Is Obedience to God Necessary?

[Bible Highlighter]

Agreed. That is why we should not put our faith in our performance, but rather put our faith in Jesus as our only hope of salvation.

You fail to understand that doing what Jesus says is having faith in Him.

We learn in Matthew 25:21, that Jesus says,
His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”

To be faithful to the Lord means you have faith in Him and not your own performance.

John 12:48 basically says if we do not receive the words of Jesus, those words will judge us on the last day.

Jesus says in Matthew 7:26-27 that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

In Luke 6:46, Jesus says why do you call me Lord Lord, and do not what I say?

In fact, why did Peter later fail to walk on the water when seen the wind or the storm was violent in Matthew 14? Jesus said it was a lack of faith that Peter had. So Peter failed to later perform in continuing to walk on the water on account of his lack of faith.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Does the bible say how much we need to love God in order to get to heaven, or do we simply use a little common sense and assume we should love him as much as we can? Or put no limit on it?

Common sense tells me to do works whenever we can.

The bible doesn't put a number on it, but if you want to try doing as little as you can and still expect to get to heaven, that gamble is up to you. I can see it now, "But , God, the Holy Spirit didn't tell me to do any more works than I did, it's all his fault I didn't do enough.."

"21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’" Matthew 7:21-22

But remember, when we choose to do no more works, we choose to let our faith die, and for myself, I choose to endure till the end, meaning to keep the faith at all times and constantly do as God requires of me.

If someone chooses to do good works to get to heaven, they're on the wrong course.

 

[Kenny'sID]

"21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’" Matthew 7:21-22

If someone chooses to do good works to get to heaven, they're on the wrong course.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Don't you know by now that our works prove our faith, as in faith without works is dead.

How quickly they forget.

 

[EpicScore]

Do you believe that a Christian is still saved if they abide in the sin of lusting after a woman, or lying, or stealing, etc? If so, then this is teaching that one can treat God's grace as a license for immorality and a person can do all kinds of unimaginable evils thinking they are saved by having a belief alone in Jesus.

No. Someone with such an unrepentant heart and a flippant attitude towards sin is probably not a true believer to begin with. A profession of faith is not necessarily an indication of a possession of faith.

I remember reading an article from Ligonier ministries (?) about the "Faith without works is dead" passage from James 2:17, that basically says that if a person claims to have faith in God, but their life fails to produce any work, then it is an indicator that faith is not in that person. It also says that the remedy to this is to "have faith", and not "do works". Again, a genuine faith should "naturally" lead to obedience, but not all acts of obedience is done out of faith.

Now I think the term "faith" itself has been far too often cheapened to mean "an acknowledgement of facts"; but in the Bible, faith is defined as a position of trust and submission towards God, knowing that He is good, and that His ways are good. Willful disobedience is an indication of a lack of faith, because it shows that you trust your own ways to be better than His commands. There is a difference between acknowledging that somone exists and trusting that person enough to, say, lend them a million dollars.

At the same time, I don't think that even the most sincere and devoted Christian will be able to be completely free of their sinful desires and occasional lapses. Even Paul himself admits that "For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate." (Romans 7:15).

A characteristic of the Holy Spirit working in our lives is our changed views and attitude towards God and Sin. To love God is to hate sin. However, because we still live in a body of corruption, and because "the heart is deceitful beyond all cure" (Jeremiah 17:9), we still struggle with our old sinful desires that sees evil as good, and good evil. It is God's grace that gives us the strength to overcome those desires, not our own willpower.

 

[Ceallaigh]

You fail to understand that doing what Jesus says is having faith in Him.

We learn in Matthew 25:21, that Jesus says,
His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”

To be faithful to the Lord means you have faith in Him and not your own performance.

John 12:48 basically says if we do not receive the words of Jesus, those words will judge us on the last day. Jesus says in Matthew 7:26-27 that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. In Luke 6:46, Jesus says why do you call me Lord Lord, and do not what I say?

You're failing to understand what I'm saying. What you said that I put in bold green, is the same thing I said. You're so stuck in a mental groove that people are saying that disobedience is okay, you argue against that, even though that's not what they're saying.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’" Matthew 7:21-22



If someone chooses to do good works to get to heaven, they're on the wrong course.

In Matthew 7:22-23: The point Jesus was making was not that it was bad to do good works as a part of everlasting life, but his point was that if we do good works in His name and we also work iniquity or sin, then we will be told by the Lord Jesus to depart from Him. This is further confirmed in the fact that Jesus’s point was one of obedience and not a belief alone in Him while we justify sin or laziness in Matthew 7:26-27. Jesus basically says everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're failing to understand what I'm saying. What you said that I put in bold green, is the same thing I said. You're so stuck in a mental groove that people are saying that disobedience is okay, you argue against that, even though that's not what they're saying.

