the devil became the father of those Jews, (John 8:44)

Some good stuff...but I do not see an unsealing....
In that passage nor know for sure what its talking about...
But it does not say that one can be unsealed..
One is sealed until the day of redemption..
Rather They choose to follow the spirit is the question in my mind..

What is the candle stick that is removed...maybe you can share where it says the candle stick is the Holy Spirit...maybe that will help..

 

[rwe2156]

SALVATIONIONAL promises I do believe are conditions...

Please explain this in the context of conditional salvation.

Why did Christ die...?
Well one scripture tells me that He saved us so that we would live soberly and righteously in this present world...

Or that He came to destroy the works of the Devil...

What did Christ die for? Christ's death was the ultimate atonement for sin. The Lamb of God was sacrificed for sinful man's inability to live a sinless life.

Who did Christ die for? As Adam's sin was imputed to all men, through the cross, Christ's righteousness was imputed to us who are saved. We are now shielded from the wrath of God in judgment.

Therefore He did not die so we did not have to..He died so we would join Him by taking up our cross...So as Late Willard said along these lines, Salvation is what you do with Jesus as you live now.

Understanding what justification and sanctification are destroys a works salvation as well as the false idea of sinlessness.

What you're talking about is the Christian life post regeneration. Justification is a one time event at the moment of regeneration. Sanctification is an ongoing process that evolves and every person's is different because God can chose some for certain works, and some for certain gifts.

So it is not the cross is that propels us so live a faithful life - it is the work of the Holy Spirit, which dwells in at the moment of regeneration.

Scriptures on Salvation as I grew to understand were not mainly about what happens after we physically die but however, about entering into a covenant relationship where God is by our side as our friend....Jesus said something like this to His disciples...You are my friends indeed if you do what I say...

Amen to the first part, careful with the second. You will know them by their fruits, but we all know they can be false, just like there are false teachers.

In the end, we are not judged by our works, but by who is standing in our place to be judged for sin.

 

[corinth77777]

"rwe2156, post: 76677428, member: 183406"]Please explain this in the context of conditional salvation.

Hi, these are my thoughts...I'm no expert and have not been to school....
What I mean is that the promises are in Christ......can I prove that? ILL HAVE TO GO TO PSALMS LATER....


What did Christ die for? Christ's death was the ultimate atonement for sin. The Lamb of God was sacrificed for sinful man's inability to live a sinless life.
I can agree... but we may differ in our views here......

So let me share how I see it...
As a Jew why did they need to keep the law...
My answer, was is not so they could be in the presence of God?

If I am correct in my understanding let's move to the new Cov....I like to say it's like a new system of governance.

For the first system was for the Jews only
It govern their lives in accords to how to relate to God.

But the second system was not just for the Jews but the Gentiles too[ those who would be called into God's purposes]

The second system of better promises than the first.

What was different
The first made man the responsible party to keep the law in order to be Justified before God.
Yet man could not do this because...they were weak in the flesh.

However the second system of governance
Did not rely on man as the source of being justified but Jesus became the source.

Now He became what? The "SOURCE" of salvation for all who would believe.

Another words He is the Way....the path..
No one can come to the Father but through Him....

Now why do we want to Come to the father?
Because He is Life, He justifies so we can be around Him....

So what did Jesus do...Because He was Godman...He bridges the gap and becomes the intermediateter (high priest) one who lives forever...seeing that death could not hold Him, to Interceed on our behalf for anyone that comes to Him.

While on the cross He died for the sins of the world.....yet there is something about His blood...that is diff....talk about that later

And one has to asked how and when does it cleanse one who has put their trust in Jesus yet has fallen away into sin?

The Gospel then is not merely about His death.....but His resurrection....

Salvation is secure in the one who secured it
So it's not perserverence of the saints..
But the Perserverence of Christ who lives forever to interceed for those who come
to Him. God remains faithful...for In my opinion He is predicated off His own word(being)

Recall the passage in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the Word was God....and the word became flesh.

