Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

Der Alte · Sep 20, 2014

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. 67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

αιωνιος
Strong's - Greek 165

NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds

CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):

In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end

aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strongs Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

aionion, aionios αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixtysix places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

Eis tous aionios ton aionion εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.

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What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry[/indent]

By Faith Alone · Sep 20, 2014

YOO HOO!

Der Altar and everyone else. I would advise AGAINST having lexicons, dictionaries, etc to be NO MORE than a servant and NOT your master.JMVHO. :angel:

Der Alte · Sep 20, 2014

By Faith Alone said:
YOO HOO!

Der Altar and everyone else. I would advise AGAINST having lexicons, dictionaries, etc to be NO MORE than a servant and NOT your master.JMVHO

What do you suggest I do take the word of every poster who comes along claiming this Greek/Hebrew word doesn't mean "X" it means "Y?" When most of them couldn't locate a Hebrew verb or conjugate a Greek verb if their life depended on it. I use lexicons to determine the correct meaning of words nothing more nor less.

shturt678s · Sep 20, 2014

By Faith Alone said:
YOO HOO!

Der Altar and everyone else. I would advise AGAINST having lexicons, dictionaries, etc to be NO MORE than a servant and NOT your master.JMVHO.

So you're not for interpreting Scripture via IIPet.1:20, 21 going forward from the ancient languages using the tools that our Lord gave us to the English.

Old Jack

Such irony...we're blessed with having Biblical truth dropped right onto our laps, yet most of us will end up cursed viewing truth as fallacious...astounding!

Don't pay that much attention, just an old Lutheran with 500,000 miles on his engine thinking out loud again.

Old Jack

Anto9us · Sep 20, 2014

I like the word studies.

Lexicons are tools, and never 'mastered' anyone to my knowledge.

shturt678s · Sep 21, 2014

Anto9us said:
I like the word studies.

Lexicons are tools, and never 'mastered' anyone to my knowledge.

With you on this one, however lexicons added to a IIPet.1:20, 21 contextual interpretation as Der Alter has done on this specific thread, I'm unable to find error contextually or even grammatically..

Specifically show one passage (anyone) where and how he's contextually in error on this thread, I'm all ears.

BTW Der Alter and I agree to disagree in many areas on our views of IIThess.2 & Revelation thus not rubber stamping his posts, ie, only on this thread for an example with purpose.

Old Jack's opinion :amen:

he-man · Sep 21, 2014

Der Alter said:
I use lexicons to determine the correct meaning of words nothing more nor less.

Okay, First, check out the words, where did they come from and WHEN? If the first known use was the 14th or 15th century, then the words torture, torment cannot apply.
That all boils down to the Hebrew punishment יסר yâsar if they will not obey God.
<H3256> יסר yâsar A primitive root; to chastise, literally (with blows) or figuratively (with words); hence to instruct: - bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach.

Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Koine Greek G928 βασανίζω βσσονιζς βασανισμος βασσνισθησοντσι rack, OE wræc 'vengeance, destruction', related to wreak; cf. Wrack. Scourge; plague, harass, tease, distressed, afflict, flay, agonize, harass, bait, harrow, bedevil, harry, excruciate, worry, obsess, pester, prey on,

What do you suppose and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and there was found no place for them; could possibly mean in Rev 20:9, 11?

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

2Th 1:7 and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with the angels of his power, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay <G2695> them before me.
κατασφάττω to slay utterly; κατασφάζω, later κατα-σφάττω Luc.Sacr.12 (Pass. - A σφάττεσθαι Jul. Or.5.174a ): fut. -ξω LXX Ez.16.40 : slaughter, murder

And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them upexactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
"
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain <H2491> of the LORD shall be many. H2491 חלל châlâl nm. dead, fatal casualty, fallen

Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain <H2491> also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

"the heavens shall vanish away like smoke" they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff ?
Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look on the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven, thou wilt drive them away; as wax melteth before the fire, the wicked shall perish at the presence of God.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Do you really think smoke literally lasts forever or doesn't it really mean vaporized and Anihilation?

Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
I haven't been there recently, but do you think Sodom and Gomorrha is still burning or does it mean they vanish away like vapour of smoke; Anihilated eternally?

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Now, Der Alter, What do you think this means?
Ps 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

shturt678s · Sep 21, 2014

Only an opinion from the bottom of the pecking order me, ie, Rev.20:7-8 reaches the end of the world where Rev.20:9-10 is the end.

Specifically Rev.16:16 = Rev.20:7-8. leading up to my end point (discredit any part of the former discredits my end point if one can?)

Rev.20:9, "...And there came down fire out of the heaven and devoured them." My rendition contextually with v.10, "...and they shall be be tormented by day and by night for the eons of the eons." :o

katephagen, "devoured" must be taken in the context of v.10....no annihilation for sure...tormented day and night forever and ever...we need to have a contextual fear of our Lord not wanting to offend nor provoke Him waaay beyond church on Sunday for the whole "1" hour...use to be a whole "1.5" hours, ie, hypergrace of today sort of thing. :groupray:

Old Jack just thinking out loud again.

o2bwise · Sep 21, 2014

Der Alder:
Irrelevant! Translation Greek was not the original words. That a word is used hyperbolically does not chnages the meaning.

I do not believe it is irrelevant and I don't believe the word is used hyperbolically.

The Greek scholars who penned the Greek OT knew their own language. aion need not require eternal time duration, rather the duration is also dependent on the nature of the object.

Kind of like the english word always.

o2bwise · Sep 21, 2014

Revelation is so metaphorical and with that, I tend to think the smoke that ascends for ever does ascend for eternal time duration.

I think the smoke is simply the revelation of how destructive sin is. The faithful will never forget that smoke. It will always "ascend."

By the way...

Isaiah 33:14
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

Good question! Glad someone asked!

Isaiah 33:15
15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, He who despises the gain of oppressions, Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, And shuts his eyes from seeing evil:

What is the fire that cannot be put out anyway?

Song of Solomon 8:6-7a
6 The Shulamite to Her Beloved Set me as a seal upon your heart, As a seal upon your arm; For love is as strong as death, Jealousy as cruel as the grave; Its flames are flames of fire, A most vehement flame. 7 Many waters cannot quench love, Nor can the floods drown it.

he-man · Sep 21, 2014

shturt678s said:
Rev.20:9, "...And there came down fire out of the heaven and devoured them." My rendition contextually with v.10, "...and they shall be be tormented by day and by night for the eons of the eons." katephagen, "devoured" must be taken in the context of v.10....no annihilation for sure...tormented day and night forever and ever...Old Jack just thinking out loud again.

Hey thanks for the imput ole Jack, however you missed my points: there was found no place for them.

Check out the words, torture, torment, where did they come from and WHEN? If the first known use was the 14th or 15th century, then the words torture, torment cannot apply.

That all boils down to the Hebrew punishment יסר yâsar if they will not obey God.
<H3256> יסר yâsar A primitive root; to chastise, literally (with blows) or figuratively (with words); hence to instruct: - bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach.

What happens to people when they rebel and refuse to accept Chastisement ?

Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Koine Greek G928 βασανίζω βσσονιζς βασανισμος βασσνισθησοντσι rack, OE wræc 'vengeance, destruction', related to wreak; cf. Wrack. Scourge; plague, harass, tease, distressed, afflict, flay, agonize, harass, bait, harrow, bedevil, harry, excruciate, worry, obsess, pester, prey on,

What do you suppose and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and there was found no place for them; could possibly mean in Rev 20:9, 11?

