• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Is Obedience to God Necessary?

Discussion in 'Daily Devotionals' started by Christsfreeservant, Mar 8, 2021.

  1. Christsfreeservant

    Christsfreeservant Senior Veteran Supporter

    +2,331
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I saw this quote on Facebook today:

    “Our obedience to God is not going to get us to heaven. It’s the fruit we live out because we are headed to heaven. Paul calls it ‘spiritual worship’ in Romans 12:1. It’s the service we know we should do, but we sometimes need a reminder to do. We don’t work for our salvation, but rather from it.”

    Using Memes to Communicate Messages

    I Googled the name of the stated author of the quote and the first line of the quote, and I could not find a match, so I can’t verify that the person who was quoted said this, but that is not relevant. It doesn’t matter who said it. Anyone could have said it, and many are saying it in many different ways.

    I just got back on Facebook after being off of it for about seven years, and I discovered that most of what is on there, from what I can tell so far, are memes. And a meme is “a unit of cultural information, as a concept, belief, or practice, that spreads from person to person in a way analogous to the transmission of genes” (Source: Collinsdictionary.com).

    In other words, they are not usually the posters’ original thoughts being expressed, but they are usually catchy quotes or humorous pictures or jokes being passed from person to person to person. But what is often taking place is that the posters are adopting these quotes as their own thinking.

    And for followers of Jesus Christ that is dangerous. For, many people are making bold statements about God and the Scriptures. But what many are teaching is not true, or it is partially true, and if intentional, it is a lie. Or else they may twist the Scriptures, which also makes what is said a lie.

    Let’s Break it All Down

    So, let’s look at what was said in this quote, and let’s compare it to what Scripture teaches, and we will see if it adds up or not.

    “Our obedience to God is not going to get us to heaven.”

    Jesus said that if anyone keeps (obeys) his word, he will never see death. He also said that if anyone loves him, he will keep (obey) his word and the Father will love him, and they will come to him and make their home with him. He also said that if we keep (obey) his commandments that we abide in his love, and if anyone does not abide in him, he is thrown into the fire.

    And Paul said that we are slaves of the one we obey – whether we are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness and sanctification, which then results in eternal life with God. And the writer of Hebrews said that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

    And John wrote that we know that we have come to know Jesus/God if we keep (obey) his commandments. If we say that we know him, but we do not make it our practice to keep (obey) his commandments, then we are liars, and the truth is not in us. And he said that if we claim to have fellowship with God but we walk (in conduct, in practice) in the darkness (sin), we are liars who do not practice the truth.

    Now going back to Paul, he wrote that if we make sin our practice, i.e., if we walk according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit, that we will not inherit eternal life with God, but that we will die in our sins. But if by the Spirit we are putting to death the deeds of the body (flesh), and if we are walking according to the Spirit, then we will live.

    So, we are not to be deceived, for we will all reap what we sow (sow to the Spirit, reap eternal life; sow to the flesh, reap destruction, decay, death). For, we will be judged of God by our works. For those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath.

    [Jn 8:51; Jn 14:23-24; Jn 15:1-11; Rom 6:1-23; 1 Pet 1:2; Heb 5:9; 1 Jn 2:3-6; 1 Jn 1:5-9; Gal 5:16-24; Gal 6:7-8; Rom 2:6-8; 1 Co 6:9-10; 2 Co 5:10; Eph 5:3-6; Col 1:21-23; Col 3:5-11; Rom 8:1-17; Heb 3:6, 14-15]

    “It’s the fruit we live out because we are headed to heaven.”

    So, the person who said this is basically saying that our obedience to God has no impact on whether or not we go to heaven, but that our obedience is merely the fruit we live out because we are headed to heaven (guaranteed). So, whether we obey or we don’t obey, we are still headed to heaven.

    So, that has already been debunked by the Scriptures referenced above. But let us look at the subject of our “fruit.” Jesus said this in John 15:1-6:

    “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit…

    “I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.”

    And then there is this part about our “spiritual worship”:

    “Paul calls it ‘spiritual worship’ in Romans 12:1. It’s the service we know we should do, but we sometimes need a reminder to do.”

    So, what is our “spiritual worship”? It is to present our bodies (our lives) to God as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God. It is to give our lives to God as he requires, on his terms, living lives which are separate (unlike, different) from the world because we are being made into Christ’s likeness.