Therefore, because He lives, by grace we have the ability to get back up to walk forward, to be in a place to be Justified to be in God's presence.

So Jesus is the secure path (way, light)to be in God's presence.

But not without Him...For without Him you can do no thing....you must remain on the path, in Him.

Who did Christ die for? As Adam's sin was imputed to all men, through the cross, Christ's righteousness was imputed to us who are saved. We are now shielded from the wrath of God in judgment.
In Christ...as it is written


Understanding what justification and sanctification are destroys a works salvation as well as the false idea of sinlessness.


What you're talking about is the Christian life post regeneration. Justification is a one time event
According to what Passage?

Abraham was Justified more than once...and it was not directly speaking at heaven when He died, but things concerning his life while He was on earth.
at the moment of regeneration. Sanctification is an ongoing process that evolves and every person's is different because God can chose some for certain works, and some for certain gifts.
That may be true ...However you cannot remain Justified outside of Christ[the way,source] another words if you sin....what would be included in your way of thinking is you do not need to repent to come back into fellowship where salvation is.....

But the fact is, repentance is necessary and to be Justified again is too.....To say you can be justified while living in sin....is interesting


So it is not the cross is that propels us so live a faithful life - it is the work of the Holy Spirit, which dwells in at the moment of regeneration.
You still have a choice rather you will follow the Spirit's leading....remember the passage: if by the Spirit you put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live.


Amen to the first part, careful with the second. You will know them by their fruits, but we all know they can be false, just like there are false teachers.

In the end, we are not judged by our works, but by who is standing in our place to be judged for sin.are you sure about that?...for I read that every man will be judged for the deed done in the body

@rwe2156

 

[corinth77777]

In my opinionation
The doctrine of OSAS

Jumps ahead of the process

How and why does it do this?

This might take a little while to explain...but I hope with God's help I can get it across.

I asked my mom...who is Strait out of Baptist
What is the Gosple..?

She said the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

Then told Her to turn to Mark chapter 1...

And read it...

One thing you will see is that Jesus was preaching the Gospel of the kingdom...

The kingdom is at hand....

I'm going to give a quick significance of this..
Overhead pursue..

The key is something is coming into play ...
A continuance...

The kingdom at hand in short....was to tell everyone to trust the King...It was available to all who would accept Jesus as who God proclaimed Him to be.

This is to me a message that is missing from the Gospel..meaning it completes what my mom said.

How you asked because....we some how have skipped over to the process as the foundation....Rather first seeing not that Jesus died for sins and resurrected..

But that Jesus is who God said He is...He is the one the prophets before hand spoke about.......The major key is if you get this first ......you will trust Him for who He is.....rather as my mom said seeing Him as one who paid for your sins so she could have heaven when she dies. For, if I continue to explain you would have to come to understand...that the process of forgiveness..does not proceed before being made alive...through belief in who God says Jesus is.

And in my thinking....Everything is created by the word....So if you obey God's word by exercising the free gift of faith to believe who Jesus is then you may receive His Spirit.
For God's word is Spirit and Life.(why because "if you by the Spirit put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live."

If it still has not clicked let me see if I can elaborate more

The people in the Gosple wanted Jesus to do miracles to prove himself...but Jesus said they had already refused to believe and it was His father who would give Him those who believed his testimony concerning His son. (These are in my words)

So major issues in how in our generation the Gospel has been presented. And because of this, people's truth comes out of an Incomplete version of the gosple.

So as you seen above it is necessary to first believe who God through His prophets prophesied His son to be.....for then you will see that forgiveness of sin is by God and the location is through Jesus.

Yet we have taken the cart before the horse
For we received the process as the foundational means of salvation[deliverence]rather than accepting who God says Jesus is, as the foundation of salvation.

