Is Once Saved Always Saved Biblical?

[Butterball1]

I have heard both sides of this discussion and would like to hear others opinions on this subject. I agree with both sides of the argument but I kind of lean towards the side that's says that you can lose salvation. Here's why: Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26. However, I feel like these verses line up with OSAS: Philippians 1:6, John 10:28, and Ephesians 4:30. I could also see why OSAS is biblical because of John 6:37 and the story of the prodigal son. Can someone give their opinion on whether or not OSAS is true? Thanks in advance!

Hi,

I will deal with the verse you seem to think teach OSAS and show they do not remotely teach that idea, but people read OSAS into those verses.

Phil 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Verse 5 goes with verse 6 and verse tells us the source of Paul's confidence. Paul's confidence was NOT based opon OSAS but that those Christians in Phillipi had remained faithful in the gospel from the "first day unto now". Th verb 'confident' is in the perfect tense which denotes an act done in the past with a continuing effect. Hence Paul's confidence is based on past experience of those Philippians faithful steadfastness therefore the good work that started in them in the past would continue forward based upon that maintained faithfulness. Compare this to what Paul said of his converts in Galatia "ye are fallen from grace" Gal, 5:4. Unlike those in Phillipi, those in Galatia did not remain steadfast in the gospel for they allowed false teacher lead them away from the gospel (Galatians 1:6-7; Galatians 5:7). Paul did not express the confidence in Galatia as he did with those in Phillipi but instead said "I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain". Galatians 4:11

========================================

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand".

Verse 27 goes with verse 28 to complete the thought. Verse 27 is required to tell us who the pronouns "them" and "they" in verse 28 refer. Christ's sheep are the "them" and "they" of verse 28. One CANNOT be a sheep of Christ UNconditionally. To be a sheep of Christ one MUST CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ. The verbs "hear" and "follow" are present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained, incomplete action. So as longas as one continues to hear and follow Christ he will be a sheep of Christ and be of those that shall never perish. But is one does not continue to hear and follow Christ, he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ and will perish. One hears and follow of his own volition and one can stop hearing and following of his own volition.
(Supporters of OSAS do not like the present tense, subjunctive mood. Please see the short article in the following link in how OSAS advocate Charles Stanley struggled and failed to get around the present tense): Can a Christian Ever Be Lost?

======================================

Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption".
It is those and only those who are in the group Christian that are sealed as those in the congregation at Ephesus. There is NO SUCH THING as an individual separate and apart from this group who is unconditionally sealed. Therefore as long as one becomes a member of the sealed group called Christian and remains in this group he will remain sealed. Yet if one becomes unfaithful and falls away from this group Christian he will no be sealed yet the group remains sealed. Some 25 years later we read this about those Ephesians who were sealed in Revlation 2:1-5: "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

Those in Ephesus did not remain faithful as those in Phillip (Philippians 1:5). If those in Ephesus did not repent then God would remove their candlestick-church (Revelation 1:20) and they would no longer be of the sealed group Christian.

====================================================


John 6:37 " All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

The ones God gives to Christ are those who have a present tense coming to Jesus and believing on Jesus. "I will in no way cast out" means Jesus will not turn away any believer that God gives Him regardless of age, sex, race, nationality, social status, etc. It does NOT refer to OSAS for those that quit believing may not have everlasting life per John 6:40. Even OSAS supporter Albert Barnes said of the phrase "I will in no wise cast out":
"Cast out - Reject, or refuse to save. This expression does not refer to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, but to the fact that Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to him". (my emp)

=========================================

Prodigal son:
Luke 15:32 "It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was ,dead, and is alive again; and was lost and is found."

The words "dead" and "alive" refer to the spiritual state of the prodigal. When he was with his father he was spiritually alive. Then upon becoming separated from his father he spiritually died (Isaiah 59:2). Upon returning to the father he became alive AGAIN. The word 'again' implies he was once alive, died and is now alive AGAIN. So one can go from being saved to being lost. When the prodigal left his father he went to live in sin with harlots, wasting his substance with riotous living. He sinned against heaven (Luke 15:18) transgressing the fathers commandments (Luke 15:29). No one can commit such sinful works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) and still inherit the kingdom of God anyway. If one can live like the devil and still be saved, then you can easily see why OSAS is called cheap grace by some.

We will all have the same physical father all our lives and that will not change no matter if one is saved or lost. But spiritually one's father can change. Before becoming a Christian one is lost and a child of the devil (Ephesians 2:2-3). But upon becoming a Christian one's father changes from the devil to God. Under the OT God was the Father of Israel and they were His children. But upon their rejection of Christ, God rejected them (Romans 11:20-23) and the devil became the father of those Jews, (John 8:44)

 

[Kenny'sID]

Self righteousness is just another form of evil.

Then those who insist upon being obediant to God, are now evil?

 

[lismore]

Then those who insist upon being obediant to God, are now evil?

