• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

Status
Not open for further replies.

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟98,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
no I don't think as long as there is no accusation of God if there is a hell and someone goes there ...and you state it as just speculation.
so, well a long as you don't try and use the bible to prove it
..or do some kind of accusations of God , or his word..
then there is this parable Luk 16:1 Jesus told his disciples: “There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 10
“Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.
how this relates to hell and salvation, I will never tell..:p
but this I know He will never "save" anyone who didn't want it.
Hey, that is beautiful. I love your modern day transition of the words in Luke. Just goes to prove that the Bible has a language all of its own.

Romans 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
 
Upvote 0

Proud Parrot

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2014
576
23
✟835.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'd say believing in an eternal fire and brimstone hell would be heresy. Not to mention blasphemy as pertains to imagining such a thing in light of an omni-benevolent God who is love.

Fire and brimstone hell was a Catholic interpolation interjected in the new testament scriptures.Attributed to Jesus and his teaching of it so as to impart a fear paradigm and bolster conversion to the faith that promised to save people from such a fate for their unbelief.

Jesus was a Jew. There is no such thing as that kind of after life in the Torah that he would have been raised to know being member of the temple. And of course God incarnate.

Fire and brimstone hell is the heresy. But some people need to fear their god in order to feel worthy of him.
It's your choice to believe in such nonsense since it is interpolation and not something a Jewish rabbi or Jesus would have taught. Read the Torah and learn the Jewish bible in matters of the after life to know what Yeshua would have actually taught in such matters. That's my advice. Now you'll read all sorts of denouements as relates to that personal opinion and that simply reiterates the power of the meme the Catholics interjected all those centuries ago as they fabled Christ to their liking.



So if a Christian did not believe that some people will stay in hell and be eternally punished/tortured, and instead believed in Annihiliationism or Universal Reconciliation, is that heretical thought?

Or what if a Christian was not sure on which belief in hell to accept (and therefore was not 100% sure that an eternal hell exists)?

Just curious on people's opinions here on whether or not it is heresy to not accept 100% the traditional view of hell.

PS: This may belong in the unorthodox section, thought I did want to see the opinion of people who are orthodox when it comes to this matter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: abysmul
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I'd say believing in an eternal fire and brimstone hell would be heresy.
That POV certainly is not heretical, and you can be sure of it since the great majority of Christian denominations believe in a hell that's defined in the historic way.

To think that it might be punishment or suffering or loss that is not physical "fire and brimstone" is a different matter, however. It's pretty well accepted that this imagery is only a way of describing the nature of hell and probably is not anything literal.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,117
6,145
EST
✟1,123,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'd say believing in an eternal fire and brimstone hell would be heresy. Not to mention blasphemy as pertains to imagining such a thing in light of an omni-benevolent God who is love.

Fire and brimstone hell was a Catholic interpolation interjected in the new testament scriptures.Attributed to Jesus and his teaching of it so as to impart a fear paradigm and bolster conversion to the faith that promised to save people from such a fate for their unbelief.

Jesus was a Jew. There is no such thing as that kind of after life in the Torah that he would have been raised to know being member of the temple. And of course God incarnate.

Fire and brimstone hell is the heresy. But some people need to fear their god in order to feel worthy of him.
It's your choice to believe in such nonsense since it is interpolation and not something a Jewish rabbi or Jesus would have taught. Read the Torah and learn the Jewish bible in matters of the after life to know what Yeshua would have actually taught in such matters. That's my advice. Now you'll read all sorts of denouements as relates to that personal opinion and that simply reiterates the power of the meme the Catholics interjected all those centuries ago as they fabled Christ to their liking.

What is the source of all this false information about Judaism and Hell? Historical evidence presented several times in this and other threads proves that the Christian belief is eternal punishment did not originate in paganism or the Catholic church but in pre-Christian Judaism and the teachings of Jesus.

Based on historical evidence below the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is false. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

•"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
•"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

In Matt 18:6 and 26:24 Jesus taught that there is punishment worse that death or nonexistence. These teachings supported and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. Jesus was born in and grew to maturity in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.” (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)​

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟98,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I'd say believing in an eternal fire and brimstone hell would be heresy. Not to mention blasphemy as pertains to imagining such a thing in light of an omni-benevolent God who is love.
Fire and brimstone hell was a Catholic interpolation interjected in the new testament scriptures.Attributed to Jesus and his teaching of it so as to impart a fear paradigm and bolster conversion to the faith that promised to save people from such a fate for their unbelief.
Fire and brimstone hell is the heresy. But some people need to fear their god in order to feel worthy of him.
Exactly! Just like the story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? It is strenuously denied by most evangelists that this story, as told by Christ, could be a parable. They hold that this is not a parable because it starts out in narrative form. It is argued, because it reads, "there was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day," that Christ is speaking here of an actual incident that took place. But in the parable of the prodigal son, in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, the narrative introduction is found also, for it says, "A certain man had two sons..." Yet it is generally conceded that the story of the prodigal son is a parable and all the fundamentalist preachers love to preach from its beautiful figures, thus applying it as a parable.