    And it is to do so in a manner as God prescribes and which is pleasing (acceptable) to him. And what is pleasing or displeasing to him?

    “For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God” (Rom 8:6-8).

    So, if our minds are set on the flesh, and if we are making sin our practice, and if we are not obeying the Lord’s commandments, it ends in death, not in life eternal with God. So, this isn’t optional. This spiritual worship, therefore, is not just the service we know we should do and need to be reminded to do. It is required of God. If we do not obey him, we will not see life everlasting.

    “We don’t work for our salvation, but rather from it.”

    Now, I agree with this one, provided it is properly understood in biblical context. We do nothing in our flesh to earn or to deserve our own salvation. We cannot save ourselves, and that includes we cannot make up our own gospel to suit our own lifestyles, either, and then expect heaven guaranteed.

    But works are not absent from our salvation, but they are the works of God which he gives and which he empowers us to do by his Spirit. And if we do not do them, and we go our own way, instead, heaven is not guaranteed us as our eternal destiny, for we will die in our sins. But if we walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh, then we have eternal life with God.

    [Rom 2:6-8; 1 Co 15:58; 2 Co 9:8; Eph 2:10; Phil 2:12-13; Col 1:9-14; 2 Tim 2:21; Tit 2:11-14; Tit 3:8; Jas 2:17; Gal 6:7-8; Rom 8:1-17; Lu 9:23-26; Jn 10:27-30; Jn 6:35-58; 2 Co 5:15; Rom 6:1-23; Eph 4:17-32]

    Only Hope

    By Jonathan Foreman

    I give you my destiny
    I'm giving you all of me
    I want your symphony
    Singing in all that I am
    At the top of my lungs
    I'm giving it my all

    So, I lay my head back down
    And I lift my hands and pray
    To be only yours I pray
    To be only yours I pray
    To be only yours
    I know now you're my only hope


    Caution: This link may contain ads
    Disclaimer: This is not an endorsement of the singers nor of all their music
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. TomCS

    TomCS justified by his blood

    +374
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    That's some very fancy reasoning on your part. So God got Himself a great deal when He got you, huh? You seem very assured of your own great performance in God's sight. Someone like you has no use for God's grace, you're going to pull your own weight into Heaven. Good luck with that, because God demands total perfection, not your sometimes, when you feel like it, efforts. You better be careful, or you will be the one who is on the outside of heaven, looking in.

    All of your scripture references very skillfully omit the grace verses that come immediately proceeding the verses that you site. How about reading Romans chapters three, four, and five - and then preach your heresy about the necessity of works to produce or maintain salvation.

    You know, I took five or six years off from logging onto this site, because of the works-for-salvation people like you who haunt this board continuously. Seriously, the works people never take a day off from preaching their damnable heresies.

    Oh well, maybe I'll try this board again in ten more years; but there will still probably be plenty of Lordship Salvation heretics propagating doctrines of devils.
     
  3. TomCS

    TomCS justified by his blood

    +374
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    PS - You're deliberate misquoting of Paul is absolutely priceless guile on your part.
     
  4. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,156
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    There will be, you can count on that!
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,974
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Again, well said, Sue. Stay the course, sister. So many in these last days want to justify a sin and still be saved type belief. They think that a belief alone in Jesus (without any holiness) will save, but it doesn't. I am not sure how they can ignore Matthew 13:41-42. It says the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM (Christ's kingdom) those who do iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire. Paul says clearly that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. In Galatians 6:8-9, Paul says that the person who sows to the flesh (sin) shall reap corruption, but the person who sows to the Spirit shall reap life everlasting. Paul continues in verse 9 to say that we should not faint (or grow tired) in “well doing” for in due season we will reap. So the sowing to the Spirit that reaps everlasting life (salvation) is “well doing” by the power of the Spirit working in us. Praise God for the Lord for showing us such a truth. Many cannot see what Galatians 6:8-9 says. They cannot see what many of the verses in their Bible say. Many just want an easy path or way (while they ignore scores of Bible verses). But that is not how things work. We have to believe the whole counsel of God's Word.