Not at all. Obedience is wonderful, Jesus said 'Not my will but yours be done'.

Self-righteousness is different from obedience. The obedient heart trusts in God and is grateful for God's grace, the self-righteous heart trusts in their own works and looks down on others.

As the bible says: To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I acquire.’But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18).

 

[Kenny'sID]

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

Where do you get the idea any of us are confidant in our own righteousness?

I honestly think you have zero reason to make that accusation, so, again, show me.

The obedient heart trusts in God and is grateful for God's grace, the self-righteous heart trusts in their own works and looks down on others.

Will you please show me who is looking down on others, and what they said to give you that idea?

Or are you just hoping to get away with making those claims, while in reality they hold no water at all because no one gave you reason to make them?

 

[flowergirl67]

Hi,

I will deal with the verse you seem to think teach OSAS and show they do not remotely teach that idea, but people read OSAS into those verses.

Phil 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Verse 5 goes with verse 6 and verse tells us the source of Paul's confidence. Paul's confidence was NOT based opon OSAS but that those Christians in Phillipi had remained faithful in the gospel from the "first day unto now". Th verb 'confident' is in the perfect tense which denotes an act done in the past with a continuing effect. Hence Paul's confidence is based on past experience of those Philippians faithful steadfastness therefore the good work that started in them in the past would continue forward based upon that maintained faithfulness. Compare this to what Paul said of his converts in Galatia "ye are fallen from grace" Gal, 5:4. Unlike those in Phillipi, those in Galatia did not remain steadfast in the gospel for they allowed false teacher lead them away from the gospel (Galatians 1:6-7; Galatians 5:7). Paul did not express the confidence in Galatia as he did with those in Phillipi but instead said "I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain". Galatians 4:11

========================================

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand".

Verse 27 goes with verse 28 to complete the thought. Verse 27 is required to tell us who the pronouns "them" and "they" in verse 28 refer. Christ's sheep are the "them" and "they" of verse 28. One CANNOT be a sheep of Christ UNconditionally. To be a sheep of Christ one MUST CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ. The verbs "hear" and "follow" are present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained, incomplete action. So as longas as one continues to hear and follow Christ he will be a sheep of Christ and be of those that shall never perish. But is one does not continue to hear and follow Christ, he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ and will perish. One hears and follow of his own volition and one can stop hearing and following of his own volition.
(Supporters of OSAS do not like the present tense, subjunctive mood. Please see the short article in the following link in how OSAS advocate Charles Stanley struggled and failed to get around the present tense): Can a Christian Ever Be Lost?

======================================

Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption".
It is those and only those who are in the group Christian that are sealed as those in the congregation at Ephesus. There is NO SUCH THING as an individual separate and apart from this group who is unconditionally sealed. Therefore as long as one becomes a member of the sealed group called Christian and remains in this group he will remain sealed. Yet if one becomes unfaithful and falls away from this group Christian he will no be sealed yet the group remains sealed. Some 25 years later we read this about those Ephesians who were sealed in Revlation 2:1-5: "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

Those in Ephesus did not remain faithful as those in Phillip (Philippians 1:5). If those in Ephesus did not repent then God would remove their candlestick-church (Revelation 1:20) and they would no longer be of the sealed group Christian.

====================================================


John 6:37 " All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

The ones God gives to Christ are those who have a present tense coming to Jesus and believing on Jesus. "I will in no way cast out" means Jesus will not turn away any believer that God gives Him regardless of age, sex, race, nationality, social status, etc. It does NOT refer to OSAS for those that quit believing may not have everlasting life per John 6:40. Even OSAS supporter Albert Barnes said of the phrase "I will in no wise cast out":
"Cast out - Reject, or refuse to save. This expression does not refer to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, but to the fact that Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to him". (my emp)

=========================================

Prodigal son:
Luke 15:32 "It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was ,dead, and is alive again; and was lost and is found."

The words "dead" and "alive" refer to the spiritual state of the prodigal. When he was with his father he was spiritually alive. Then upon becoming separated from his father he spiritually died (Isaiah 59:2). Upon returning to the father he became alive AGAIN. The word 'again' implies he was once alive, died and is now alive AGAIN. So one can go from being saved to being lost. When the prodigal left his father he went to live in sin with harlots, wasting his substance with riotous living. He sinned against heaven (Luke 15:18) transgressing the fathers commandments (Luke 15:29). No one can commit such sinful works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) and still inherit the kingdom of God anyway. If one can live like the devil and still be saved, then you can easily see why OSAS is called cheap grace by some.

We will all have the same physical father all our lives and that will not change no matter if one is saved or lost. But spiritually one's father can change. Before becoming a Christian one is lost and a child of the devil (Ephesians 2:2-3). But upon becoming a Christian one's father changes from the devil to God. Under the OT God was the Father of Israel and they were His children. But upon their rejection of Christ, God rejected them (Romans 11:20-23) and the devil became the father of those Jews, (John 8:44)

I've never heard someone teach it like this before. Thank you, it makes alot more sense now!