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured <G2719> them. [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G2719 καταφαγεν κατεσθίω κατεφαγεν be eaten away[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]H3898 לחם lâcham A primitive root; to feed on; figuratively to consume; by implication to battle (as destruction): - devour, eat, X ever, fight (-ing), overcome, prevail, (make) war (-ring).[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]H398 אכל 'âkal A primitive root; to eat (literally or figuratively): - X at all, burn up, consume, devour (-er, up), dine, eat (-er, up)

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

2Th 1:7 and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with the angels of his power, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay <G2695> them before me.
κατασφάττω to slay utterly; κατασφάζω, later κατα-σφάττω Luc.Sacr.12 (Pass. - A σφάττεσθαι Jul. Or.5.174a ): fut. -ξω LXX Ez.16.40 :— slaughter, murder
I
sa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain <H2491> of the LORD shall be many. H2491 חלל châlâl nm. dead, fatal casualty, fallen

And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up—exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
"
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain <H2491> also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

"the heavens shall vanish away like smoke" they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look on the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke

Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven, thou wilt drive them away; as wax melteth before the fire, the wicked shall perish at the presence of God.

Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Do you really think smoke literally lasts forever or doesn't it really mean vaporized and Anihilation?
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

I haven't been there recently, but do you think Sodom and Gomorrha is still burning or does it mean they vanish away like vapour of smoke; Anihilated eternally?
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Now, Der Alter, What do you think this means?

Ps 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: <H398> coals were kindled by it.H398 אכל 'âkal A primitive root; to eat (literally or figuratively): - X at all, burn up, consume, devour (-er, up), dine, eat (-er, up)

shturt678s · Sep 21, 2014

he-man said:
Hey thanks for the imput ole Jack, however you missed my points: there was found no place for them. [/SIZE]

Check out the words, torture, torment, where did they come from and WHEN? If the first known use was the 14th or 15th century, then the words torture, torment cannot apply.

That all boils down to the Hebrew punishment יסר yâsar if they will not obey God.
<H3256> יסר yâsar A primitive root; to chastise, literally (with blows) or figuratively (with words); hence to instruct: - bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach.

What happens to people when they rebel and refuse to accept Chastisement ?

Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Koine Greek G928 βασανίζω βσσονιζς βασανισμος βασσνισθησοντσι rack, OE wræc 'vengeance, destruction', related to wreak; cf. Wrack. Scourge; plague, harass, tease, distressed, afflict, flay, agonize, harass, bait, harrow, bedevil, harry, excruciate, worry, obsess, pester, prey on,

What do you suppose and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and there was found no place for them; could possibly mean in Rev 20:9, 11?

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured <G2719> them.

Remember in the 10th grade, the conjuctive "and" simply connects sentences grammatically and contextually, eg, Rev.20:9, "...And there came down fire...and devoured them. v.10, and tormented by day and night for the eons and of the eons." BTW "and there was no place for them" puts a little subtle twist to the rendition contextually correct?

Simply connected grammatically, aspectually, and contextually...12th grade stuff, correct? If they simply poofed away, then there would be no "tormented by day and night" for eternity would there? Although I do agree sounds seductive, ie, party out in/out of the Churches in extreme hypergrace then simply just poof with no forever punishment...attractive, howerver fallacious.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G2719 καταφαγεν κατεσθίω κατεφαγεν be eaten away[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]H3898 לחם lâcham A primitive root; to feed on; figuratively to consume; by implication to battle (as destruction): - devour, eat, X ever, fight (-ing), overcome, prevail, (make) war (-ring).[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]H398 אכל 'âkal A primitive root; to eat (literally or figuratively): - X at all, burn up, consume, devour (-er, up), dine, eat (-er, up)

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

2Th 1:7 and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with the angels of his power, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay <G2695> them before me.
κατασφάττω to slay utterly; κατασφάζω, later κατα-σφάττω Luc.Sacr.12 (Pass. - A σφάττεσθαι Jul. Or.5.174a ): fut. -ξω LXX Ez.16.40 :— slaughter, murder
I
sa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain <H2491> of the LORD shall be many. H2491 חלל châlâl nm. dead, fatal casualty, fallen

And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up—exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
"
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain <H2491> also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

"the heavens shall vanish away like smoke" they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look on the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke

Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven, thou wilt drive them away; as wax melteth before the fire, the wicked shall perish at the presence of God.

Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Do you really think smoke literally lasts forever or doesn't it really mean vaporized and Anihilation?
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

I haven't been there recently, but do you think Sodom and Gomorrha is still burning or does it mean they vanish away like vapour of smoke; Anihilated eternally?
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Now, Der Alter, What do you think this means?

Ps 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: <H398> coals were kindled by it.H398 אכל 'âkal A primitive root; to eat (literally or figuratively): - X at all, burn up, consume, devour (-er, up), dine, eat (-er, up)

Only old Jack's opinion

RevelationTestament · Sep 21, 2014

LittleLambofJesus said:
Anyone else here notice that the exact form of the LXX greek word αναστησονται in Isaiah 26:19 is used in only 2 verses of the NT...Matt 12:41 and 1 Thess 4:16.

The literal rendering is "shall be resurrecting/standing up"

Just thought that was interesting......

Isaiah 26:19 But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise-- let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy-- your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

New American Standard Bible
Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

King James Bible
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

[LXX] Isaiah 26:19 ana-sthsontai oi nekroi kai egerqhsontai oi en toiv mnhmeioiv kai eufranqhsontai oi en th gh h gar drosov h para sou iama autoiv estin h de gh twn asebwn peseitai

Matt 12:41
`Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with this generation and shall be condemning it,
that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
That Himself, the Lord, in a shout-of-command, in voice of chief-messenger, and in trump of God, shall be descending from heaven,
and the dead-ones in Christ shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) First,

.

Hmm. Which do you feel is correct?
The KJV basically tells us that Jesus is speaking as YHWH..."together with MY DEAD BODY..."
Do you think that can be correct?

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 21, 2014

RevelationTestament said:
Hmm. Which do you feel is correct?
The KJV basically tells us that Jesus is speaking as YHWH..."together with MY DEAD BODY..."
Do you think that can be correct?

King James Bible
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Whoa....You might be on to something.

Remember when Jesus died and the dead were raised, then after His resurrection, they came out of their tombs. Fascinating event!

Matthew 27
52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

.

RevelationTestament · Sep 21, 2014

Hmm. I will check if this is a different reading between the Septuagint and the Hebrew masoretic text.

Der Alte · Sep 21, 2014

o2bwise said:
I do not believe it is irrelevant and I don't believe the word is used hyperbolically.

The Greek scholars who penned the Greek OT knew their own language. aion need not require eternal time duration, rather the duration is also dependent on the nature of the object.

Kind of like the english word always.

What you "believe" without supporting evidence is pretty much irrelevant. As anyone who has read my double post above, which cites nine irrefutable Greek languages sources, can see the word "aionios" very definitely has the meaning forever, eternal, unending, everlasting.

There is nothing which indicates that the phrase "for ever and ever" does not mean the exact same thing in all these verses.

Rev 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Rev 4:9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever,

Rev 10:6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 21, 2014

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

A similar phrase is used in Reve 12:8. Interesting
I think it may be talking about the OC Mosaic Priesthood/Rulers that Jesus railed against?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7588850/

Rev 12:8
but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

.

he-man · Sep 21, 2014

shturt678s said:
Simply connected grammatically, aspectually, and contextually...12th grade stuff, correct? If they simply poofed away, then there would be no "tormented by day and night" for eternity would there? Although I do agree sounds seductive, ie, party out in/out of the Churches in extreme hypergrace then simply just poof with no forever punishment...attractive, howerver fallacious. Only old Jack's opinion

contextually? You seem to have overlooked some of the most obvious words like to burn up as the chaff and who was it speaking about contextually as used in Rev 20:10
".. where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented <from the Hebrew H3256> day and night for ever and ever.