    Yes, we are saved by God's grace, but God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Paul said that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  6. Christsfreeservant

    Christsfreeservant Senior Veteran Supporter

    +2,331
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Thank you, BH. Well said. Thanks for the encouragement. Glory to God.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  7. Billy93

    Billy93 Member

    136
    +45
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I’m relatively new to the term “Lordship Salvation,” but when I read the NT all the way through for the first time late last year I was struck by just how many verses there are which explicitly command believers to obey Jesus/God. It stood in stark contrast to what I was led to believe growing up (“Just say a quick prayer and you’re definitely saved, even if you just keep living the same way as before”).

    Christ’s salvation to us *is* a gift/grace, in that no amount of good works we could ever do would ever get us into Heaven - but based on what I’ve read/thought, the idea that one is a “believer” and yet has no desire to follow their savior doesn’t really add up. If I truly *believe* something, then it will be evident in my life. Otherwise, it’s just an intellectual acknowledgement, not altogether unlike how even the demons “believe.”

    Now, people can go back and forth all day arguing over whether or not one can “lose” one’s salvation based on these things, but the top question I would ask someone is a simple one: “Why aren’t you even trying to live like Jesus?”

    Because a lot of people who *claim* to be “Christians” aren’t actually even actively struggling against their sins; it’s like they just don’t want to obey the one who died for them. I know this because I myself was like that (and likely wasn’t even a real born-again Christian) for years and years. I thought I basically had a license to sin and that “It’s okay, I’m saved.” Which is a big danger of such a mindset, but also looking back it is SO disrespectful towards God and Jesus. Totally takes Him for granted.

    But at the root of it, I just didn’t want to change. I wanted things to go my way. For years I pushed God into a little corner in the back of my mind and didn’t even think of Him, save for the times when I prayed out of wanting something for myself, or being angry about something. Yet many people would tell you I was a “Christian” just because I said a little prayer (even got baptized!) way back when I was a kid.

    And the thing is, I *thought* I believed. (And perhaps some would argue that I did, and that God simply allowed me to go astray to teach me some lessons until it was His time to bring me back. But that’s a whole other argument to be had.) All I can tell you is aside from the intellectual acknowledgement, I didn’t really feel like much of a Christian, and I certainly didn’t live like one. I think people like me (how I used to be) are going to be among the ones told “I never knew you; depart from me.” But regardless of whether or not “obeying Christ” is a prerequisite for salvation… my question is: “Why wouldn’t you want to obey?” You acknowledge that this man (God!) *died* for you, yet you won’t do what He asks? Seems kind of jerky, to put it lightly...

    P.S. Not sure why you seem to be bitter in your response.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • List
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,974
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Nice to see another agree with the truth of God's Word.
    Truly a blessing to see that God has shown you the truth, Billy.

    I believe we are living in the last days whereby many are indifferent to God's Word.

    Anyways, you may find this Christian movie trailer uplifting.



    The film is coming out sometime this month on DVD at Christianmovies.com.

    If you are interested in my checking out my other top inspiring Christian movies that gets one even more excited about the truths in God's Word or so as to seek to follow the Lord, you can check them out in this thread, here, brother.

    What Christian Movies Do You Find To Be The Most Rewatchable?

    May God bless you greatly today.

    *Big macho man hugs to you in the Lord*
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021
  9. Billy93

    Billy93 Member

    136
    +45
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Hey, thanks a lot! I watched the trailer and it looks good; I will check out your list in the other thread. I too think we are in the last days. In fact, it was that realization that rocked my world and “woke me up” back in last July, after years of living apart from God/not caring about sin. Something or other led to me doing some research on the topic, and I strongly came to feel that we are rapidly approaching the end times - and realized I needed to get serious/“get right with God.” I also was at the same time getting increasingly frustrated with/disgusted with the world: so many double standards, so many lies, so much hypocrisy, so much evil. I wanted nothing to do with it anymore. Plus, I’ve always considered myself a “truth seeker” of sorts, so I’m glad I’ve come around to the ultimate truth.

    Got a new Bible back then and started reading it on a daily basis, and have so far kept up that habit since July/August, along with praying. I had never consistently read my Bible like this in all my years of being a “Christian,” so I hope this newfound enjoyment/hunger for it is a good sign(?).

    So far since then I've read the whole New Testament, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Job, and just finished Genesis last night. I’ve been loving it! If you had told me years ago that I would love reading the Bible and make a habit out of it, I’d have called you crazy. I hope that all this is a sign of the Holy Spirit at work in my life, but I still have doubts and feel bad; in fact if you’re at all curious about my story I wrote a whole post about it, basically me freaking out about my salvation lol.

