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True.
Martin Luther and Calvin were heretics to the RCC.
Name calling proves nothing.
in Christ,
Bob
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It is heresy to those churches that declare certain beliefs to be heresies.
That you read the Bible differently from most Christians and Christian churches doesn't change that.
I don't make the rules. i'd be more than happy to discuss things with you. But we'll need to find a different place. As I don't own the site, no, I could not allow that. I don't have that authority.
That said, I do not believe God tortures people. I believe man's hate toward God make experiencing His love a self torture. And yes eternally. The Orthodox view of hell is not what most subscribe to here. Except for the Orthodox posters. I don't see hell as a place per say. I see hell as a condition of one's soul experiencing the love of God.
Consider this verse:"Thou preparest a table before me
in the presence of my enemies;
thou anointest my head with oil,
my cup overflows."
Now is this verse true? How so if our enemies cease to be? How so if they are separated completely from us? Would such a sight not be hell to our enemy?
I tend to agree, especially after studying a lot on that covenantle parable/story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16.
It seems as if, that is the only place, besides Revelation, that shows someone being tormented in "hell".
Have you or others read any commentaries on it? This is what comes up in a google search:
https://www.google.com/search?sourc...0.0l5.0.0.12.55403013...........0.la5M-YMeR9E
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM
.......................................................
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity.
.
I'm thinking you have to be or have once been a Catholic to be condemned as a heretic by the Catholic Church.
But you don't have to be or have been to speak what they call heresy. I'm thinking what they see us as is heretical. Maybe a Catholic could confirm this for us?
Like you, I'm not losing much sleep over it in any event.
No. That would not be a heresy. It's not a matter of opinion. Heresies have been outlined by the church from the beginning and the nature of hell was never a place that the church drew its line.
I believe that the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment/torture in hell. Since it was Paul who wrote "For the wages of sin is death", I do not believe that it is heretical to believe that the wages of sin is death.
Matt 10:28
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Ezek 18:4
4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Ezek 28
You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.
Some will argue that it is ok to quote the bible - as long as you don't affirm it.
Catholics see protestants as separated brethren and that would include many within the Anglican communion because within that communion is a large body of evangelicals for whom the sacraments are of minimal interest if of any interest at all. None of these are heretics having never been Catholic, but those who have abandoned the Catholic Faith to take up another Protestant faith having known and believed that the Catholic Faith is true such persons are heretics. The Orthodox are not heretics, and most are not schismatic, only those who have left the Catholic Church to join the Orthodox knowing that by doing so they enter schism are schismatics. Orthodox Christians who have left the Catholic Church to join an Orthodox jurisdiction would be hard pressed to be in heresy, except perhaps on the matter of papal jurisdiction.
Originally Posted by seeingeyes
Instead, they decided to label these conversations that they disapprove of as being outside of the church, claiming them to be "non-Nicene". Perhaps no one read the Nicene creed before making such a determination. Sloppy at best, pharisaical at worst, it's a disgrace to the name of our Lord.
(I know that wasn't the purpose of your OP, but I felt that it needed to be said.)
I agree, and I had a long conversation with the bosses of Christianforums.com about that very issue. They weren't interested in backing away from their stance that Annihilationism is Unorthodox. Even though (as you have pointed out) the Nicene Creed is very Annihilionism-Friendly. I can fully affirm the Nicene Creed without reservation and remain an "Annihilationist".
I really believe that the CF bosses should rethink this. As we all should rethink hell.
Here's a website for anyone considering rethinking hell: Welcome to Rethinking Hell
Well at the very least it was short sighted to claim that the ban on Luther's teaching about Hell is due to the Nicene creed -- it has a different source of origin than the Nicene creed.
in Christ,
Bob
I know some protestants who believe that all Catholics are heretics. I'm not one of those. I would rather discuss what the Bible says than call someone a heretic just because they can't see what the Bible plainly says.
So was my patron Saint W. Tyndale.True.
Martin Luther and Calvin were heretics to the RCC.
Name calling proves nothing.
in Christ,
Bob
There is a difference between a Catholic bible and the bible you use, I think. A Catholic bible has 73 books in it.
Whichever. If a book is true, then it is true.
What part of the 73 books says that people go to hellll when they die where they are tortured alive forever while they are dead? Do any of the 73 books include John 3:16? What does John 3:16 say in your Bible, and why do you consider me a heretic for believing what John 3:16 says?