Jesus continually spoke in parables. A parable is an analogy - a simile, representation or analogous story - which could even be a fable, so long as it is used to illustrate certain essential points of TRUTH. An analogy is not necessarily the truth all by itself - but is analogous to the TRUTH which it helps to illustrate. For instance, a person might say, "My wife is a regular rabbit."

This is a metaphor, or a parable; but we would not conclude from this statement that his wife had two long ears and four feet and that she hopped about clad in fur, but would simply come to the conclusion that this lady is a great lover of vegetables perhaps even a vegetarian. If we were to push the parable to its ultimate analysis, the woman would cease to be a woman and would become an animal.

The disciples were curious as to why Jesus spoke in sometimes confusing parables. "And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? A parable, then, will confuse, bewilder and perplex the doubting and the unbelieving! It will enlighten only the quickened, true disciple of Jesus Christ! It is quite obvious, from the context, that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is in fact a parable!

Its setting is ignored. At the time the story was told Jesus had just eaten dinner with a Pharisee, at which time He not only healed a man with dropsy, but gave some pointed advice about how to give a dinner party.

At the beginning of Jesus' discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that "He spoke this parable unto them, saying," (Lk. 15:3). The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is "the parable this.." This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, "And He spoke this parable unto them," was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable?

And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - "this parable"? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!

Suppose a mother from the heavenly regions could look across the fixed gulf and see her son in the torments of hell; suppose she could hear him crying day and night for a drop of water to cool his tongue because of the burning heat of those lower regions. Would not the mother be as much in torment as the son, and in fact, would it not be more a place of hell for the mother than it would actually be for that son?

Therefore, it would seem impossible for anyone to believe that in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus is depicting conditions exactly as they will be in that world to come. http://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html
 
  • Like
Reactions: abysmul
Upvote 0

seeingeyes

Newbie
Nov 29, 2011
8,944
809
Backwoods, Ohio
✟35,360.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are we calling ourselves Christian with big "ifs", God is this way or that, and so we can't accept him if he isn't?

Unequivocally "yes".

I won't follow any god who is not at least as good as he's telling me to be. If that lands me in hell, so be it.
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟98,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That POV certainly is not heretical, and you can be sure of it since the great majority of Christian denominations believe in a hell that's defined in the historic way.

To think that it might be punishment or suffering or loss that is not physical "fire and brimstone" is a different matter, however. It's pretty well accepted that this imagery is only a way of describing the nature of hell and probably is not anything literal.
It's pretty well interesting what the great majority literalizes and what it doesn't.
 
Upvote 0

Timothew

Conditionalist
Aug 24, 2009
9,659
844
✟36,554.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I'd say believing in an eternal fire and brimstone hell would be heresy. Not to mention blasphemy as pertains to imagining such a thing in light of an omni-benevolent God who is love.

Fire and brimstone hell was a Catholic interpolation interjected in the new testament scriptures.Attributed to Jesus and his teaching of it so as to impart a fear paradigm and bolster conversion to the faith that promised to save people from such a fate for their unbelief.

Jesus was a Jew. There is no such thing as that kind of after life in the Torah that he would have been raised to know being member of the temple. And of course God incarnate.

Fire and brimstone hell is the heresy. But some people need to fear their god in order to feel worthy of him.
It's your choice to believe in such nonsense since it is interpolation and not something a Jewish rabbi or Jesus would have taught. Read the Torah and learn the Jewish bible in matters of the after life to know what Yeshua would have actually taught in such matters. That's my advice. Now you'll read all sorts of denouements as relates to that personal opinion and that simply reiterates the power of the meme the Catholics interjected all those centuries ago as they fabled Christ to their liking.

I'll start a new thread asking this question.
We've debated whether NOT believing in eternal torture is heresy, we need a new thread to discuss whether believing that God tortures the unsaved is a heresy.

(I will cleanup the language, since obviously those who believe that the lost will be burned in agony in fire forever and ever do not consider that such a thing is "torture" or that their god is the one who does the torturing.)
 