    Anyways, thanks again! I haven’t seen a Christian movie in forever; wasn’t familiar with Christianmovies.com but I’m looking forward to checking it out! God bless!
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
    • List
  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,637
    Messianic
    Single
    The issue is that there can be reasons for doing good works other than trying to earn our salvation, especially because to reason why God commanded good works was never in order to provide a means of doing that, so verses that speak against that should not be mistaken as speaking against our salvation requiring good works for some other reason, such as faith. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so only those who have faith will obey it and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul could say in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified while also denying in Romans 4:4-5 that we can earn our justification as a wage.

    In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and the Father has made His will known through the Mosaic Law (Psalms 40:8). Furthermore Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so choosing to obey the Mosaic Law through faith is required to enter Heaven, just not required to earn our entrance.

    In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is describe as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to do those things is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation. It notably does not say that we need to do those things before we can become saved or we will do those things after we have been saved, butt that our salvation is being trained by grace to do those things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,974
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Your welcome. I hope you get a chance to check out the Christian films. But keep staying in the Word and praying, brother.

    I read a good portion of your testimony, and read through the thread a little.
    Once Saved Always Saved is the biggest lies of the devil, brother.
    Grievous sin is separation from God.
    One of the first lies of the devil given to Eve was that she could break God's command (sin) and she would not die. Yet, this same lie is being pushed today by many believers.
    Yet, on the other hand, we can have an assurance of our salvation if we find that we are keeping His commands (1 John 2:3).
    Proverbs 28:13 basically says that the person who confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
    If you stumble, repent and get back up and run the race. For where shall we go? Jesus has the words of eternal life (See: John 6:68).
    Hebrews 6:4-6 is dealing with apostasy (i.e. a rejection of Jesus Christ as one's Savior).
    Hebrews 10:26 is saying that if we willfully sin, the sacrifice does not apply to us and we die spiritually. But like the prodigal son in Luke 15, we learn that he came back to his father and sought forgiveness with him. His father said he was “dead” and became “alive AGAIN.”
    James 5:19-20 teaches a similar truth, as well.

    A helpful video to me in my faith that you might like is this one:

     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,974
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    We are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or contract, or package deal, but that does not mean there are no Laws in the New Testament (or New Covenant) that was given to us by Jesus and His followers. The New Covenant (New Testament) officially began with Christ's death upon the cross. We are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. The Law of Moses was given to Israel and not the church.

    Also, after we are saved by God's grace, works of faith must follow as a part of the Sanctification Process in God's plan of salvation. How so? Here is a short list.

    1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

    2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

    3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

    4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

    5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

    6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).

    7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).

    8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

    9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

    10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).

    11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).

    12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).
     
  13. Christsfreeservant

    Christsfreeservant Senior Veteran Supporter

    +2,331
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Well said. Thank you for sharing that. Yes, when we read the Scriptures word by word in context we realize we weren't taught everything right. All of a sudden we see things we didn't see or hear before, and it challenges us to make a decision to believe what we had always been taught or to believe the Scriptures and what they teach.
     
  14. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,637
    Messianic
    Single
    Thinking that our obedience to God's law is about having a good enough performance has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of why it was given. In Matthew 11:28-30 and Jeremiah 6:16-19, the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but if we make our obedience about having a good enough performance, then that would rob our souls of the rest that it was intended to give. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so it is those who say that we don't need to obey it who are acting like they have no need of grace. We can obey the Mosaic Law for reasons other than earning our salvation, especially because that was never the purpose for why God commanded it, so verses that speak against earning our salvation should not be mistaken as speaking against our salvation requiring our obedience to it for some other reason, such as faith.

    Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have already failed to have perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that it is false that God demands total perfection. Even if someone managed to have perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their salvation because it was never given as a means of doing that.
     
  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,637
    Messianic
    Single
    God is sovereign, wise, good, and trustworthy, so He can be trusted to give laws that are for our own good in order to bless us and teach us how to rightly live, so we would still have the delight of getting to walk in God's ways under the obligation of Mosaic Law even if God had never made any covenants with man, though the New Covenant still involves following it (Hebrews 8:10). Jesus spent his ministry teaching how to obey the Mosaic Law both by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he taught, and following what Jesus taught is not just for Jews, but for Gentiles too.