Do you believe that doing what Jesus says is being faithful to Him?

Do you believe that doing what Jesus says is having faith in Jesus?

If I had a chair that other people thought would not hold my weight and I said it would, I would prove my belief by my actions.

 

[Ceallaigh]

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Don't you know by now that our works prove our faith, as in faith without works is dead.

How quickly they forget.

Once again, without works means the total absence of works. James credited one thing Rahab the harlot did as justification. Not a whole string of things she did throughout her life, but only one thing. That does not mean that we should not strive to do good throughout our life, but it does mean that James did not say a continuous string of good works is necessary to achieve justification.

 

[Ceallaigh]

In Matthew 7:22-23: The point Jesus was making was not that it was bad to do good works as a part of everlasting life, but his point was that if we do good works in His name and we also work iniquity or sin, then we will be told by the Lord Jesus to depart from Him. This is further confirmed in the fact that Jesus’s point was one of obedience and not a belief alone in Him while we justify sin or laziness in Matthew 7:26-27. Jesus basically says everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

Those who don't believe in works based salvation interpret Matthew 7:26-27 as those who tried to get into heaven by putting on a show of works. Personally I think Jesus is talking about false teachers and prophets who put on a big show. Some use Benny Hinn as an example of the type of people Matthew 7:26-27 is talking about, however I don't know enough about him to make that judgement. And once again, I'm not arguing in favor of disobedience.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Once again, without works means the total absence of works. James credited one thing Rahab the harlot did as justification. Not a whole string of things she did throughout her life, but only one thing. That does not mean that we should not strive to do good throughout our life, but it does mean that James did not say a continuous string of good works is necessary to achieve justification.

Yours is just another way for Easy Salvation to claim we really don't have to worry about works.

Still no answers to my questions, and that tells me all I need to know.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Do you believe that doing what Jesus says is being faithful to Him?

Do you believe that doing what Jesus says is having faith in Jesus?

If I had a chair that other people thought would not hold my weight and I said it would, I would prove my belief by my actions.

Once again, I'm not arguing in favor of disobedience.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Yours is just another way for Easy Salvation to claim we really don't have to worry about works.

Still no answers to my questions, and that tells me all I need to know.

I pointed out what James said and did not say. You created a strawman to knock down, because you don't have a valid argument against that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No. Someone with such an unrepentant heart and a flippant attitude towards sin is probably not a true believer to begin with. A profession of faith is not necessarily an indication of a possession of faith.

I remember reading an article from Ligonier ministries (?) about the "Faith without works is dead" passage from James 2:17, that basically says that if a person claims to have faith in God, but their life fails to produce any work, then it is an indicator that faith is not in that person. It also says that the remedy to this is to "have faith", and not "do works". Again, a genuine faith should "naturally" lead to obedience, but not all acts of obedience is done out of faith.

Now I think the term "faith" itself has been far too often cheapened to mean "an acknowledgement of facts"; but in the Bible, faith is defined as a position of trust and submission towards God, knowing that He is good, and that His ways are good. Willful disobedience is an indication of a lack of faith, because it shows that you trust your own ways to be better than His commands. There is a difference between acknowledging that somone exists and trusting that person enough to, say, lend them a million dollars.

At the same time, I don't think that even the most sincere and devoted Christian will be able to be completely free of their sinful desires and occasional lapses. Even Paul himself admits that "For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate." (Romans 7:15).

A characteristic of the Holy Spirit working in our lives is our changed views and attitude towards God and Sin. To love God is to hate sin. However, because we still live in a body of corruption, and because "the heart is deceitful beyond all cure" (Jeremiah 17:9), we still struggle with our old sinful desires that sees evil as good, and good evil. It is God's grace that gives us the strength to overcome those desires, not our own willpower.

You appear to at first be for holy living at first and then you contradict that idea by throwing down the card that says: “we all will commit some kind of serous sin” by pointing to Romans 7:15.

However, in Romans 7:14-24, Paul is speaking from his experience as a Pharisee who was trying to be saved by keeping the Law of Moses without Jesus. In Romans 7:25, Paul transitions back to his life as a Christian and how things are now different.

Can I prove this with Scripture? Absolutely.

Check out this CF thread here:

Paul was speaking from his life as a Pharisee in Romans 7 and not as a Christian.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Once again, I'm not arguing in favor of disobedience.

So you believe Jesus when He says that a person is in danger of hellfire if they look upon a woman in lust?

 

[Danthemailman]

This is clearly an incorrect interpretation on Philippians 2:12 because the “work out our salvation with fear in trembling” is in context to Philippians 2:13 that says that it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure. So we are to work out our salvation in God working through us.

