Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

[By Faith Alone]

Sorry to offend any here, I have to go on, I enjoyed any positive fellowship that we had here. Will leave Christian forums for good, have too, I am considered non Christian by the organization. I am considered a heretic, not a real Christian, doesn't surprise me according to their rules. I will continue to post some in http://www.jesuschristians.com/forum as Stephen Kendall, same as here; for they are accepting of non-Nicaean, non-Trinity based Christians. Does anyone think nowadays? Trinity theology is a contaminant, not our true obedience to Jesus and our faith.

Be followers of Christ before you are anything, this is your salvation through Jesus, and at least it is where your rewards and hope are coming from. I was inspired to come online here over the last few weeks and have enjoyed it. I posted what I felt I needed to supporting God & Christ, not man's fears, notions, theologies, religions, superstitions and ways.

Some of my posts here will be deleted by the Christianforums' moderators. Remember that back in history the heretics were burned by the church and their writings & works. Did you know that Sir Isaac Newton's editor refused to print his book about the Trinity beliefs, for he surely would have been burned at the stake by the church as a heretic because of his views on Trinity at the time? All of Sir Isaac Newton's works and science would have been also destroyed for the sake of a non-early Christian thing, Trinity. I wonder if this Trinity theology will persist within the last great Christian persecution? I firmly believe the non-Christian (that is non-Trinitarian) true spiritual church of God, within every believer and follower of Christ, will stand, because it isn't part of a man made organization, it is a part of the spiritual family of God through Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, our Father in Heaven.

May the blessings of God be upon all those that seek him through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the son of the Living God, our Father in Heaven.

I know how you feel, but I threw my running shoes away many moons ago. If someone empties the "label gun" on ya, you must be doing something right.

Stand form on the Rock, Brother.

 

[Rick Otto]

And it is also interesting what the minority considers figurative. Some folks consider the entire Bible one big metaphor or analogy, while others only consider some things figurative. There is a whole alphabet of unorthodox theologies out there jousting over what is/is not figurative, LDS, JW, UPCI, OP, WWCG, SDA, COGIC, INC, ICC, etc. And surprise, surprise those figurative parts just happen to support whichever group is doing the deciding. Funny how that works.

Same thing with the literal.

Ha, ha.

 

[seeingeyes]

I am not here to play 20 questions. You tell me what you think of God? Do you like Him or not? Then I might feel inclined to provide you an answer.

ואהבת את יהוה אלהיך בכל־לבבך ובכל־נפשׁך ובכל־מאדך׃ ​

I do like Him. His grace is unbelievable. That's why we can't believe it. I stood in hell shaking my fist at Him till my arm fell off and He picked it up and stuck it back on so I could keep on shaking it. Who does that?

His kindness is not only unparalleled, it's inconceivable. He is downright wasteful with His blessings, raining on the just and the unjust alike. He looks down at a world full of hatred and selfishness and murder and says "hey, I'll send my son to set things right, even though he'll get killed" and His son says, "good plan, dad". Who does that?

Our God, holy beyond measure, creator of heaven and earth and anything else, throws Himself into the volcano for the sake of the natives. He breathes dusty air, teaches the dullest people he can find, poops off the side of a boat, and gets himself killed by a bunch of folks he could wipe out with a breath and forgives them even as they pound the nails in. Who does that?

There is none like Him. Every god that man has ever dreamed up has fallen hopelessly short of His bold and fearless love. The most selfless, generous, heroic man is a mere spark next to the fiery sun of our God.

And come hell or high water, I wanna be just like my Father when I grow up.

 

[Rick Otto]

I am not here to play 20 questions. You tell me what you think of God? Do you like Him or not? Then I might feel inclined to provide you an answer.

ואהבת את יהוה אלהיך בכל־לבבך ובכל־נפשׁך ובכל־מאדך׃ ​

I like Him a lot, I think of Him often, in many different ways.
May I suggest you get your game on?

... unless it's trying to impress me with Hebrew. (Can't read it yet).

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I know how you feel, but I threw my running shoes away many moons ago. If someone empties the "label gun" on ya, you must be doing something right.

Stand form on the Rock, Brother.

I did try leaving before, but felt that God wanted me to return several times, maybe you are right, but the moderators can delete what they please, silence you here. Can't they. Can't they banned you altogether? Well, maybe my absence won't be as long as I thought.

Thank you for your support.

 

[seeingeyes]

I did try leaving before, but felt that God wanted me to return several times, maybe you are right, but the moderators can delete what they please, silence you here. Can't they. Can't they banned you altogether? Well, maybe my absence won't be as long as I thought.