    Again, in Titus 2:14, it does not that we will be trained to do what is godly, righteousness, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly after we have been saved, but describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those things, and the Mosaic Law was how the Israelites were taught how to do those things. It is contradictory for you to speak against obeying the Mosaic Law while also saying that we will do works of faith that are all in accordance with what it was given to teach us how to do.
     
  16. Billy93

    Billy93 Member

    136
    +45
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Thanks so much for the link! I’ve watched almost half so far; finding it very interesting and informative. One question though: I went to that guy’s website (and agreed with much of what I read), and noticed that he believes it is possible to become “perfect” after being born-again- that even while here on Earth it is possible for a Christian to totally stop sinning, and that it should be more a question of “if” a Christian commits a sin rather than “when.” Do you share this view, or no? I struggle with OCD and intrusive thoughts, many of which I don’t believe I even agree with deep-down but nonetheless which would be considered “sinful.” And then if I tell myself to stop thinking x thought, of course that just makes me think it even more. Of course there are some tangible sins I have definitely turned from; I am no longer watching porn, cursing, lying, downloading music illegally, etc. Some of these were even easier to stop than I expected (and I had tried before on my own without much success), which I can only attribute to the Holy Spirit helping out. (I asked Him to help me turn from my sins.)

    But I guess what I’m getting at is, I’m just not sure how it is possible for people to live totally without ever sinning, after being saved(?) Is it possible these people *are* still having sin, but they just don’t recognize it as sin? I mean, all things are possible through God, but doesn’t the NT even say that no one is without sin? (Unless that was referring to unbelievers/pre-saved people only.) Sorry if this is a dumb question.
     
  17. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

    +409
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Firstly, I agree with Bible Highlighter re: "Stay the course" and I know you will, with or without encouragement.

    One comment: It struck me when reading your post that I would not even give agreement to the part of the quote shown above. The works pendulum has been swung so far off center/truth, that these simple "memes" as you noted them, should not even be partially accepted anymore if we are to strive for truth and accuracy to be rid of the nonsense. They are stated in an underlying context that is not correct.

    1. Salvation is God's plan and work. We could never have devised it, nor could we have put it into effect. Nor could we have qualified to take our Lord's place on the cross.

    2. God is working to draw us to Christ by teaching us per John 6. Apart from his drawing and teaching we would not come to Christ - we would not believe in Him - in who He is - and we would not receive the gift of life only He gives.

    So, what have we done so far? Nothing. And what could we do to overcome our fallen condition? Nothing.

    3. Jesus Christ commands unbelievers to "work" to receive the gift He gives that remains for eternal life per John 6. So, we've been commanded by Christ to work to receive the gift of eternal life. No preacher standing on a stage trying to make us feel stupid for thinking we work to receive a gift has any standing against what Christ commands. In context, this "work" commanded by Jesus Christ is to listen to God and learn what He's teaching about His Son and Salvation and to believe what He teaches.

    3a. God commands belief in the name of His Son per 1 John 3. No preacher telling us that obedience is a "work" has any standing against what God commands. The simple fact is that Faith and Obedience to God are so vitally interconnected that there really is no Faith apart obeying God.

    4. When Paul writes in Eph 2 that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works, in context, could we make ourselves alive from the dead, could we make ourselves alive together with Christ, raise ourselves together with Him, seat ourselves with Him in the Heavens, could we make God show us the exceeding riches of His grace in Christ Jesus, could we have devised and implemented God's Plan to do such things!? The answer is, No! And this is why Paul says this is apart from our works. This is all God's plan and God's work. Only He can transition us from death to life and place us into Christ Jesus. Only God can grant us to His Son and into His Salvation plan and process. And only people can negate the fact that Jesus Christ commands unbelievers to work to receive this gift. God does His part that only He can do and God commands us to do what He requires us to do - to listen, learn and believe what He teaches - to obey Him in doing so.

    5. The same Paul in Philippians 2 commands believers to "work to accomplish" our "salvation" with fear and trembling while God is energizing us to both will and do for His good pleasure. Salvation is a process - a process that we are commanded by God to collaboratively work with Him to accomplish. And Paul very clearly writes that we don't work for our salvation, and we do work for our salvation. It's up to us to understand him in context.