 

[lismore]

Where do you get the idea any of us are confidant in our own righteousness?

I honestly think you have zero reason to make that accusation, so, again, show me.



Will you please show me who is looking down on others, and what they said to give you that idea?

Or are you just hoping to get away with making those claims, while in reality they hold no water at all because no one gave you reason to make them?

Hello Kenny! The passage quoted in Luke 18 was Jesus saying that self-righteous people can be confident in their own righteousness and look down on others, compared to the man who knows he is sinful and seeks forgiveness. Nowhere did I say that you personally were self-righteous.

Doubtless the self-righteous man in the parable thought the other wasn't saved, or had lost his salvation, whereas it was the publican who was justified before God. 'Oh Lord have mercy on me a sinner!'

The self-righteous man is living a charade because before a Holy God no-one is righteous in themselves, only by the grace and mercy of the Lord can we be saved.

God Bless You

 

[Kenny'sID]

Nowhere did I say that you personally were self-righteous.

Please don't change my question. Again who here were you referring to and what exactly did they say?

 

[lismore]

Please don't change my question. Again who here were you referring to and what exactly did they say?

Hello Kenny. I was referring to the man in the parable, he said: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ God Bless

 

[bling]

Because saving everyone would be a violation of our free will, of that which is necessary for us to glorify God. We have to be able to choose or to reject God in order to honor Him, and that people decide against God is a logical consequence of this freedom.

God's plan was to create beings that glorify Him, and that some reject Him (= get lost) is inevitable in this plan.

OK

 

[bling]

No he/she looses the freewill to renounce Jesus.

If the Christian cannot renounce Jesus, would that not take away from his witness of proclaiming Jesus as his Lord if he cannot do otherwise?

 

[bling]

Only Jesus was able to defeat Satan. If you refer to Jude 1:9 regarding the angel, read it again: they disputed only, Michael didn't "defeat" Satan.

I'm not sure what God's commandments have to do with our free will or the elect?

I was not referring to Micheal disbuting with satan, but all power comes from God, even satan's power.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If the Christian cannot renounce Jesus, would that not take away from his witness of proclaiming Jesus as his Lord if he cannot do otherwise?

Not at all - the opposite is true.

 

[bling]

Not at all - the opposite is true.

If Deity is putting words in the mouth of those praising Jesus and they are not the words the believer has personally decided to use, what value is the praise?

 

[Albion]

If Deity is putting words in the mouth of those praising Jesus and they are not the words the believer has personally decided to use, what value is the praise?

Has anyone said that Deity will put words into the mouths of believers? That's not predestination as I understand the concept. Permitting or making belief and trust possible, yes, but not robotic behavior.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If Deity is putting words in the mouth of those praising Jesus and they are not the words the believer has personally decided to use, what value is the praise?

That is not what is happening.

 

[bling]

Has anyone said that Deity will put words into the mouths of believers? That's not predestination as I understand the concept. Permitting or making belief and trust possible, yes, but not robotic behavior.

If the person is really making a free will choice with likely alternatives to Love, praise, glorify God, does the praise have more value, then praise given by a person who has no alternative, but to praise?

 

[bling]

That is not what is happening.

There is some difference between the person's free will Love/praise/glorification with likely alternatives (selfish self gratification) and someone who cannot as a likely alternative do stuff for selfish self gratification). I feel I would appreaciate Love from someone making a choice over someone who is kept from making a choice, but how do you understand it?

 

[Albion]

If the person is really making a free will choice with likely alternatives to Love, praise, glorify God, does the praise have more value, then praise given by a person who has no alternative, but to praise?

I'd say that unless the praising springs from a genuine Faith, it isn't worth much. On the other hand, HOW one GETS the Faith (election vs freewill) really wouldn't matter when it comes to the "value."

 

[bling]

I'd say that unless the praising springs from a genuine Faith, it isn't worth much. On the other hand, HOW one GETS the Faith (election vs freewill) really wouldn't matter when it comes to the "value."

Those that make an autonomous free will choice to humbly accept God pure charity as charity are the elect, and can thus go on to become faithful servants of God, bring glory, praise and honor to God. If there is no free will choice with true alternatives and thus the elect person themselves is no different then the nonelect reprobate then it is a reprobate made to praise God, solely by God's actions.

 

[Albion]

Those that make an autonomous free will choice to humbly accept God pure charity as charity are the elect, and can thus go on to become faithful servants of God, bring glory, praise and honor to God.

Well, that is the question we debate endlessly, isn't it?

If there is no free will choice with true alternatives and thus the elect person themselves is no different then the nonelect reprobate then it is a reprobate made to praise God, solely by God's actions.

If you believe in double predestination, I suppose that's so. But only then. But I also think that "praising" God, which has been an idea expressed in each of your last four posts here isn't what this is all about.