Wisdom suggests it. Have you read Wisdom?
Why would I consider you a heretic? Odd for you to ask if you read the post you quoted a while back.
Weren't you one of the Catholics who said that those who believe John 3:16 are heretics? I may have you confused with someone else.
I think you have me confused with somebody else.
No, can you quote the passage? I've found that when people say that their Bible says that God tortures the lost, it really doesn't say that.
By the way, you never answered my question. Is John 3:16 in your Bible? What does it say? And why do you think I am a heretic for believing what Jesus said in John 3:16?
Yes, John 3:16 is in my bible. It says, For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that all who believe in him may not perish, but may have eternal life.
The passage in Wisdom is quite long,
Wisdom 1:16-3:12 NJB
(16) But the godless call for Death with deed and word, counting him friend, they wear themselves out for him; with him they make a pact, worthy as they are to belong to him.
(1) And this is the false argument they use, 'Our life is short and dreary, there is no remedy when our end comes, no one is known to have come back from Hades.
(2) We came into being by chance and afterwards shall be as though we had never been. The breath in our nostrils is a puff of smoke, reason a spark from the beating of our hearts;
(3) extinguish this and the body turns to ashes, and the spirit melts away like the yielding air.
(4) In time, our name will be forgotten, nobody will remember what we have done; our life will pass away like wisps of cloud, dissolving like the mist that the sun's rays drive away and that its heat dispels.
(5) For our days are the passing of a shadow, our end is without return, the seal is affixed and nobody comes back.
(6) 'Come then, let us enjoy the good things of today, let us use created things with the zest of youth:
(7) take our fill of the dearest wines and perfumes, on no account forgo the flowers of spring
(8) but crown ourselves with rosebuds before they wither,
(9) no meadow excluded from our orgy; let us leave the signs of our revelry everywhere, since this is our portion, this our lot!
(10) 'As for the upright man who is poor, let us oppress him; let us not spare the widow, nor respect old age, white-haired with many years.
(11) Let our might be the yardstick of right, since weakness argues its own futility.
(12) Let us lay traps for the upright man, since he annoys us and opposes our way of life, reproaches us for our sins against the Law, and accuses us of sins against our upbringing.
(13) He claims to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
(14) We see him as a reproof to our way of thinking, the very sight of him weighs our spirits down;
(15) for his kind of life is not like other people's, and his ways are quite different.
(16) In his opinion we are counterfeit; he avoids our ways as he would filth; he proclaims the final end of the upright as blessed and boasts of having God for his father.
(17) Let us see if what he says is true, and test him to see what sort of end he will have.
(18) For if the upright man is God's son, God will help him and rescue him from the clutches of his enemies.
(19) Let us test him with cruelty and with torture, and thus explore this gentleness of his and put his patience to the test.
(20) Let us condemn him to a shameful death since God will rescue him -- or so he claims.'
(21) This is the way they reason, but they are misled, since their malice makes them blind.
(22) They do not know the hidden things of God, they do not hope for the reward of holiness, they do not believe in a reward for blameless souls.
(23) For God created human beings to be immortal, he made them as an image of his own nature;
(24) Death came into the world only through the Devil's envy, as those who belong to him find to their cost.
(1) But the souls of the upright are in the hands of God, and no torment can touch them.
(2) To the unenlightened, they appeared to die, their departure was regarded as disaster,
(3) their leaving us like annihilation; but they are at peace.
(4) If, as it seemed to us, they suffered punishment, their hope was rich with immortality;
(5) slight was their correction, great will their blessings be. God was putting them to the test and has proved them worthy to be with him;
(6) he has tested them like gold in a furnace, and accepted them as a perfect burnt offering.
(7) At their time of visitation, they will shine out; as sparks run through the stubble, so will they.
(8) They will judge nations, rule over peoples, and the Lord will be their king for ever.
(9) Those who trust in him will understand the truth, those who are faithful will live with him in love; for grace and mercy await his holy ones, and he intervenes on behalf of his chosen.
(10) But the godless will be duly punished for their reasoning, for having neglected the upright and deserted the Lord.
(11) Yes, wretched are they who scorn wisdom and discipline: their hope is void, their toil unavailing, their achievements unprofitable;
(12) their wives are reckless, their children depraved, their descendants accursed.
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