    To say "We don't work for our Salvation, but rather from it" is misleading. We do work to receive our salvation: God is working to draw unbelievers to His Son and into His Salvation Plan and process by teaching about His Son and Salvation - Only God can do this > We do whatever work it takes as commanded to listen and learn from God the Father as He is working to draw us to and believe in His Son and into His Salvation Plan and process > God grants us to His Son and makes us alive together with His Son, raises us together with Him, seats us together with Him - only God can do this and He owes us nothing for our work in listening to Him and obeying Him by believing in His Son > We work with God as commanded to accomplish our Salvation.

    We should no longer accept these half truths as they are stated in an underlying context that will condemn the Truth as some misplaced notion of "works salvation." It's man that has swung the pendulum to an extreme. Thankfully the Word of God corrects us.

    The garbage from the group that claims we do not understand or acknowledge God's Grace is profoundly wrong and a horrendous accusation. I understand God's grace in doing what only He can do. I understand His grace in providing what I need to obey Him in doing what He commands me to do. I understand His grace in guiding, leading, energizing and enabling me in the salvation process as He trains me in "godliness" as He forms Christ in me and conforms me into the likeness of His first-born Son - my first-born brother and Lord Jesus Christ.

    The false gospel you consistently speak against is a tragedy widely misleading people from the Truth of Biblical Faith and Salvation. It's proponents have obviously found your posts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
  18. EpicScore

    EpicScore Member

    78
    +55
    Calvinist
    Single
    The quote isn't exactly wrong, per se. In particular, the last point: "We don’t work for our salvation, but rather from it", can also be read as "we don't get saved by obeying the law, but we obey the law because we are already saved." This is pretty much the essence of Christian liberty.

    Jesus declared that "the greatest Commandment of the Law" is to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22?37-38).

    He then says, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching [...] anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching." (John 14:23-24)

    Paul too teaches that "Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10)

    However, due to our fallen nature, our ideas of "love" have been corrupted, and we are unable to properly love God or others. This is why the law is put in place, to serve as a guide to love God and others.

    "God's laws" are part of His "character" (i.e. His righteousness, holiness, lovingkindness, etc.), therefore our "loving Him" should not be separated from our "obeying Him". Unwillingness to obey God's Word and walk in His ways is a sign that His love is not in us, but obedience is not necessarily a sign that we have received His love.

    I think the problem here is that people tend to swing between extremes of Legalism (you must do good works to get saved) and License (since you're already saved, you don't need to do good works). And I know that in some churches, it is assumed that the congregation are all believers, and since they see no need to preach justification to those who are already saved, they preach sanctification instead, which focuses more on following the law and doing good works, etc. This leads to people into believing that obedience and good works are more important than worship.
     
  19. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

    +1,725
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Preaching the necessity of works to either "produce" or "maintain" salvation is indeed heresy. Man is saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

    *Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

    In a different thread on this forum, someone recently made this statement: "Grace is a free gift, but to maintain your grace, one must keep the law (Commandments, Statutes and Judgement)." This amounts to Jesus merely "initially" saving us by grace through faith, then after that, we "maintain" our salvation based on the merits of our performance/law keeping/works etc.. That is "type 2 works salvation."

     
  20. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

    +409
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Worship in what respect?

    In John 4 where Jesus repeats/emphasizes "worship" several times in a few verses, the word actually means to bow in obeisance, which denotes respect and submission to authority, which is correlated to obedience, which is thus correlated to faith. Jesus instructed that this is what our Father is seeking.

    In other verses, "worship" is a translation of a word that means to serve.

    "Worship" is another word that just needs to be explained and not to be considered as something everybody understands because their church has a praise & worship (music & raise your hands in the air) leader.

    In the context of the entire quote, the last phrase is wrong. It's correlated to the opening statement. Our obedience is going to get us to heaven, because faith and obedience are essentially 2 sides of the same coin in Scripture. And obedience is essentially the "worship" Jesus is speaking of in John 4 and thus interconnected with faith. And not only is faith in Jesus Christ commanded by God, but our entire life as Christians is structured under hundreds of NT commands to be obeyed in continuing faith.

    This entire quote is essentially passing on the falsehood that obedience is a work. It's a part of the so-called gospel of those who immediately condemn all others as "works salvation" and a lack of recognizing and understanding God's grace.
     
Loading...