Philippians 2:12 (AMP) - So then, my dear ones, just as you have always obeyed [my instructions with enthusiasm], not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation [that is, cultivate it, bring it to full effect, actively pursue spiritual maturity] with awe-inspired fear and trembling [using serious caution and critical self-evaluation to avoid anything that might offend God or discredit the name of Christ].

The 'fear and trembling' spoken of in this verse, is a reverential attitude towards God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. In 1 John 4:18 we read that "perfect love casts out fear." The fear that perfect loves casts out is the fear of God’s judgment/condemnation.

Those who are in Christ know the love of God, which drives away fear of condemnation. Unhealthy fear, along with bondage to insecurity which pictures God as a tyrant who can't wait to punish us every time we mess up is no way to live the Christian life.

13 For it is [not your strength, but it is] God who is effectively at work in you, both to will and to work [that is, strengthening, energizing, and creating in you the longing and the ability to fulfill your purpose] for His good pleasure. *Nothing there about "type 2 works salvation."

(See also my post #34 on how Sanctification of the Spirit is for salvation).

You turn sanctification of the Spirit into "type 2 works salvation."

Also why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (See: Matthew 10:28).

Not unhealthy fear, but reverence and respect. We are to fear God, but not fear Him as though He is an unloving tyrant who can't wait to throw His saints into hell.

Why fear God if we there is no penalty from sin?

Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus does not make it sound like we can sin and still be saved by His words in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28, etc; For even the apostle Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble.

So according to your interpretation of these passages of scripture, anything short of being sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time (exactly like Jesus) means that believers will not remain saved? So how do you interpret Philippians 2:12? Work out your salvation by obtaining entire sanctification/sinless perfection in order to remain saved?

In the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax collector in Luke 18:9-14, which one was confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else and which one would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me a sinner!" and went down to his house justified? Always remember this parable when discussing pride and humility.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Philippians 2:12 (AMP) - So then, my dear ones, just as you have always obeyed [my instructions with enthusiasm], not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation [that is, cultivate it, bring it to full effect, actively pursue spiritual maturity] with awe-inspired fear and trembling [using serious caution and critical self-evaluation to avoid anything that might offend God or discredit the name of Christ].

The 'fear and trembling' spoken of in this verse, is a reverential attitude towards God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. In 1 John 4:18 we read that "perfect love casts out fear." The fear that perfect loves casts out is the fear of God’s judgment/condemnation.

Those who are in Christ know the love of God, which drives away fear of condemnation. Unhealthy fear, along with bondage to insecurity which pictures God as a tyrant who can't wait to punish us every time we mess up is no way to live the Christian life.

13 For it is [not your strength, but it is] God who is effectively at work in you, both to will and to work [that is, strengthening, energizing, and creating in you the longing and the ability to fulfill your purpose] for His good pleasure. *Nothing there about "type 2 works salvation."

You turn sanctification of the Spirit into "type 2 works salvation."

Not unhealthy fear, but reverence and respect. We are to fear God, but not fear Him as though He is an unloving tyrant who can't wait to throw His saints into hell.

Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So according to your interpretation of these passages of scripture, anything short of being sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time (exactly like Jesus) means that believers will not remain saved? So how do you interpret Philippians 2:12? Work out your salvation by obtaining entire sanctification/sinless perfection in order to remain saved?

In the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax collector in Luke 18:9-14, which one was confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else and which one would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me a sinner!" and went down to his house justified? Always remember this parable when discussing pride and humility.

Why all the trembling of it is not talking about fear? This to me sounds like a desperate attempt to undo what the text says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Once again, I'm not arguing in favor of disobedience.

Yet, you don’t believe a believer’s salvation is in jeopardy if they look upon a woman in lust and they get hit by a bus and they die before they get a chance to confess of it.

 

[Ceallaigh]

So you believe Jesus when He says that a person is in danger of hellfire if they look upon a woman in lust?

I don't believe that Jesus will condemn a born again disciple of His to hellfire for having a thought. I seriously doubt anyone else but you believes that.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Yet, you don’t believe a believer’s salvation is in jeopardy if they look upon a woman in lust and they get hit by a bus and they die before they get a chance to confess of it.

Who else besides you does?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Those who don't believe in works based salvation interpret Matthew 7:26-27 as those who tried to get into heaven by putting on a show of works. Personally I think Jesus is talking about false teachers and prophets who put on a big show. Some use Benny Hinn as an example of the type of people Matthew 7:26-27 is talking about, however I don't know enough about him to make that judgement. And once again, I'm not arguing in favor of disobedience.

Read Ezekiel 3:20. It says God will not remember any righteousness a person does if they commit iniquity. Seeing God associates with those who do righteousness (1 John 3:10), this means anyone who goes back to sin, it will be as if Jesus had never knew them because there is no more righteous deeds to remember for that person anymore.