Which actually will lead many to see salvation from a location they or many are yet to be at...which makes their words void of real life in full...meaning. Their words are empty...because their foundation is the process that is found in Christ.
But the Foundation is not the death, burial and resurrection of Christ...even that is Highly important; The foundation is not what He did....The foundation is Himself..

One must believe that He is king, teacher, ruler, the son of God...etc

Because if you believe He is son of God then you will trust Him as such and find forgiveness of sin is as you walk in Him, the path of righteousness.

Instead of seeing it as Jesus did it all so we do nothing...

 

[corinth77777]

In my opinionation
The doctrine of OSAS

Jumps ahead of the process

How and why does it do this?

This might take a little while to explain...but I hope with God's help I can get it across.

I asked my mom...who is Strait out of Baptist
What is the Gosple..?

She said the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

Then told Her to turn to Mark chapter 1...

And read it...

One thing you will see is that Jesus was preaching the Gospel of the kingdom...

The kingdom is at hand....

I'm going to give a quick significance of this..
Overhead pursue..

The key is something is coming into play ...
A continuance...

The kingdom at hand in short....was to tell everyone to trust the King...It was available to all who would accept Jesus as who God proclaimed Him to be.

This is to me a message that is missing from the Gospel..meaning it completes what my mom said.

How you asked because....we some how have skipped over to the process as the foundation....Rather first seeing not that Jesus died for sins and resurrected..

But that Jesus is who God said He is...He is the one the prophets before hand spoke about.......The major key is if you get this first ......you will trust Him for who He is.....rather as my mom said seeing Him as one who paid for your sins so she could have heaven when she dies. For, if I continue to explain you would have to come to understand...that the process of forgiveness..does not proceed before being made alive...through belief in who God says Jesus is.

And in my thinking....Everything is created by the word....So if you obey God's word by exercising the free gift of faith to believe who Jesus is then you may receive His Spirit.
For God's word is Spirit and Life.(why because "if you by the Spirit put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live."

If it still has not clicked let me see if I can elaborate more

The people in the Gosple wanted Jesus to do miracles to prove himself...but Jesus said they had already refused to believe and it was His father who would give Him those who believed his testimony concerning His son. (These are in my words)

So major issues in how in our generation the Gospel has been presented. And because of this, people's truth comes out of an Incomplete version of the gosple.

So as you seen above it is necessary to first believe who God through His prophets prophesied His son to be.....for then you will see that forgiveness of sin is by God and the location is through Jesus.

Yet we have taken the cart before the horse
For we received the process as the foundational means of salvation[deliverence]rather than accepting who God says Jesus is, as the foundation of salvation.

Which actually will lead many to see salvation from a location they or many are yet to be at...which makes their words void of real life in full...meaning. Their words are empty...because their foundation is the process that is found in Christ.
But the Foundation is not the death, burial and resurrection of Christ...even that is Highly important; The foundation is not what He did....The foundation is Himself..

One must believe that He is king, teacher, ruler, the son of God...etc

Because if you believe He is son of God then you will trust Him as such and find forgiveness of sin is as you walk in Him, the path of righteousness.

Instead of seeing it as Jesus did it all so we do nothing...

Hopefully I'll learn better how to explain through practice..

One thing I recognize is the way that I was evangelized

Allowed me to boast because now I am saying in my mind: Is everyone that does not believe like me is going to hell..
Because if they dont believe like me that Jesus did it all then they must be working for their salvation...It put me as judge...I never realized I was the Pharisee the Bible was speaking of....

It wasn't about what I had to believe in that way.....But who I needed to trust...

See there is no boasting in Christ
But there is boasting in something you think
You must believe to be true..

It was not about something I believed to be true about what Jesus did....to secure my salvation because I was evangelized that way....

It was someone I needed to trust in where my sins could be forgiven....

I pray this helps someone...

And I can't say everything that I don't mean by this...
Another words there are many that may have been evangelized like me but still came to trust Who God said His son was......