Thank you for your support.

Yes, they can. Not before the ones who need to read what you said read it, though. God is still in charge.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Yes, they can. Not before the ones who need to read what you said read it, though. God is still in charge.

That is powerful. Thank you for your words.

 

[mmksparbud]

So if a Christian did not believe that some people will stay in hell and be eternally punished/tortured, and instead believed in Annihiliationism or Universal Reconciliation, is that heretical thought?

Or what if a Christian was not sure on which belief in hell to accept (and therefore was not 100% sure that an eternal hell exists)?

Just curious on people's opinions here on whether or not it is heresy to not accept 100% the traditional view of hell.

PS: This may belong in the unorthodox section, thought I did want to see the opinion of people who are orthodox when it comes to this matter.

Tradition does not dictate truth. There are many verses (they've been posted here) that point to the fact that there is no everlasting burning hell and therefore one can not be a heretic for believing what the bible clearly states. Because a couple of verses say something that seems different on first appearance, doesn't mean you throw out the other 5o verses that point to the opposite point of view. Sodom is stated as burning with an everlasting fire--it is not still burning. It was however, a fire that could not be extinguished until it had consumed everything.

 

[he-man]

I am not here to play 20 questions. You tell me what you think of God? Do you like Him or not? Then I might feel inclined to provide you an answer.

ואהבת את יהוה אלהיך בכל־לבבך ובכל־נפשׁך ובכל־נפשׁך׃
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.​

You must be out of breath if you are not here to answer questions or is that not to Love Jehovah your God wth your whole heart, whole mind, whole breath?
​

First, check out the words, where did they come from and WHEN? If the first known use was the 14th or 15th century, then the words torture, torment cannot apply.

torment First Known Use: 14th century
noun: extreme physical or mental pain
something that causes extreme physical or mental pain
Full Definition of TORMENT
1: the infliction of torture (as by rack or wheel)
2: extreme pain or anguish of body or mind : agony
3: a source of vexation or pain

Torture: First Known Use 1588
a : anguish of body or mind : agony
b : something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/

ME: from OFr. torment (n.), tormenter (v.), from L. tormentum 'instrument of torture', from torquere 'to twist'. © Oxford University Press, 2004

That all boils down to the Hebrew punishment יסר yâsar if they will not obey God.

<H3256> &#1497;&#1505;&#1512; ya&#770;sar A primitive root; to chastise, literally (with blows) or figuratively (with words); hence to instruct: - bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach.
Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Koine Greek G928 &#946;&#945;&#963;&#945;&#957;&#943;&#950;&#969; &#946;&#963;&#963;&#959;&#957;&#953;&#950;&#962; &#946;&#945;&#963;&#945;&#957;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#959;&#962; &#946;&#945;&#963;&#963;&#957;&#953;&#963;&#952;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#963;&#953; rack, OE wræc 'vengeance, destruction', related to wreak; cf. Wrack. Scourge; plague, harass, tease, distressed, afflict, flay, agonize, harass, bait, harrow, bedevil, harry, excruciate, worry, obsess, pester, prey on,

 

[Proud Parrot]

I like Him a lot, I think of Him often, in many different ways.
May I suggest you get your game on?

... unless it's trying to impress me with Hebrew. (Can't read it yet).

Don't worry. Those that can actually write it don't foul up in the copy and paste so that what they wrote reads as: Love the Lord thy God in all thy heart, and with all Nfs&#1473;c and all-Madc:

 

[shturt678s]

Going back over the posts again, I've concluded for myself raising the bar regarding interpretation of Scriptures (allowing God the Holy Spirit interpret) going from the ancient languages forward to the English placing more weight on the contextual evidence as well as using grammar (as Der Alter has been doing) in contrast to a few others interpreting going forward also, yet mostly only grammatically. Most appalling interpret going from the English backwards to the ancient languages keeping things simple.

Also anytime one actually applies IIPet.1:20, 21 in interpreting Scriptures, many will view this as complicated, uncomfortable, and inconvenient for sure.

Old Jack still taking notes.

BTW agape that forward kind of interpreting.

 

[Der Alte]

Same thing with the literal.

Ha, ha.

And you object to someone believing that scripture should be read literally and understood exactly as written? Here is the maxim that genuine Bible scholars use, "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." However the unorthodox use the rule "How can we interpret this so it supports our assumptions/presuppositions."

 

[JoeNorwood]

God's ways are mysterious. Actually, it is GOOD to not believe that.