<H3256> יסר yâsar A primitive root; to chastise, literally (with blows) or figuratively (with words); hence to instruct: - bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach.
2Th 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might

Who was it contextually that compassed the camp of the saints ?

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured <G2719> them. G2719 καταφαγεν κατεσθίω κατεφαγεν be eaten away
H3898 לחם lâcham A primitive root; to feed on; figuratively to consume; by implication to battle (as destruction): - devour, eat, X ever, fight (-ing), overcome, prevail, (make) war (-ring).

H398 אכל 'âkal A primitive root; to eat (literally or figuratively): - X at all, burn up, consume, devour (-er, up), dine, eat (-er, up)

Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
- They died.
- The wages of sin is death.
- They died suddenly.
- They died before the Lord; that is, before the vail that covered the mercy-seat.
- They died by fire, as by fire they sinned.
The fire did not burn them to ashes, as it had done the sacrifices, nor so much as singe their coats (Lev_10:5) but struck them dead in an instant. By these different effects of the same fire, we learn that it was no common fire, but kindled by the breath of the Almighty. Isa_30:33 [TSK]

No place for whom? Verse 10 the beast and the false prophet
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Now, contextually, according to verse 14 But his people had no love for him, and sent representatives after him, saying, We will not have this man for our ruler. so who are the enemies that are going to be slaughtered before the Lord?

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay <G2695> them before me.
κατασφάττω to slay utterly; κατασφάζω, later κατα-σφάττω Luc.Sacr.12 (Pass. - A σφάττεσθαι Jul. Or.5.174a ): fut. -ξω LXX Ez.16.40 :— slaughter, murder

Is 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain <H2491> of the LORD shall be many. H2491 חלל châlâl nm. dead, fatal casualty, fallen

Psa 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.

Do you know what the chaff contextually represents? And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up—exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
"
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain <H2491> also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Do you really contextually think her smoke literally lasts forever or doesn't it really mean vaporized and Anihilation?
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

So, tell me, do you really think Sodom and Gomorrha is contextually still burning or does it mean contextually they vanish away like vapour of smoke; Anihilated eternally?
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

What do you think this means contextually?

Ps 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: <H398> coals were kindled by it.H398 אכל 'âkal A primitive root; to eat (literally or figuratively): - X at all, burn up, consume, devour (-er, up), dine, eat (-er, up)

What do you think contextually the Great Supper of God means?
Luk 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

Anto9us · Sep 21, 2014

I think it was "the bad guys" that compassed the camp of the saints

I think there is too much focus on ENGLISH words for torture and torment when the NT was written in Greek (with a POSSIBLE Aramaic rough draft of Matthew)

I think there's a little too much emphasis on SEPTUGINT using Greek Anastasia in Isaiah when all know Isaiah was originally written in Hebrew

Scrolls of Isaiah 900 years earlier than before-known manuscripts were found in Dead Sea Scrolls -- not really dime's worth of difference in Hebrew copies of Isaiah

Septuagint copies of Isaiah were centuries after the Hebrew - centuries - eons of eons?

Languages are fascinating -- we must have common sense and not anachronisms when studying them

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 21, 2014

Anto9us said:
I think it was "the bad guys" that compassed the camp of the saints

I think there is too much focus on ENGLISH words for torture and torment when the NT was written in Greek (with a POSSIBLE Aramaic rough draft of Matthew)

I think there's a little too much emphasis on SEPTUGINT using Greek Anastasia in Isaiah when all know Isaiah was originally written in Hebrew

Scrolls of Isaiah 900 years earlier than before-known manuscripts were found in Dead Sea Scrolls -- not really dime's worth of difference in Hebrew copies of Isaiah

Septuagint copies of Isaiah were centuries after the Hebrew - centuries - eons of eons?

Languages are fascinating -- we must have common sense and not anachronisms when studying them

Good post.

.

Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Junior Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

he-man

Regular Member

Newbie

Newbie

he-man

Regular Member

Our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Our God is a consuming fire.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

he-man

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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