Upvote 0

shturt678s

Regular Member
Dec 11, 2013
2,733
118
✟25,797.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Thanx mucho. I used my GI bill more than 3 decades ago. I have a 4 GB flash drive and a 32 GB external HD which have just about every argument I have prepared in the last 14+ years. I got tired of digging for the same ol' lame ol' arguments over and over again. So now instead of searching the net I just look up the topic or scripture on my flash drive and post the response. Sometimes I have to tweak it a little.

I was wondering how you continue to be a over my head....good idea...thank you again.

Old tweaked out Jack...milage thing ;)
 
Upvote 0

seeingeyes

Newbie
Nov 29, 2011
8,944
809
Backwoods, Ohio
✟35,360.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Thanx mucho. I used my GI bill more than 3 decades ago. I have a 4 GB flash drive and a 32 GB external HD which have just about every argument I have prepared in the last 14+ years. I got tired of digging for the same ol' lame ol' arguments over and over again. So now instead of searching the net I just look up the topic or scripture on my flash drive and post the response. Sometimes I have to tweak it a little.

This is why it's so difficult to engage with you.
 
Upvote 0

Proud Parrot

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2014
576
23
✟835.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
A well thought out response. Thank you.

One problem however. Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, does not appear in the Torah.

Nor does it appear in Jewish text before 6BCE.

What is the source of all this false information about Judaism and Hell? Historical evidence presented several times in this and other threads proves that the Christian belief is eternal punishment did not originate in paganism or the Catholic church but in pre-Christian Judaism and the teachings of Jesus.

Based on historical evidence below the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is false. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

•"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
•"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

In Matt 18:6 and 26:24 Jesus taught that there is punishment worse that death or nonexistence. These teachings supported and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. Jesus was born in and grew to maturity in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.” (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)​

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum
 
Upvote 0

Proud Parrot

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2014
576
23
✟835.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well said.
Often in discussions like this people will often times forget that Jesus said he spoke in parables so that not all would understand. And that is sadly what happens. But it is as God wills and as Jesus forewarned.

Great post. :)


Exactly! Just like the story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? It is strenuously denied by most evangelists that this story, as told by Christ, could be a parable. They hold that this is not a parable because it starts out in narrative form. It is argued, because it reads, "there was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day," that Christ is speaking here of an actual incident that took place. But in the parable of the prodigal son, in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, the narrative introduction is found also, for it says, "A certain man had two sons..." Yet it is generally conceded that the story of the prodigal son is a parable and all the fundamentalist preachers love to preach from its beautiful figures, thus applying it as a parable.

Jesus continually spoke in parables. A parable is an analogy - a simile, representation or analogous story - which could even be a fable, so long as it is used to illustrate certain essential points of TRUTH. An analogy is not necessarily the truth all by itself - but is analogous to the TRUTH which it helps to illustrate. For instance, a person might say, "My wife is a regular rabbit."

This is a metaphor, or a parable; but we would not conclude from this statement that his wife had two long ears and four feet and that she hopped about clad in fur, but would simply come to the conclusion that this lady is a great lover of vegetables perhaps even a vegetarian. If we were to push the parable to its ultimate analysis, the woman would cease to be a woman and would become an animal.

The disciples were curious as to why Jesus spoke in sometimes confusing parables. "And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? A parable, then, will confuse, bewilder and perplex the doubting and the unbelieving! It will enlighten only the quickened, true disciple of Jesus Christ! It is quite obvious, from the context, that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is in fact a parable!

Its setting is ignored. At the time the story was told Jesus had just eaten dinner with a Pharisee, at which time He not only healed a man with dropsy, but gave some pointed advice about how to give a dinner party.

At the beginning of Jesus' discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that "He spoke this parable unto them, saying," (Lk. 15:3). The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is "the parable this.." This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, "And He spoke this parable unto them," was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable?

And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - "this parable"? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!

Suppose a mother from the heavenly regions could look across the fixed gulf and see her son in the torments of hell; suppose she could hear him crying day and night for a drop of water to cool his tongue because of the burning heat of those lower regions. Would not the mother be as much in torment as the son, and in fact, would it not be more a place of hell for the mother than it would actually be for that son?

Therefore, it would seem impossible for anyone to believe that in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Jesus is depicting conditions exactly as they will be in that world to come. Abraham's Bosom:The Parable;The Rich Man; Lazarus;The Deaths of the Rich Man and Lazarus;Abraham's Bosom; Lazarus In Abraham's Bosom; The Rich Man In Torment; The Great Gulf
 
Upvote 0

Stephen Kendall

believer of Jesus Christ
Sep 28, 2008
1,387
112
USA
✟17,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Sorry to offend any here, I have to go on, I enjoyed any positive fellowship that we had here. Will leave Christian forums for good, have too, I am considered non Christian by the organization. I am considered a heretic, not a real Christian, doesn't surprise me according to their rules. I will continue to post some in http://www.jesuschristians.com/forum as Stephen Kendall, same as here; for they are accepting of non-Nicaean, non-Trinity based Christians. Does anyone think nowadays? Trinity theology is a contaminant, not our true obedience to Jesus and our faith.

Be followers of Christ before you are anything, this is your salvation through Jesus, and at least it is where your rewards and hope are coming from. I was inspired to come online here over the last few weeks and have enjoyed it. I posted what I felt I needed to supporting God & Christ, not man's fears, notions, theologies, religions, superstitions and ways.

Some of my posts here will be deleted by the Christianforums' moderators. Remember that back in history the heretics were burned by the church and their writings & works. Did you know that Sir Isaac Newton's editor refused to print his book about the Trinity beliefs, for he surely would have been burned at the stake by the church as a heretic because of his views on Trinity at the time? All of Sir Isaac Newton's works and science would have been also destroyed for the sake of a non-early Christian thing, Trinity. I wonder if this Trinity theology will persist within the last great Christian persecution? I firmly believe the non-Christian (that is non-Trinitarian) true spiritual church of God, within every believer and follower of Christ, will stand, because it isn't part of a man made organization, it is a part of the spiritual family of God through Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, our Father in Heaven.

May the blessings of God be upon all those that seek him through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the son of the Living God, our Father in Heaven.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,117
6,145
EST
✟1,123,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
A well thought out response. Thank you.

One problem however. Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, does not appear in the Torah.

Nor does it appear in Jewish text before 6BCE.

And you think this is relevant how? The irrefutable evidence I presented proved that the Jews believed in an eternal hell before and during the time of Jesus. Of course, although the land was always there, Gehinnom did not come to be called by that name until quite a while after Israel wandered in the wilderness and Hinnom gave the valley to his sons. But the belief in a place of eternal, everlasting punishment for the unrighteous was there long before that. That is why the first mention of Gehinnom is in Joshua after Israel entered Canaan. I beleive Joshua was written before the 6th century BC.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,117
6,145
EST
✟1,123,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This is why it's so difficult to engage with you.

Why because I have heard all the same ol' arguments many times before, I have done the necessary research and can respond virtually as fast as the arguments can be posted. If someone wants to do some personal research and come up with some new arguments then my arguments might be refuted.
 
Upvote 0

Proud Parrot

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2014
576
23
✟835.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I see.
And you think this is relevant how? The irrefutable evidence I presented proved that the Jews believed in an eternal hell before and during the time of Jesus. Of course, although the land was always there, Gehinnom did not come to be called by that name until quite a while after Israel wandered in the wilderness and Hinnom gave the valley to his sons. But the belief in a place of eternal, everlasting punishment for the unrighteous was there long before that. That is why the first mention of Gehinnom is in Joshua after Israel entered Canaan. I beleive Joshua was written before the 6th century BC.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,117
6,145
EST
✟1,123,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's pretty well interesting what the great majority literalizes and what it doesn't.

And it is also interesting what the minority considers figurative. Some folks consider the entire Bible one big metaphor or analogy, while others only consider some things figurative. There is a whole alphabet of unorthodox theologies out there jousting over what is/is not figurative, LDS, JW, UPCI, OP, WWCG, SDA, COGIC, INC, ICC, etc. And surprise, surprise those figurative parts just happen to support whichever group is doing the deciding. Funny how that works.
 
Upvote 0

seeingeyes

Newbie
Nov 29, 2011
8,944
809
Backwoods, Ohio
✟35,360.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why because I have heard all the same ol' arguments many times before, I have done the necessary research and can respond virtually as fast as the arguments can be posted. If someone wants to do some personal research and come up with some new arguments then my arguments might be refuted.

I've asked you several times in several ways what you think about God. You don't seem to have an answer in your database. Do you like Him or not?
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,117
6,145
EST
✟1,123,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I've asked you several times in several ways what you think about God. You don't seem to have an answer in your database. Do you like Him or not?

I am not here to play 20 questions. You tell me what you think of God? Do you like Him or not? Then I might feel inclined to provide you an answer.

ואהבת את יהוה אלהיך בכל־לבבך ובכל־נפשׁך ובכל־מאדך׃
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.