You know why?
Because you are fully admitting that you have no control over god, and fully accepting that you are in his control, doing his will, and fully admitting that you don't have the knowledge he has.

 

[Der Alte]

I like Him a lot, I think of Him often, in many different ways.
May I suggest you get your game on?

... unless it's trying to impress me with Hebrew. (Can't read it yet).

I answered your question. I obey Jesus, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

&#1493;&#1488;&#1492;&#1489;&#1514; &#1488;&#1514; &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; &#1488;&#1500;&#1492;&#1497;&#1498; &#1489;&#1499;&#1500;&#1470;&#1500;&#1489;&#1489;&#1498; &#1493;&#1489;&#1499;&#1500;&#1470;&#1504;&#1508;&#1513;&#1473;&#1498; &#1493;&#1489;&#1499;&#1500;&#1470;&#1502;&#1488;&#1491;&#1498;&#1475; ​

 

[shturt678s]

And you object to someone believing that scripture should be read literally and understood exactly as written? Here is the maxim that genuine Bible scholars use, "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." However the unorthodox use the rule "How can we interpret this so it supports our assumptions/presuppositions."

Added, and placed right above "What it thinks it really is, what it only pretends to be", source?...not mine, however added with the former to Rev.13:14b & a lack of fearing our Lord & hell & heresy.

Old Jack

 

[he-man]

deleted

 

[By Faith Alone]

yes there is, most all Christians take the word to be the preincarnate Christ, thus they have changed the word of god that says 'the word was God' to 'the preincarnate Christ was God.' The word is a term for the word of God, not for any preincarnate Christ.

I believe the word was God means that God's words are god. and I take that meaning figuratively to mean the same sort of thing as saying "your words Faith Alone are you." IN other words God's words tell us everything about who and what God is. God is not his words, but his words do tell us who and what he is.

We know NOTHING about God in the absolute except that He is Spirit. That is all. Everything else we know about Him is in relative terms.

Elohim condescended Himself to make Himself known to the world. God spoke to man before the written word came into being. He spoke through the constellations, which began with the Virgin and ended with the Lion (Psalm 19). The lights in the heavens were for PROPHETIC signs and SEASONS of the Solar cycles. God's "time-piece", if you will.
He spoke THROUGH the prophets and then came down Himself to redeem mankind .....IN SON.

Jesus Christ walked in the Garden with Adam in the cool of the day. That is LITERAL. And God formed man out of the dust of the ground. He did this by His OWN physical hand. The same God of Genesis 1:1 BECAME man in the flesh of the Son.

 

[o2bwise]

Exodus 21:6 (KJV)
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

The same Greek word rendered as forever in the NT is used in the Septuagint in this verse (forever) thus requiring the word cannot necessarily mean of eternal time duration.

1 Timothy 6:16
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 17:3
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


Blessings,

Tony

 

[By Faith Alone]

Exodus 21:6 (KJV)
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
The same Greek word rendered as forever in the NT is used in the Septuagint in this verse (forever) thus requiring the word cannot necessarily mean of eternal time duration.
1 Timothy 6:16
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 17:3
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Blessings,
Tony

The Son's kingdom is said to be eternal (aion). Right here it says that kingdom ends:
Luke 1:32-33
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of... his kingdom there shall be no end.

First bold is His reign as King over Israel as prophesied as Messiah. "For ever" is "unto the age". Aion, as said, is finite. The second bold is after the reign over the house of David is complete, the age beyond will be permanent. "There shall be no end" means just that.

We have to watch it. Here is the goal of the ages revealed.

1 Cor 15:24, 25, 28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.....For he must reign.... TILL....he hath put all enemies under his feet. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


This passage shows when the Son's reign has accomplished it's goal in subduing, etc., and there is no longer anything else not needed to be brought right, there is no longer a need for the Son nor Redeemer, those two offices of God will have to be absorbed back into the Godhead to give the condition again like as Genesis 1:1. We then and ONLY then, will have reached an eternal state.It will be then that our Bible will be TRULY outdated.

Just a side-bar. Carry on.

 

[Der Alte]

Exodus 21:6 (KJV)
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

The same Greek word rendered as forever in the NT is used in the Septuagint in this verse (forever) thus requiring the word cannot necessarily mean of eternal time duration.

Irrelevant! Translation Greek was not the original words. That a word is used hyperbolically does not chnages the meaning.

1 Timothy 6:16
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 17:3
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Blessings,

Tony

What is your point? Here is a little study on the word Aionios.

Aionio's" - A Lexical Survey

Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; evidently carries certain implications associated with &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios​